mreisner
Well-known member
Which part of the difference between knockoff and counterfeit can't you comprehend?
Why does Snap-On continuously make people rage?
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mreisner
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Maybe I should give you a hint? Sweeping second hand....
They are not necessary “industrial espionage “ ?
mreisner
Well-known member
I've got one of the short 3/8 ones coming tomorrow, I'll post where it is from.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
The ratchet has not had any failures since then, which is good. My main issue is the switch/lever. It seems to need swung very far to the right/left to engage. Visually it looks off, compared to other brands. Sometimes just moving it "normally" with my thumb doesn't engage it and it will freewheel. It's almost as though I need to manually push the lever until it stops, rather than being helped into that position by the detent spring and ball usually pushing against the pawl inside the mechanism.
It sounds like a minor complaint, but boy is it annoying in a tight spot or when you have sweat dripping down your forehead. It's a shame because it has a good size, a great handle, and the mechanism feels good to use.
Dakotadadv8
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Snapon and Harbor Freight are getting free marketing from these posts.
LOL.Snapon and Harbor Freight are getting free marketing from these posts.
Good for Snap-On. Good American company that employs people all over the globe. They own Bahco tools, too.
Chinese knock offs of Chinese made tools. The irony.
mreisner
Well-known member
A few years ago I bought a replacement battery for my DJI drone, it was advertised as a genuine DJI battery. When I got it it was a knockoff and not a very good one. Arguing with the seller on eBay who claimed to be a DJI dealer he kept insisting that the battery was" of the good quality" and couldn't understand why I was upset that he ripped me off. EBay made it right and they booted him also.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Snapon and Harbor Freight are getting free marketing from these posts.
Snap on - please sponsor me and I will shill whatever you want on this forum.
neophyte
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neophyte
Well-known member
Knocking Off another manufacturer’s product, and branding, and packaging, is “Counterfeiting” and “Trademark Infringement”,
Not “Industrial Espionage”.
“Industrial Espionage”, refers to stealing “Trade Secrets”, regarding manufacturing techniques and materials, usually thru spying on your competitors manufacturing process.
Simply analyzing and reverse engineering a sample of you competitors product you purchased on the open market, “legally”, would not be considered “Industrial Espionage”.
Stealing a sample of a product for analysis before that product is available for sale, would likely be considered “Industrial Espionage”.
Paying your competitors employees for “contractually guarded” secrets of your competitors manufacturing process, would be considered “Industrial Espionage, as would breaking into your competitors manufacturing site, to copy blueprints, or formulas, or manufacturing processes, with hacking into a competitors computer system the same.
CGarage
Well-known member
They should sponsor you. Your opinions are highly valued and you do more work with tools than many members who post regularly.
thool
Well-known member
Someone probably paid $16,000 on the drone because they assumed it would be higher quality, and therefore they wouldn't be labeled as a cheap *** buyer. Truth is, quality and cost don't always correlate; there may be industrial drones that can be had for well under $10,000 that have the quality you expected from the one you disassembled.
This is why some people start at low price and work their way up to higher prices. Somewhere along that continuum, the consumer will say, "That's the quality level I am comfortable with," and purchase the product. Others will assume that quality begins at a certain price point, and begin their assessment there. Brand loyalty is absolutely a factor in some people's decisions.
This thread make me , which is great because I need one.
The idea that Snap On evokes jealousy is silly. And despite all the vague allusions to how hard it is to make tools and steel, it's not really a place where significant gaps exist. Maybe a decade or two ago, but not really today. Where the (almost always slim) advantages exist for Snap On, it's as much that they can afford to put some additional cost in to achieve whatever it requires to achieve it. But It's not remotely enough to justify their premium. If people want to pay it anyway, that's their choice.
, which is great because I need one.The idea that Snap On evokes jealousy is silly. And despite all the vague allusions to how hard it is to make tools and steel, it's not really a place where significant gaps exist. Maybe a decade or two ago, but not really today. Where the (almost always slim) advantages exist for Snap On, it's as much that they can afford to put some additional cost in to achieve whatever it requires to achieve it. But It's not remotely enough to justify their premium. If people want to pay it anyway, that's their choice.
richfinn
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Ultradog MN
Well-known member
Rereading this thread makes me wonder which side is doing most of the raging - the Snap On guys or the other side.
I'm temped to give every one new names.
The Snap On-ers maybe call em the Fairy Dusters.
The other side the Mediocre Jokers
And if you are in the middle, you can just say you're a Dogmatic Pragmatic and let it all slide by.
I'm temped to give every one new names.
The Snap On-ers maybe call em the Fairy Dusters.
The other side the Mediocre Jokers
And if you are in the middle, you can just say you're a Dogmatic Pragmatic and let it all slide by.
richfinn
Well-known member
After forty years of working on cars I've slowly come to the conclusion you always need good quality hand tools.
The brand doesn't matter so much as long as the tools do the job consistently and reliably.
I've seen F1 mechanics working with Facom and Beta
I've seen Porsche Endurance mechanics working with Hazet
I've seen Aeroplane Mechanics working with Stahlwille
I've worked with all of those brands and Snap-On, Ko-ken, Bosch, Vessel, MAC and Knipex and many others.
Snap-On make some really great tools and have a very distinct design language going on and I own a good selection of their stuff. To be 100% honest though I don't think everything they make is "The Best" (although some of it certainly is).
The only real whinging you will get from me is that their pricing is ****** ridiculous in the UK
NB: I only do metric nowadays which the more reasonably priced Euro and Japanese brands cover very well, so there's that
The brand doesn't matter so much as long as the tools do the job consistently and reliably.
I've seen F1 mechanics working with Facom and Beta
I've seen Porsche Endurance mechanics working with Hazet
I've seen Aeroplane Mechanics working with Stahlwille
I've worked with all of those brands and Snap-On, Ko-ken, Bosch, Vessel, MAC and Knipex and many others.
Snap-On make some really great tools and have a very distinct design language going on and I own a good selection of their stuff. To be 100% honest though I don't think everything they make is "The Best" (although some of it certainly is).
The only real whinging you will get from me is that their pricing is ****** ridiculous in the UK
NB: I only do metric nowadays which the more reasonably priced Euro and Japanese brands cover very well, so there's that
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I think these categories fit your world view and self image only.
There absolutely are categories in this context, but you haven’t been around long enough to have even scratched the surface.
Ultradog MN
Well-known member
Hmmm
Are you one of those in the first group I mentioned?
Most of Beta stuff has a COO of China. Sacrilege on this forum. No way that tool could possibly work!
Sarcasm.
A lot of weekend warriors really exaggerate the situation here. There’s nothing wrong with buying cheap tools if that’s what a person wants to spend. Nothing wrong with buying higher end tools either. What they don’t seem to get is that the higher end tool is often worth it for day in and day out use. For tools that get light duty use (outside of metrology), not necessarily.This thread make me
The idea that Snap On evokes jealousy is silly. And despite all the vague allusions to how hard it is to make tools and steel, it's not really a place where significant gaps exist. Maybe a decade or two ago, but not really today. Where the (almost always slim) advantages exist for Snap On, it's as much that they can afford to put some additional cost in to achieve whatever it requires to achieve it. But It's not remotely enough to justify their premium. If people want to pay it anyway, that's their choice.
The humor comes in where people treat a ratchet like an automobile purchase.
VolvoRyan
Well-known member
Everyone rages. After all, isn't 'murica(!) is the land of stupid dichotomies?
-Ryan
VolvoRyan
Well-known member
Can’t just buy a ratchet and use it.
It’s has to be the best, or the best priced, something - Anything that will elevate our emotion's to a higher place, than just simply removing/replacing a fastener..
That just seems boring and mundane.
I’m guilty I still have my first small set of tools overpriced Snap On from almost 50 years ago
I stiil have my cheap-*** thorsen tools from that same wonderful time.
It’s has to be the best, or the best priced, something - Anything that will elevate our emotion's to a higher place, than just simply removing/replacing a fastener..
That just seems boring and mundane.
I’m guilty I still have my first small set of tools overpriced Snap On from almost 50 years ago
I stiil have my cheap-*** thorsen tools from that same wonderful time.
By “use it” you mean polish it to the highest luster and apply a light coat of a specialty oil with the finest microfiber cloth available and place it in its padded foam tray in the big drawer reserved for all of your 1/2” drive flex head ratchets?
I actually forgot how much my Kobalt 3/8 drive ratchet sucked until I used it again the other day. Seriously too much back drag. I couldn't spin the bolt in by hand or with the extension but the ratchet kept backing it out. Ridonkalous.
Shoulda grabbed....anything...else. But it came in the same "bleau moulded" case as the actually quite good sockets.
CGarage
Well-known member
I know of a mechanic who has a shop that is stocked with 100% Snap-On, down to the beer keg and BBQ. I think he’s a hack, and he has done questionable repairs.
As a former customer, his tool choices were instrumental in me forming an opinion of him and his worldview. The demonstrated ability to overspend on the Snap-On beer keg and bbq contributed to this. I’d much rather have no beer keg in a business environment and if I had a shop grill, it would be a Weber or Green Egg, likely a better value than Snap-On, from people who are grill experts!
It is a mistake to only buy from one brand in my opinion. There isn’t one manufacturer that gets it right on every tool they manufacture.
You need different tools for different jobs, also.
As a former customer, his tool choices were instrumental in me forming an opinion of him and his worldview. The demonstrated ability to overspend on the Snap-On beer keg and bbq contributed to this. I’d much rather have no beer keg in a business environment and if I had a shop grill, it would be a Weber or Green Egg, likely a better value than Snap-On, from people who are grill experts!
It is a mistake to only buy from one brand in my opinion. There isn’t one manufacturer that gets it right on every tool they manufacture.
You need different tools for different jobs, also.
I can use any old keg but I'd definitely have to have their silk underwear and flip flops and bathrobe. Kind of a Huge Heffner thing.
CGarage
Well-known member
A man is known by the tools he keeps.
I don’t want to paint a picture of you with these “tools” in your rig, next to your Gearwrench, it all sounds a bit much!
You probably have the fuzzy dice and handcuffs stashed in the cab next to the “Motel 6 and Super 8” guidebook.
A sticker of the Simpsons ‘comic book guy’ riding shotgun on your rear view mirror.
How am I doing here? Your silk skivvies, sandals, and shawl were lonely!
I don't think you can associate anything personal with tools that can be bought for money. That's where Ultra dog is. Every special interest group I know of falls for this. In woodworking, Festool is the Snap On; well made, ridiculously priced, so naturally anyone who owns a Festool product is a poser, amateur, brain washed, small pecker you name it. The association between people and their stuff is so beneath you. There is literally no connection. People buy things for all kinds of reasons (not all of them logical/rational)
No, you can’t. Most things that can be done with power tools can be done with hand tools. It’s amazing what can be accomplished with simple hand tools. I’ve always saw a value, maybe even pride, in getting by with the fewest tools, the simplest methods. Not kidding, I still prefer using really rudimentary tools like plumb bobs and slide rules. I’m a big fan of Clickspring and what he shows is possible with simple, hand made tools.
Lately though, even I have to admit that there are limits to such a minimalist approach. Just because I can flatten an 8’ live edge table top using a plane, winding sticks, and chalk doesn’t mean I want. After devoting a a certain number of hours to accomplish a rote task that can be finished in 20 minutes with a power tool, even I have to admit spending the money on a flattening bit and jig gives me the time back to accomplish other tasks, and ultimately puts more money in my pocket. But that’s life.
CGarage
Well-known member
I disagree. The lack of variety and unilateral thinking this shows to me is more where I am coming from, rather than overwhelming loyalty to one brand.
Meursault74
Well-known member
Ultradog MN
Well-known member
You mentioned me but I do not get your drift.
You can say I'm right or you can call me a dipshit - both are okay and both are at times correct but please explain what you meant.
Thanks.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
FWIW people normally get those products "free" during promotions or as part of a contest. The more you spend, the more options you have to win typically.
I won a snap-on Segway type device. It hurt my calfs to use, so I gave it to a friend. He says peak speed is almost 20mph, and he uses it to walk his dogs.
Actually the driver just gave it to me because I bought a bunch of stuff back to back.
No, just use it.
I used to attend estate/business auctions that sold stuff owned by pro mechanics, or stuff from good size pro auto shops, likely started business/careers during the 50's, 60's.
All various brands tool truck stuff. Tools, stools, test equipment, ect.
Just looked like old, Not rusty, well worn tools. Looking at all the other personal **** in the auction, looked like they made pretty good dough, over the years.
Not sure when this strange obsession over tools started.
Grandpa was a master carpenter/woodworker, he owned a German made nothing. Dad was a pro mechanic his stuff was whatever NAPA or Sturm's Auto parts had in stock.
uh... the exaggeration is on the weekend warrior side, eh?
There's zero substantive, metric-based, statistically-significant information that would say an Icon tool isn't up to daily use. Most of what is posted here is opinions. Most testing on YouTube tends to be biased one way or the other, or with folks like Project Farm well-intentioned but often flawed testing. Bs.t even the guys at TTC would admit their testing does not meet the bar for statistically-significant sample size to be considered data. But as a guy who interacts often with the part of my company that does reliability and durability testing, it's the closest thing I've seen to the kind of repeatability that allows for comparison of tests from multiple sessions and well-designed targeting. The Tools Tested guy is pretty good too, at least with stuff like Torque Wrenches (repeatable, large cycle counts, decent methodology, etc.), but also suffers from sample size.
Funny though. The Icon stuff does pretty darn well with those last two guys...
I also hear enough guys on Reddit who say they use Icon in their job as techs that I think the "light duty" thing is a crock. The only beefs I hear are the narrow span of the product portfolio and the lack of easy purchase for singles.
Ultimately I don't care if people want to spend their money on Snap On. I have zero doubts about the overall quality. I have some Snap On tools. I have a lot of Icon. I also have SK, Matco, Ko-ken, Tekton and a variety of other brands. I also have zero doubts that a full time tech could take my set and do just fine. I have no problems with my tools not performing or breaking.
Other than flare wrenches and a very-few other things, there's no substantive gap in the performance of the tools. If the truck-model service is "worth it" to you, then it's your choice. But the "investment protection" line people throw around is a load of ****. You could buy two sets of Icon everything (for backups while you exercise the warranty) and put the difference the single Snap On set would cost in an IRA or other investment in a simple index fund and do vastly better financially. And your work would still get done.
I'm not sure what you mean. There's a LOT more going on with a ratchet than a wrench, and a bad ratchet can make a job miserable. My Sunex ratchets are genuinely awful to use - gobs of backdrag and a tendency to self-reverse. My Icon, Snap-On and Ko-Ken ratchets are all great.
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