why don't Harbor Freight tools work with Milwaukee batteries?

[dlwilson]

My subject line may be confusing, but why doesn't Harbor Freight make their Hercules cordless tools compatible with Milwaukee M12 batteries? I think a price-conscious consumer like myself would consider Hercules if I could use it with my collection of Milwaukee tools, batteries, and chargers. Maybe even buy a Harbor Freight M12-style battery to try with my Milwaukee stuff.

Is it a legal restriction? I see people selling aftermarket M12 batteries, so probably not. Does it somehow make business sense for HF to have their own proprietary battery? I could see why a perceived higher quality manufacturer like Milwaukee wouldn't make their stuff compatible with a lower quality outfit like HF, but it seems like the reverse would let HF take some of Milwaukee's market.

I get why tool manufacturers want to lock you into their battery system, but there might be advantages to opening up for some companies.

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

Why doesn't a a Dewalt battery pack interchange with a Milwaukee? Why doesn't a Makita battery pack interchange with a Dewalt? Different brands, different designs. HF's brands are no different. Lots of things in life are this way
Also there may be patent issues as well.

 

[richfinn]

Because they are really in the business of selling you a complete platform of power tools, batteries and chargers, once they have you hooked into that platform of tools it's a license to print money!!!!

This is where air tools always win for me, I can buy any brand I like at a reasonable price and screw in a fitting that works, and somebody else is paying to power it

I think cordless tools are great and have a couple of them for convenience, but a lot of it is pointless for auto mechanics in a workshop with good air

I see guys using $700 cordless impacts to remove lug nuts and driveshaft nuts a few feet from an airline and just don't get it???

I get using a cordless screwdriver to strip an interior without dragging a dirty airline inside a vehicle, that makes sense

 

[dlwilson]

Because they are really in the business of selling you a complete platform of power tools, batteries and chargers, once they have you hooked into that platform of tools it's a license to print money!!!!

Oh, I get that. I'm just thinking that an alternate strategy might be to siphon off some of Milwaukee's customers.

Like, I have a lot of Snap-On stuff, but there is also HF stuff in my box because I don't need SO quality for everything. Imagine if every socket company had a proprietary design for their ratchet drive, and you had to commit to one manufacturer for all of your socket, extension, and ratchets.

 

[nbpt100]

Oh, I get that. I'm just thinking that an alternate strategy might be to siphon off some of Milwaukee's customers.

Like, I have a lot of Snap-On stuff, but there is also HF stuff in my box because I don't need SO quality for everything. Imagine if every socket company had a proprietary design for their ratchet drive, and you had to commit to one manufacturer for all of your socket, extension, and ratchets.

I think Rich is right on the money here. If this strategy had any merit it would have been used a long time ago. They want brand loyalty and more market share. In other words they do not want the door open for you to go to the next vendor and spend your money with them. What is good for consumers is not often good for the seller.

 

[richfinn]

Oh, I get that. I'm just thinking that an alternate strategy might be to siphon off some of Milwaukee's customers.

Like, I have a lot of Snap-On stuff, but there is also HF stuff in my box because I don't need SO quality for everything. Imagine if every socket company had a proprietary design for their ratchet drive, and you had to commit to one manufacturer for all of your socket, extension, and ratchets.

Thats a good point, I suspect if sockets were just being invented today they would all have different non standard drives, because the world is a much greedier more cynical place

Maybe you could design an adaptor and beat them at their own game

 

[Blue98GT]

Not sure about the M12 stuff but they make adapters to cross batteries for the 18v stuff.

https://struggleville.net/adapters/

HF probably doesn't design their tools to fit (insert brand name) batteries for 2 reasons.

1. The money is made in the batteries and chargers.
2. If they made it fit Milwaukee people would ***** about how it doesn't fit Dewalt.

 

[qqzj]

There must be some legal issues. Otherwise, HF can sell replacement batteries for all these brands and seriously hurt them.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[zendriver]

I always thought Harbor freight was a tool retailer not a manufacturer And that the products they sold were somewhat generic Asian made products, that might be retailed under different names Globally :

Hercules battery and charger is like $75 hardly seem like a budget plus to her if one is interested in their tools.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[dnschmidt]

Here's a word or two for you: lawyers and lawsuits. If you think the boys at Milwaukee are going to let Harbor Freight use their batteries you're delusional and need to seek professional help immediately.

 

[quickfarms]

I was given a milk crate full of old makita cordless tools and there were 12v, 14.4v and 18v tools in there

The 18v tools were the old style battery and I use a lot of the lithium ion batteries so I bought an adapter for them.

Most of the aftermarket batteries I see are being sold by a few battery companies, that seem to specialize in older discontinued batteries, or on line by sellers that are off shore so enforcing patents is almost impossible.

I think if any real chain started to infringe on any companies patent they would be in court very quickly

 

[1982fxr]

Thats a good point, I suspect if sockets were just being invented today they would all have different non standard drives, because the world is a much greedier more cynical place

Maybe you could design an adaptor and beat them at their own game

You sure about that?

 

[richfinn]

You sure about that?

Nope, I'm not 100% sure, but I know I don't like it, whatever it is??

 

[AA/FC]

Is this really a serious question, or are you practicing your trolling skills?

"why don't Harbor Freight tools work with Milwaukee batteries?"

Because Harbor Freight is in the business of selling THEIR OWN tools..... they don't sell Milwaukee products. If they made a tool to function with a COMPETITORS battery, then Harbor Freight wouldn't sell nearly as many batteries and therefore they would make less profit. It's pretty simple.

Why doesn't a Chevy small block cylinder head bolt directly onto a Ford small block engine? Or vise-versa?

.

 

[richfinn]

I think the point of the "hypothetical question" is, if all power tool batteries for all brands were standardised (like our socket drives are). Would the power tool industry sell more tools in general?

 

[finn]

Modern battery packs are equipped with a chip and electronics to limit temperature during charging. Who is responsible when your generic ******* battery overheats and your shop burns down.

Also, in many instances the tool is sold at or near cost. The profit comes with the sale of batteries. Connecting technology/ design is likely patented or copyrighted to protect the original manufacturer.

 

[AA/FC]

I think the point of the "hypothetical question" is, if all power tool batteries for all brands were standardised (like our socket drives are). Would the power tool industry sell more tools in general?

No. That would penalize the "quality" tool manufacturers for making a better product, and give an unfair advantage to "******" tool companies who make low quality tools. Why level the playing field? If the "******" tool company wants to sell more tools, offer a better product.

If ALL car manufacturers around the world used the EXACT same engine in every car, would the automotive industry sell more cars in general?

 

[richfinn]

No. That would penalize the "quality" tool manufacturers for making a better product, and give an unfair advantage to "******" tool companies who make low quality tools. Why level the playing field? If the "******" tool company wants to sell more tools, offer a better product.

If ALL car manufacturers around the world used the EXACT same engine in every car, would the automotive industry sell more cars in general?

I'm not sure that's true, Snap-On does OK selling sockets in standardised drive sizes

Scan tool manufacturers seem to do OK selling products using a standardised 16 pin plug

VAG seem pretty successful selling four brands of car with the same engines (in Europe at least)

Vehicle batteries are standardised pretty much

Most countries have standardised AC voltage wall outlets

 

[M635_Guy]

Realistically, we don't want common batteries as much as we think we do - some brands to a good job maximizing their platforms, offering options, protecting their tools from overheating, etc. Some just go for...affordability... Personally, I wouldn't trust a third-party battery, except maybe in an LED light.

It would limit innovation and form factors, and probably degrade progress in features.

It would also deprive the companies of the profit that allows them to develop their product lines and remain healthy companies.

I don't think we, the consumers, would benefit in that world.

 

[AA/FC]

I'm not sure that's true, Snap-On does OK selling sockets in standardised drive sizes

Scan tool manufacturers seem to do OK selling products using a standardised 16 pin plug

VAG seem pretty successful selling four brands of car with the same engines (in Europe at least)

Vehicle batteries are standardised pretty much

Most countries have standardised AC voltage wall outlets

Okay, well.... it's obvious that we will never agree on this topic so instead of arguing back and forth for several pages, lets just agree to disagree.

I will leave it at this... I hope they never standardize cordless tool batteries because that would essentially end any future innovation. If we would've had standardized tool batteries back when cordless tools became popular, we'd all still be stuck with NiCad batteries today, and our modern-day cordless tools would still be gutless. If you remove the competition, there is no incentive to create a better product. God I hope those days never become reality. I like having a selection to choose from. You must not like having choices? It's better if someone makes a decision for you?

And just because 4 car manufacturers in Europe who use the same engine (according to you) are still selling cars does not mean the customer likes it..... they simply don't have a choice, but still need to buy a car. They'd probably like it even better if they had a choice.

 

[richfinn]

Okay, well.... it's obvious that we will never agree on this topic so instead of arguing back and forth for several pages, lets just agree to disagree.

I will leave it at this... I hope they never standardize cordless tool batteries because that would essentially end any future innovation. If we would've had standardized tool batteries back when cordless tools became popular, we'd all still be stuck with NiCad batteries today, and our modern-day cordless tools would still be gutless. If you remove the competition, there is no incentive to create a better product. God I hope those days never become reality. I like having a selection to choose from. You must not like having choices? It's better if someone makes a decision for you?

And just because 4 car manufacturers in Europe who use the same engine (according to you) are still selling cars does not mean the customer likes it..... they simply don't have a choice, but still need to buy a car. They'd probably like it even better if they had a choice.

Fair points, I'm not for or against standardisation, just interested in others peoples ideas

Agree that innovation might possibly suffer

I think recycling/sustainability could possibly be better with less obsolescence

Maybe it could help engineers in developing countries

I like choice, I just want to cherry pick the best tool and not be tied to any one brand

 

[M635_Guy]

Okay, well.... it's obvious that we will never agree on this topic so instead of arguing back and forth for several pages, lets just agree to disagree.

I will leave it at this... I hope they never standardize cordless tool batteries because that would essentially end any future innovation. If we would've had standardized tool batteries back when cordless tools became popular, we'd all still be stuck with NiCad batteries today, and our modern-day cordless tools would still be gutless. If you remove the competition, there is no incentive to create a better product. God I hope those days never become reality. I like having a selection to choose from. You must not like having choices? It's better if someone makes a decision for you?

Agree with all of this.

And just because 4 car manufacturers in Europe who use the same engine (according to you) are still selling cars does not mean the customer likes it..... they simply don't have a choice, but still need to buy a car. They'd probably like it even better if they had a choice.

He's having a merry time trying to force-fit sorta-similar examples to support his point. In this case, he's referring to Volkswagon, Skoda, etc., which are all subdivisions of Volkswagon. While they do largely share platforms/motors it's not a good comparison/example for a wide variety of reasons, not the least of which is they're all owned by the same company (GM would have been an easier example)

 

[richfinn]

Agree with all of this.


He's having a merry time trying to force-fit sorta-similar examples to support his point. In this case, he's referring to Volkswagon, Skoda, etc., which are all subdivisions of Volkswagon. While they do largely share platforms/motors it's not a good comparison/example for a wide variety of reasons, not the least of which is they're all owned by the same company (GM would have been an easier example)

Agreed, VAG is probably a bad example as they are quite good at sharing platforms without the knowledge of the consumers!!!!!

I'm not having a pop at other people's point of view, just interested what would happen, so apologies for any offence

 

[dlwilson]

All good points. I guess I just don't have the legal or business expertise to know why no company is making stuff compatible with others. It is pretty obvious that proprietary batteries lock you in to a single company.

The only thing I can think of that is remotely similar is cell phone chargers and data cables. I remember when every brand of phone, and even individual models within one manufacturer, had difference cables. Now we just have two, Apple and Android. Not sure it's the same situation, though.

 

[Parrothead]

Okay, well.... it's obvious that we will never agree on this topic so instead of arguing back and forth for several pages, lets just agree to disagree.

I will leave it at this... I hope they never standardize cordless tool batteries because that would essentially end any future innovation. If we would've had standardized tool batteries back when cordless tools became popular, we'd all still be stuck with NiCad batteries today, and our modern-day cordless tools would still be gutless. If you remove the competition, there is no incentive to create a better product. God I hope those days never become reality. I like having a selection to choose from. You must not like having choices? It's better if someone makes a decision for you?

And just because 4 car manufacturers in Europe who use the same engine (according to you) are still selling cars does not mean the customer likes it..... they simply don't have a choice, but still need to buy a car. They'd probably like it even better if they had Ea choice.

I think if Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki can all share swappable batteries, it shouldn’t be too detrimental to the bottom line of DeWalt, Milwaukee or Makita should they decide to form an alliance with the battery platforms.

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/26/honda-kawasaki-suzuki-yamaha-motorcycle-batteries/

I have a 20v Craftsman Bolt-On fast charger to use with my 20v Biswaye Black & Decker knockoff battery and it does just fine. In fact you can use the 20v Porter Cable batters in both the Craftsman charger and the B&D lawn tools if you file off one tab. Takes about 1 minute. To go one step further, I’m using that same Biswaye battery in a Ryobi inflator via an adapter.

 

[Parrothead]

Here’s the Ryobi with the B&D battery. Ryobi gained a sale with the tool that I wouldn’t have purchased if an adapter wasn’t available.

 

[1982fxr]

I think if Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki can all share swappable batteries, it shouldn’t be too detrimental to the bottom line of DeWalt, Milwaukee or Makita should they decide to form an alliance with the battery platforms.

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/26/honda-kawasaki-suzuki-yamaha-motorcycle-batteries/

I have a 20v Craftsman Bolt-On fast charger to use with my 20v Biswaye Black & Decker knockoff battery and it does just fine. In fact you can use the 20v Porter Cable batters in both the Craftsman charger and the B&D lawn tools if you file off one tab. Takes about 1 minute. To go one step further, I’m using that same Biswaye battery in a Ryobi inflator via an adapter.

A motorcycle has a lot more parts and everything else for the manufacturer to make money off of than a cordless drill.

I just spent $800 on my bike. In my lifetime I've not spent one penny on fixing, maintaining or modifying a cordless tool.

 

[bczygan]

Do the HF consumables and accessories work with other brands of welders?

Bill

 

[nbpt100]

Standardizing would be great for the consumer but not for the sellers that like planned obsolescence. How many of us have decided to go and buy a new Drill (or whatever battery powered tool) when the batteries all died? When you looked at the battery replacement costs you learn you can get a brand new Drill kit with two new batteries and charger for the same or near same cost.
If batteries were all standardized the costs would be less just by the shear economies of scale. They would be ubiquitous. You could buy one at CVS(probably) You would not be upgrading and throwing out your power tools as quickly.

It may be good for the consumer, the environment etc. But not good for the Corporations. It would take an act of God to get a couple of these guys to agree on standardization. What would it take to get every manufacturer to agree? (Its rhetorical...no answer required). It would be more practical or believable for SBD to do it with all or some of the tool brands they own. Dewalt, Porter Cable, Craftsman, etc. But They won't. It would require some massive change in the business environment to make standardizing more profitable. I don't know what that would be. I am not that creative to imagine anything. I am sure many members here may.

 

[richfinn]

Standardizing would be great for the consumer but not for the sellers that like planned obsolescence. How many of us have decided to go and buy a new Drill (or whatever battery powered tool) when the batteries all died? When you looked at the battery replacement costs you learn you can get a brand new Drill kit with two new batteries and charger for the same or near same cost.
If batteries were all standardized the costs would be less just by the shear economies of scale. They would be ubiquitous. You could buy one at CVS(probably) You would not be upgrading and throwing out your power tools as quickly.

It may be good for the consumer, the environment etc. But not good for the Corporations. It would take an act of God to get a couple of these guys to agree on standardization. What would it take to get every manufacturer to agree? (Its rhetorical...no answer required). It would be more practical or believable for SBD to do it with all or some of the tool brands they own. Dewalt, Porter Cable, Craftsman, etc. But They won't. It would require some massive change in the business environment to make standardizing more profitable. I don't know what that would be. I am not that creative to imagine anything. I am sure many members here may.

The environmental angle sounds like a winner to me, it worked for OBD11

 

[American Locomotive]

Batteries are some of the most profitable parts for tool manufacturers.

Take a Milwaukee 9.0 battery for example. Each one of those batteries has less than $30 of Sanyo 18650 battery cells. The battery casing is less than a dollar to manufacture, and the electronics and pack assembly is going to amount to less than $5. So basically you're all-in on that battery for maybe $36.

That battery then sells at retail for $200.

 

[p00p]

Thats a good point, I suspect if sockets were just being invented today they would all have different non standard drives, because the world is a much greedier more cynical place

Maybe you could design an adaptor and beat them at their own game

through sockets are kinda like this.

https://www.harborfreight.com/sae-m...QC5-EIoAeNyrYAzYa8dBD9giDduZ1rURoCYUEQAvD_BwE

 

[AA/FC]

The environmental angle sounds like a winner to me, it worked for OBD11

How?

As far as I remember, here in the United States, the federal government mandated a standardized vehicle port connection and standardized software so the general public could diagnose their own cars and keep the manufacturers/dealers from holding a repair monopoly. That standard is now called OBDII. That "standard" has had many changes over the years (always backwards compatible) and does NOT keep manufacturers from improving their products. Vehicle emissions really don't have anything do specifically with OBDII. Emission standards were around long before OBDII, before OBDI, and even before cars ever had computers.

 

[M635_Guy]

Agreed, VAG is probably a bad example as they are quite good at sharing platforms without the knowledge of the consumers!!!!!

LoL - I dunno - Skoda and SEAT were acquisitions I think. At one point, GM had stuff all over the place. That's just smart business, but it's all to the benefit of one company, though it helps keep prices lower, service easier, etc. for the consumers too...

I'm not having a pop at other people's point of view, just interested what would happen, so apologies for any offence

We're good - sorry for being chippy.

 

[PelicanPines]

Any tool can take any (correct voltage) battery... provided you have a caliper, FreeCAD, 3D Printer, Soldering iron, some clips, some wire.

But yea... OP, I feel your pain.

 

[richfinn]

How?

As far as I remember, here in the United States, the federal government mandated a standardized vehicle port connection and standardized software so the general public could diagnose their own cars and keep the manufacturers/dealers from holding a repair monopoly. That standard is now called OBDII. That "standard" has had many changes over the years (always backwards compatible) and does NOT keep manufacturers from improving their products. Vehicle emissions really don't have anything do specifically with OBDII. Emission standards were around long before OBDII, before OBDI, and even before cars ever had computers.

Yes, I've read about USA regulations, We call it EOBD in Europe

That same 16 pin socket is now global, principally (at least in Europe) so that emission related faults are readily accessible to be diagnosed and repaired in an attempt to protect the environment without having to rely on vehicle manufacturers

What would happen if they mandated a particular shaped battery pack for all cordless tools that had to meet some basic criteria but could also be developed by the tool manufacturers

Let's say for environmental reasons for the sake of discussion

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just interested in how some products end up becoming standardised and if it really hinders profitability or creates competition??

If they ironed out rapid obsolescence could they start charging more for better quality tools made in the USA or Europe for example???

Don't worry I'm not a communist trying to destroy Milwaukee or anything

 

[nbpt100]

I believe OBD Eleven is a separate thing from OBDII.

 

[richfinn]

through sockets are kinda like this.

https://www.harborfreight.com/sae-m...QC5-EIoAeNyrYAzYa8dBD9giDduZ1rURoCYUEQAvD_BwE

A good point, I have some but don't use them very often as they aren't really compatible with my impact wrench, good for serpentine belt tools though

 

[richfinn]

I believe OBD Eleven is a separate thing from OBDII.

It's the shape of the plug that's important in this discussion, the technicalities aren't that important, but I think you are correct there is VW scan tool called "OBD eleven" or something along those lines

 

[Skin]

Yes, I've read about USA regulations, We call it EOBD in Europe

That same 16 pin socket is now global, principally (at least in Europe) so that emission related faults are readily accessible to be diagnosed and repaired in an attempt to protect the environment without having to rely on vehicle manufacturers

What would happen if they mandated a particular shaped battery pack for all cordless tools that had to meet some basic criteria but could also be developed by the tool manufacturers

Let's say for environmental reasons for the sake of discussion

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just interested in how some products end up becoming standardised and if it really hinders profitability or creates competition??

If they ironed out rapid obsolescence could they start charging more for better quality tools made in the USA or Europe for example???

Don't worry I'm not a communist trying to destroy Milwaukee or anything

OBDII isnt a good example. Only basic repair information is universal that relates to the vehicles emissions systems. Most of the data vehicles log is proprietary and requires authorization from the scanner to access and its getting more restrictive every year.

It would be like if there was a universal battery but it only let the tool achieve 50% of its functional power where if you buy the branded battery you get access to full power. You still have to pay to play.