Sockets & wrenches are used for a lot more than cars. And fasteners were used for a lot longer than the last couple of decades. So if you're in USA, nearly everything made in USA (Not just cars, but everything)was built with SAE fasteners up til about 25 years ago or less, it would be ridiculous for an entry level starter set not to include them. Still an awful lot of stuff out there you might need those SAE tools for.
Why entry level socket sets still include SAE?
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Badgerstate
Well-known member
Id agree that it really depends where you live and what you work on. As someone who mostly has owned Japanese cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles and ATVs, as well as Honda power equipment; Ive always mostly used the metric stuff but some of the domestic and especially the older domestic stuff uses SAE.
NoahG
Well-known member
I use a fair amount of threaded inserts, and the SAE threaded ones use a MM hex key for installation.
I must have been asleep when the Russian and Chinese astronauts were landed on the moon!
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Cool... didn't know Russia and or China actually put humans/people on the Moon... wait... they didn't ... OH... I get it now... Joke...
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Cool... didn't know Russia and or China actually put humans/people on the Moon... wait... they didn't ... OH... I get it now... Joke...
On the same page as Spaulding's reply, I said I misspoke and meant to say "landed", not manned landings. Not sure you did get it.
Yeah, as mentioned in the second sentence of my post containing the joke where I said "lets see if I can remember it correctly". Well, obviously I did NOT remember it and/or type it correctly. lol
You get the point though....
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Yeah, as mentioned in the second sentence of my post containing the joke where I said "lets see if I can remember it correctly". Well, obviously I did NOT remember it and/or type it correctly. lol
You get the point though....
No worries.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
On the same page as Spaulding's reply, I said I misspoke and meant to say "landed", not manned landings. Not sure you did get it.
Sorry... missed your second comment... my eyes were filled with tears of funny from the first one...
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Sorry... missed your second comment... my eyes were filled with tears of funny from the first one...
I'm sure someone will do it another time in a few posts.
Roast Beef
Member
No, they say it the other way round, 4x2, 6x2 and so on. Winds me up.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
guitarbutt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2017
- Messages
- 237
Plenty of vehicles are still driving down the road without metric parts. Just because metric exists doesn't mean sae doesn't. You'll find a lot of uses for both
When the Big Three were converting to metric, there were an awful lot of fasteners like that. Easy to buy new bolts, harder to change designs to use a different thread.
It was printed with an ink color that was not red light readable at one time. Which sounds like proof that somebody didn't know what they were doing more than once.
Why there is chest-beating and vigorous defense of an antiquated and literally pretty-stupid system of measurement is beyond me. It's like demanding to have a carburetor because modern fuel injection wasn't invented here.
As a homeowner for over 25 years and a fairly-active DIY'er for most of that, my SAE tools are very rarely used, and I'm definitely not adding any. I keep the "legacy" tools because when I need them I need them, but I have no emotional connection to the system.
As a homeowner for over 25 years and a fairly-active DIY'er for most of that, my SAE tools are very rarely used, and I'm definitely not adding any. I keep the "legacy" tools because when I need them I need them, but I have no emotional connection to the system.
Bubba Fett
Well-known member
I use both. I keep adjustable wrenches in both S.A.E and Metric, as well as left handed and right handed ones.
You never know when you'll need it.
You never know when you'll need it.
I have both inchric and metric. What I worked on included both sides so I had both sides. I worked in plastic injection moulding plants where we had both inch and metric machines and equipment.
Lots of hex or Allen drive keys and sockets, Metric pliers, screwdrivers, calipers, and the like. Yeah, yeah.
I probably have slightly more inch base stuff than metric but they would be close and even now retired/retarded I still need both, just not as much of the big stuff.
As you continue working you may still run into the other side.
If you are doing much electrical work you will likely run into Pozidrive screwdrivers and bits. They look like a Phillips but they are not. There are subtle differences between the two that will quickly damage the head if you use the wrong one either way. And yes, I learned the hard way.
Lots of hex or Allen drive keys and sockets, Metric pliers, screwdrivers, calipers, and the like. Yeah, yeah.
I probably have slightly more inch base stuff than metric but they would be close and even now retired/retarded I still need both, just not as much of the big stuff.
As you continue working you may still run into the other side.
If you are doing much electrical work you will likely run into Pozidrive screwdrivers and bits. They look like a Phillips but they are not. There are subtle differences between the two that will quickly damage the head if you use the wrong one either way. And yes, I learned the hard way.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Well said...
Just took an old Dewalt Planer apart for repair... everything was SAE...
In My Mind (a lonely place)
Cars... yea metric... if you can't see beyond working on a car... there is your solution.
Everything else... it's a mix of both SAE and Metric.
Most important: If you have tools to work on TOOLS... you need SAE.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
I got a hardware assortment with drawer organizer from the old Warshawsky back room. Really cheap! Like $5 or something. All the 1/4 x 20 nuts and bolts have 10mm heads. 5/16 and the machine screw nuts are US standard sizes.
Weird.
MarvinBerry
Well-known member
It's the little differences...
You know what they call a quarter pounder in Europe? Royale with cheese. They don't have the metric system.
Guess probably not too many here work on USA Gibson guitars either... built in Nashville.
Need a 10mm for tuning pegs and 5/16 for truss rod.
Sweetcorn
Well-known member
Same can be said for the people who get all emotional about the metric system.
It's simple to figure out what size wrench/socket/whatever is needed.
Besides, this is Garage Journal. Who would want to have FEWER tools? That's crazy talk. I'm happy to buy and use both systems.
I'm not emotional about it, but I have little patience nostalgia, not-invented-here, always-been-that-way, Bacon and Eagles, etc. as reasons to continue using SAE. Yeah, I get there are legacy reasons for it to still exist, but there's nothing compelling about continuing to use SAE going forward.
I've spent a long time in a career where I'm often stating both. Several years ago one of my kids heard me on a call quoting lb/kg, mm/in and asked me why I did that. I tried to explain that we used our own system and the rest of the world used metric. When he asked me why we did that, I didn't have an answer other than "We've always used our own system." The next question was "So Canada uses what we use, right?" and the scowl that followed my answer made me laugh.
Metric is consistent, explainable and extremely precise. It's universally the standard used in science (because it is consistent, explainable and extremely precise) and of course most of the rest of the world is much farther down the road of adoption than we are (though there are plenty of examples where we've converted and most people don't think about it at all - booze and wine is a good example).
But when my (then) 11yo kid essentially asked me to defend why we're SAE, I couldn't think of an answer other than "because"
Besides, this is Garage Journal. Who would want to have FEWER tools? That's crazy talk. I'm happy to buy and use both systems.
I'm all for new tools, but I'd happily trash everything SAE if I didn't need it ever again and it made space for other, different tools I'd actually use.
I mean seriously, as a fairly-heavy DIY guy I can't think of anything I use often that is natively SAE other than my tape measure. I'm skill-limited, and trying to measure to/account for 32nds of an inch is...frustrating.
MushCreek
Well-known member
About 35 years ago, we got 40 hours of training in metric metrology at work. The large company I worked for (40,000 employees) was committed to being fully metric in a year. After the training, I could see how much more sense metric measurement is, and much easier to work with once you get used to it. Needless to say, our American-based company crashed and burned, and abandoned the metric effort, even though most of their product line (electrical connectors) was already metric.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Agree... same reason WE ALL will be glad in 5 years... there will be ZERO new antiquated combustion engines... In favor of Electric Vehicles... we will all have to get better at our wiring skills.
It will make the Daytona 500 so much more quiet... etc... etc...
Be careful what you call antiquated... pretty soon... many will be saying that about your lifes work and you for that matter.
bob15
Well-known member
How is .0001" not consistent, explainable or extremely precise? What you are saying makes zero sense. There is zero difference between .0001" and .00254mm, they are both precise numbers.
At my former job I used/ran lap-fitted components that had a clearance of .000125"-.000175". How is that not precise? And the fit between ever head & rotor had to be consistent or it would fail and be a $1,000 door stop.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
40 hours?! I can't imagine what filled all that time.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Memorization game of knowing all the prefixes and how to convert from one to another...
When was the last time you heard DekaMeter? But they still want you to know it.
I laugh every time a nurse asks what meds I take... I give them the dosages in a different prefix unit of measure... totally blowing their mind.
It's funny ... the doctors get it when I say I take 1 Gram BID... instead of saying 1000mg twice a day.
MushCreek
Well-known member
Especially considering all we were interested in was machine shop stuff. We each got a thick textbook, lots of history, blah, blah, blah. They went out and bought metric micrometers and gauge block sets, too. The good stuff; spent a fortune, then abandoned the idea. All the guys in the shop picked it right up.
For me, some things make better sense in metric and some in US customary (USC) measurements.
For fasteners, I'd rather work in metric, but typically you don't get the choice. It's not like you can retrofit a snowthrower or lawnmower to metric fasteners. I'm better at visually identifying metric bolt head sizes than I am at SAE, and I prefer them for their logical scaling.
For cooking, I translate every recipe from USC volume measurements (cups, tablespoons, etc.) to metric weights. 500g of flour is consistent every time and doesn't vary according to how densely it's packed. Recipes can be easily scaled. Since a recipe is basically a chemical formula, it's easy to see how that relates to science and research.
For woodworking and carpentry, I use USC measurements because a) the stock sold here in the US is measured in those increments, and b) the finished product is going in a house that was built to USC measurements. For example, if I'm hanging a door or installing a window, it's manufactured in USC dimensions; the rough opening is specified in inches; the framing lumber is 1.5" x 3.5"; and the trim is dimensioned in USC as well. Using metric measurements for that project would be an exercise in masochism. This pushes all my woodworking to USC measurements because I don't want to be using two systems in the shop.
For general real-world measurements like the height of a person, the size of a room, the temperature of the air, and the capacity of a gas tank, I'm comfortable with either, but I can see why the USC system persists. The USC increments tend to be more human-scaled. A meter is pretty close to a yard; a centimeter is a bit shy of half an inch. Since I've never once encountered anyone expressing size in decimeters, this means that when you talk about the size of a room in metric measurements, you have to talk about it in what amounts to yards or half-inches, or go to decimal fractions, whereas in US measurements you might say "It's about 11 by 14 feet" and not be too far off. Ditto the height of a person; "two meters tall," rounded to the nearest whole meter, describes almost every adult human on the planet. Fahrenheit is frustrating because of its strange relationship to freezing and boiling, so Celsius has the edge there, but the Fahrenheit degrees are smaller; you can get more precision without going to fractions.
USC tends to split increments in halves, quarters, and sometimes thirds, which is more along the lines of how people think about portioning and dividing. Nobody says, "Hey, can I have five tenths of your candy bar?" People think of divisions in those terms. Tenths makes all kinds of sense for math and engineering, and I really appreciate the metric system when precise scaling is needed; but in general knocking around the world, I can understand the persistence of a system that corresponds more to the human body and habits of thought.
My two centidollars.
Oh, and as to the OP's question: I never need SAE for automotive. For other machinery, it's about 50/50.
For fasteners, I'd rather work in metric, but typically you don't get the choice. It's not like you can retrofit a snowthrower or lawnmower to metric fasteners. I'm better at visually identifying metric bolt head sizes than I am at SAE, and I prefer them for their logical scaling.
For cooking, I translate every recipe from USC volume measurements (cups, tablespoons, etc.) to metric weights. 500g of flour is consistent every time and doesn't vary according to how densely it's packed. Recipes can be easily scaled. Since a recipe is basically a chemical formula, it's easy to see how that relates to science and research.
For woodworking and carpentry, I use USC measurements because a) the stock sold here in the US is measured in those increments, and b) the finished product is going in a house that was built to USC measurements. For example, if I'm hanging a door or installing a window, it's manufactured in USC dimensions; the rough opening is specified in inches; the framing lumber is 1.5" x 3.5"; and the trim is dimensioned in USC as well. Using metric measurements for that project would be an exercise in masochism. This pushes all my woodworking to USC measurements because I don't want to be using two systems in the shop.
For general real-world measurements like the height of a person, the size of a room, the temperature of the air, and the capacity of a gas tank, I'm comfortable with either, but I can see why the USC system persists. The USC increments tend to be more human-scaled. A meter is pretty close to a yard; a centimeter is a bit shy of half an inch. Since I've never once encountered anyone expressing size in decimeters, this means that when you talk about the size of a room in metric measurements, you have to talk about it in what amounts to yards or half-inches, or go to decimal fractions, whereas in US measurements you might say "It's about 11 by 14 feet" and not be too far off. Ditto the height of a person; "two meters tall," rounded to the nearest whole meter, describes almost every adult human on the planet. Fahrenheit is frustrating because of its strange relationship to freezing and boiling, so Celsius has the edge there, but the Fahrenheit degrees are smaller; you can get more precision without going to fractions.
USC tends to split increments in halves, quarters, and sometimes thirds, which is more along the lines of how people think about portioning and dividing. Nobody says, "Hey, can I have five tenths of your candy bar?" People think of divisions in those terms. Tenths makes all kinds of sense for math and engineering, and I really appreciate the metric system when precise scaling is needed; but in general knocking around the world, I can understand the persistence of a system that corresponds more to the human body and habits of thought.
My two centidollars.
Oh, and as to the OP's question: I never need SAE for automotive. For other machinery, it's about 50/50.
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PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
The Euro is the ******* stepchild of the metric system.
Resume discussion...
Resume discussion...
I assume you mean because it's international, not because it's decimal. Right?
RoundedNut
Well-known member
US money is made to metric dimensions. Interesting info here: https://www.nist.gov/blogs/taking-measure/busting-myths-about-metric-system
Ign
Well-known member
A true mechanic understands and can work with both metric and imperial systems, often on the same project.
Dealership parts-changers can only turn metric wrenches; fractions are too hard to comprehend.
Even more so for machinists. The first thing I had to do in school was memorize all the 1/16ths in thousandths.
That shifted my thinking: everything is just a value.
In my head I often just think of 10mm as .393 or 6mm as .236". I bet "metric machinists" often think of 1/4" in hundredths of a mm.
It doesn't matter what you call it, THIS thick is THIS thick. Or a rose by any other name is still a rose.
There's no consistency across volume, distance, weight and even temperature. Measurements in thou is essentially a concession and conversion of a measurement system that is stupid and antiquated to something decimal-based.
It's fine if y'all are comfortable with antiquated. It's been necessary to make it work and it does. That doesn't make it better.
Farmall450
Well-known member
measuredtwice
Well-known member
You said "put people"
C'mon Commie
I could put you on the moon with one swift kick in the rear!
Commie? Don't be a troll.