To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Why entry level socket sets still include SAE?

sk farmer

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
5,556
Location
nd
why do people ***** about how they don't like the sae system? tell everyone how stupid it is and that everyone should convert to metric because it doesn't make sense.

yet you don't hear that same person ***** about 60 seconds to a minute, 60 minutes to an hour, 24 hours to a day. 7 days in a week. varying days in a month, 12 months in a year and 365 days in a year.......except years with 366 days......etc.

aren't you being a hypocrite if you don't pound your fist on the table just as hard to change those units of measure?
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,747
Location
Upstate South Carolina
I'm with you, except 365 days in a year. Not much we can do about that. I've always wonder whether a circle could be decimalized, with there being 100 degrees instead of 360. Of course, all of the trig tables would have to be heavily reworked.
 

Mechanical Noise

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
2,635
Location
Southeast of O'Hare
I'm with you, except 365 days in a year. Not much we can do about that. I've always wonder whether a circle could be decimalized, with there being 100 degrees instead of 360. Of course, all of the trig tables would have to be heavily reworked.

There's a sorta decimalized unit for angles called the Gradian. A right angle is 100 gradians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradian
 

jd_1138

Well-known member
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
17,042
Location
NE Ohio
Well I've certainly learned a lot reading this thread. I guess the takeaway is that the only industry in the US that is primarily metric is (modern) automotive. Everything else is SAE.

For about $200 I put together a "side of the road" car/truck tool kit. 270 Piece Husky set, extension bar set, vise grip set, gloves, battery terminal cleaner, electrical tape, gloves, jumper cables, screwdriver set, needle nose pliers, cigarette lighter, zip ties. I may post a thread for this. I'm trying to build a kit anyone should have in their high mileage vehicle.

Don't forget the bailing wire/mechanic's wire. Yeah cars are mostly metric, but it is nice to have SAE in the kit also in case you're over at your parent's/kid's house and need to help them repair/assemble some household item that is SAE.

I am constantly astonished by the utter and complete lack of tools the average person owns. We were at my GF's son's house last week and she bought him a new BBQ grille. He didn't even have a Phillips screwdriver for me to assemble it. You could buy a set of 6 at HF for $3. We were in the car without the tool kit I carry in the other, so I had to use the screwdriver on my multitool so it added time and hassle to the job.

And of course, no one volunteered to help. I will put together a small toolbox of basics for him, and next time I am over there and need a tool he better have it handy or I will refuse to do the repair/job.
 

M635_Guy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
4,333
Location
NC
aren't you being a hypocrite if you don't pound your fist on the table just as hard to change those units of measure?

If the entire rest of the world were on a different time standard? Well...yeah. But they're not, so the answer to your question is "No"

(Though as someone else mentioned we aren't able to define a different number of days in the year. Some of my Japanese friends wonder why we're not on what we'd call "military time" though...).
 

Mechanical Noise

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
2,635
Location
Southeast of O'Hare
If the entire rest of the world were on a different time standard? Well...yeah. But they're not, so the answer to your question is "No"

(Though as someone else mentioned we aren't able to define a different number of days in the year. Some of my Japanese friends wonder why we're not on what we'd call "military time" though...).

At least the 12 hour clock makes sense in a sundial sort of way. But we can't stick to the same number of hours in a day. The Japanese got rid of Daylight Shifting Time ages ago.
 

PugetDude

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
22,295
Location
Superstition Mountains, AZ
I've recalibrated my speedometer to display my speed in cubits per fortnight (squared).

Once you get used to it it's pretty easy to maintain legal speed. :3gears:

Don't hate me for it.;)
 

sk farmer

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
5,556
Location
nd
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-time-division-days-hours-minutes/

TLDR: base 10 counting isn't the only system, and older civilizations used others. It also makes sense to use natural cycles for time.

With computers, the natural bases that are commonly used are 2, 8, 16 and 64.

All these are reasonable choices. SAE is totally bonkers ;)


um ok....... so 2, 8, 16 and 64 are reasonable but 1/2, 3/8, 9/16 and 1/64 is bonkers.

pretty simple fact that all units of measure are based on some random amount of something that was thought up 100's if not thousands of years ago.

how come you guys aren't bitching about bras and cup sizes how they make very little sense and different standards are used around the world. now that is something that more of us may find interesting.
 

whateg01

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
11,198
Location
doo dah, kansas, usa
...

how come you guys aren't bitching about bras and cup sizes how they make very little sense and different standards are used around the world. now that is something that more of us may find interesting.

I've always wondered why A, B, C, D, then DD, DDD, DDDD, etc. instead of A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H...

well, I had to google it. Guess what!? We f'd up there, too!

international-bra-cup-size-conversion-chart.jpg
 

justanengineer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
7,722
Location
Motor City
I've always wondered why A, B, C, D, then DD, DDD, DDDD, etc. instead of A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H...

I’m convinced the clothing industry complicates things just to make women try it all on in the hopes they’ll fall in love with products, tho no doubt some openly lie by making big girl clothes with small numbers intentionally too. Even in “normal” women’s sizes tho they’re screwed up. Depending on the brand my wife is somewhere between a size 8-12. Occasionally she buys men’s/boy’s clothes for workwear (coveralls, overalls, etc), and in men’s sizes she’s consistently the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

RoundedNut

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
239
Location
driveway
um ok....... so 2, 8, 16 and 64 are reasonable but 1/2, 3/8, 9/16 and 1/64 is bonkers...

Yes, counting in those bases uses that number of digits so for your examples, in their respective base representation, are single digits: .1 .3 .9 .B

So using fractional divisions in something other than your counting base is bonkers. If we count by 10's then things should be divided by 10's.

The double plus bonkers part of SAE fractions is how they change denominators as you go up in sizes, for example: 1/4, 5/16, 3/8

Btw, 10 is not a special number. It just happens to be the number of fingers and thumbs on most people's hands.
 

Junkdrawer Dog

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
1,460
Location
LV NV
About 35 years ago, we got 40 hours of training in metric metrology at work. The large company I worked for (40,000 employees) was committed to being fully metric in a year. After the training, I could see how much more sense metric measurement is, and much easier to work with once you get used to it. Needless to say, our American-based company crashed and burned, and abandoned the metric effort, even though most of their product line (electrical connectors) was already metric.

In the mid 1990s, the largest customer of the company I worked for decided to "go metric ". All of our drawings of products we produced for them had to be converted to metric. Engineers, techs, inspection and qc personnel all got training in the metric system and off we went. This summer I disassembled and repaired one of that company's appliances that was manufactured a full 12 years after their metric system epiphany. It was all still SAE fasteners. Go figure.
 

HPRifleman

Member Emeritus
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
767
Location
Wayne, IL
Such emotional responses over such a minor subject. It's just measurement units.

At work, when I design a new product, my default linear unit of measure is the millimeter and when I specify a fastener, it's metric. We also have a legacy product line that has been around since the 1970's. It's still a good money maker for us. Those fasteners are SAE. Depending on what I am discussing I go back and forth between the two. Not a big deal.

If you are used to working on newer passenger cars then you may think that metric fasteners are all that exist. But there's a whole world of legacy product that needs to be maintained so SAE wrenches are still required.
 

Ralf11

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
2,275
why do people ***** about how they don't like the sae system? tell everyone how stupid it is and that everyone should convert to metric because it doesn't make sense.

yet you don't hear that same person ***** about 60 seconds to a minute, 60 minutes to an hour, 24 hours to a day. 7 days in a week. varying days in a month, 12 months in a year and 365 days in a year.......except years with 366 days......etc.

aren't you being a hypocrite if you don't pound your fist on the table just as hard to change those units of measure?

grads vs. rads
 

Barnabas

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
361
Location
Raleigh, NC
The United States adopted the metric system on July 28, 1866. If we wait another 150 years, the hype will blow over, and we can go back to inches and feet.

I do laugh every time I watch Doc Hollywood when the mechanic says he always wanted an excuse to buy a set of metric wrenches. Since when do we need an excuse, or even a need, to buy more wrenches?
 

Farmall450

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
13,355
Location
Marengo, Illinois
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-time-division-days-hours-minutes/

TLDR: base 10 counting isn't the only system, and older civilizations used others. It also makes sense to use natural cycles for time.

With computers, the natural bases that are commonly used are 2, 8, 16 and 64.

All these are reasonable choices. SAE is totally bonkers ;)

16 isn't an SAE base? :drool:

I could put you on the moon with one swift kick in the rear! :lol_hitti

Commie? Don't be a troll.

Yeah I'm sure you could :)
 

guitarbutt

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 29, 2017
Messages
237
We might as well piss about horse power too. Secretariat had more strength and ability than Billy Bob's idiot half inbred horse that licks the electric fence
 

Ralf11

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
2,275
Hey Guys, how about a rousing thread on Whitworth sockets?
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

bmwrd0

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
5,433
Location
Beaver Fever Oregon
The Metric system is a top-down system vs. the SAE system which is a bottom-up system.

Metric was conceived during the French revolution to replace the Avoirdupois system, which was simply a continental version of what we have in the SAE/USS system, or Imperial system. It was designed by a committee, and even then it is not internally consistent. Take for example the meter, which is based on a measurement of one-quarter of the world. Why not base it on the full circumference? Well, it wouldn't come close to being a useful measurement that approximated the yard. Another example, the gram. Which is simply an object, kept under lock and key that they decided was the basis of the measure of weight. It isn't based on anything except some dude, who was not a king, saying so. No more, no less. Often one hears claims that it is internally consistent, but the meter-liter-gram test shows how false that is; a cubic meter of water is much greater in volume than a liter and weighs much more than a gram at the same time. Now, there is nothing wrong with any of these points, but they simply show that any claims of internal consistency are false and that it is as consistent as Imperial measures.

As far as accuracy goes, either measurement system is only as accurate as the metrology used to measure it. In other words, as long as the consistency of the measurement remains standard, it doesn't matter what system you measure with. Feet, meters, tatami, arshin, lini, or chains, all are as accurate as of the measurer. And all of those systems are still to be found on the earth, modernity notwithstanding.

Further, the reason the United States is slower in changing to the metric system is pretty simple. Every. Single. Item. made before 1975 is in SAE. Everything. And to give you an example, that is every screw thread, every thread cutter, every machine tool, window frame, doorknob, and every other thing you can think of. And the cost of changing those items, all at the same time? There is no way to put a cost on this. And if you ask "all those other countries did it, why no us?" it is because every other industrial nation had adopted the metric system before the machine age, or they weren't an industrial country. Japan changed to metric in the mid sixties, Russia didn't become an industrial country until the Russian revolution, when it adopted the metric system. England, possibly the only exception, changed to SAE from Whitworth around 1960 at incredible expense and was only able to from the damage sustained in WWII. When they tried to change again to the metric system around the same time as the US in the late seventies, it killed much of the industrial might of that country. All the countries in South America? Canada? They were never industrialized.

And none of that is to say that Imperial measurements are better. They just are. It might not be perfectly accurate to pace along a piece of wood and say it's 10', but it will get you close enough. Or to place your thumb on an object and see if it is larger or smaller, giving you an idea of its size. And before the machine age, when every single thing was hand-made, there was little need for greater accuracy. Now? Well, SAE did take people to the moon, was used in machining airplanes, jet engines, ocean carriers, sewing machines, and every other thing you can think of.
 

GeoBruin

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
3,733
While your descriptions of the origins of the meter and the gram may be based in truth, their definitions have been updated such that they can be derived. For example the meter is exactly equal to the length the path of light travels in 1/299 792 458 of a second, and the gram is now defined in terms of the Planck constant.
 

Citation

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
3,211
Location
Indy
Well I've certainly learned a lot reading this thread. I guess the takeaway is that the only industry in the US that is primarily metric is (modern) automotive. Everything else is SAE.

Lots of US industries are primarily metric. Medical, electronics, and often areas where you don't need to use a lot of off the shelf hardware. I think SAE is more common when you want off the shelf gears, bearings etc.
 

Farmall450

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
13,355
Location
Marengo, Illinois
Lots of US industries are primarily metric. Medical, electronics, and often areas where you don't need to use a lot of off the shelf hardware. I think SAE is more common when you want off the shelf gears, bearings etc.

Look at the issues that causes -- dealers are ordering specific fasteners b/c it's impossible to find random large metric locally in many cases. Strip/break/round a bolt that isn't in a through hole? Uh oh!

For service we'd really be better off with all SAE quite honestly....even 45 years after "switching"
 

Citation

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
3,211
Location
Indy
Look at the issues that causes -- dealers are ordering specific fasteners b/c it's impossible to find random large metric locally in many cases. Strip/break/round a bolt that isn't in a through hole? Uh oh!

For service we'd really be better off with all SAE quite honestly....even 45 years after "switching"

Many of the metric devices are not ones you just open up and service. Some are single use, some have no fasteners, some are too specialized.
 

sk farmer

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
5,556
Location
nd
While your descriptions of the origins of the meter and the gram may be based in truth, their definitions have been updated such that they can be derived. For example the meter is exactly equal to the length the path of light travels in 1/299 792 458 of a second, and the gram is now defined in terms of the Planck constant.

yea, why let truth get in the way of anything............

if it had been such a perfect system why would it need to have been "updated" to be derived from some other sorts of measurement.

i use both systems most every day and have no issues but i still prefer good old sae.
 

ER70S-2

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
798
Every single one of us has things built with with SAE and metric nuts and bolts in our houses or garages. Is this thread for real?
 

GeoBruin

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
3,733
yea, why let truth get in the way of anything............



if it had been such a perfect system why would it need to have been "updated" to be derived from some other sorts of measurement.



i use both systems most every day and have no issues but i still prefer good old sae.
I made no qualitative statements about the virtues of the system at all. And I certainly didn't say it was perfect, before being updated or after. I just pointed out that it has been updated since it's origins as described by the other poster.

For someone who claims to value the truth, it seems like you would be more excited about a way to independently derive units of measurement that hold true anywhere in the known universe.

I primarily use SAE since I live in the US. I was exposed to the metric system in school but day to day, it's SAE. I can use it because I'm used to it, not because it's intuitive.

I always like to think of it this way. If aliens landed tomorrow and I had to describe the natural world we live in, what tools would I use? I would use math. I would use physics. And I would present everything using the metric system.
 

sk farmer

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
5,556
Location
nd
I made no qualitative statements about the virtues of the system at all. And I certainly didn't say it was perfect, before being updated or after. I just pointed out that it has been updated since it's origins as described by the other poster.

For someone who claims to value the truth, it seems like you would be more excited about a way to independently derive units of measurement that hold true anywhere in the known universe.

I primarily use SAE since I live in the US. I was exposed to the metric system in school but day to day, it's SAE. I can use it because I'm used to it, not because it's intuitive.

I always like to think of it this way. If aliens landed tomorrow and I had to describe the natural world we live in, what tools would I use? I would use math. I would use physics. And I would present everything using the metric system.


i should have been more clear. i didn't specificly have you in mind what i meant is that a lot of people don't care about the facts or history and just want to believe what they want to believe and care little about anything else.

i think a lot of people equate metric as being modern and better and sae as being old fashioned and inferior. therefor they have no use for it even though lots of things around them are based in sae.
 

M6erfan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
10,170
Location
'Merica!
I use both SAE and metric. I like both just fine. I MUCH prefer doing layouts and such in metric though.

Metric hardware is not hard to find. I order metric bearings all the time. Metric is not a problem. Either is SAE.

The most notable thing about this topic is that it's gone 8 pages so far. :eek7:
 

Loscaldazar

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
2,385
Fun fact, one pound (weight) is legally defined as 0.45359237 kilograms. An inch is legally 2.54 cm.

Yes, even the SAE system has converted to metric for its legal definitions.
 

visionguru

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
1,233
Location
Chicago
I found that most (if not all) fasteners at home are SAE, for example, appliances, HVAC.... while metric is the standard on all cars.
 

Lucid Moments

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
1,775
Location
Gainesville, Ga
I almost exclusively work on fairly modern cars so most of what I use is metric. And I find metric more intuitive to use than SAE. I am not saying either is better or worse, just that metric is better for me.

It isn't that I have real problems using SAE tools or fasteners, but it isn't as intuitive for me. I frequently find myself having to mentally convert measurements to the lowest common denominator in order to figure out what size I need if I guess wrong to start with. I am sure that if I used SAE tools more often it would come more naturally to me, but that just isn't what I mostly work with.
 

Meursault74

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
21,894
Location
Southern California
While your descriptions of the origins of the meter and the gram may be based in truth, their definitions have been updated such that they can be derived. For example the meter is exactly equal to the length the path of light travels in 1/299 792 458 of a second, and the gram is now defined in terms of the Planck constant.


Thanks for making me aware of the of the update of the definition of the mass units. Also good to know that the "old" definition based on water (which is what I had known and is easy to remember) is only 30 ppm "off".

I use the SI and SAE both for measurement. For tools I also use both.
For calculations, the SI wins for me. When I need to buy nuts, bolts, and fasteners in general to build something or fix something around the house, SAE wins as they are generally more plentiful, cheaper, and easier for me to find at the hardware store.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom