Why many used sockets are 12 point?

[casestudies]

I've been looking at getting 1/2" drive 6 point chrome sockets, used, and it seems like most of the older vintage USA brands like SK and Craftsman available on line are 12 point. Even a lot of new sets from SK and other USA brands seem to have 12 point more available than six point. Just wondering why a lot of the vintage stuff seems to be 12 point on 1/2" drive sockets over 6 point.

 

[md21722]

Yes, that's been my experience. Years ago 12 point was commonly available and it was a challenge to find 6 point. Tool trucks had them. Today its practically the opposite.

 

[Art From De Leon]

Maybe because a 12pt socket was easier to line up with the hex head, when used with a very coarse toothed ratchet.

 

[Wes J]

Nothing wrong with 12 point.

In the days of breaker bars they were really handy. 60 degrees is pretty course.

 

[mrjaw14]

When 6 points wear, they turn into 12 points. It's time to retire them when they turn into 24 points.

 

[T45]

I'm gonna say it had to do wit 24t or whatever ratchets.

Some people today will still suggest you get 1/2 drive chromes in 12pt because so much 6pt is out there, not to mention impacts generally, and when used with a breaker bar the 12pt is useful still in the tight fit situations where chrom is preferred.

This view tends to assume you have modern or very high quality sockets tho. Not sure you want to get/rely on vintage, high wear sockets in 12 point.

 

[Corndoggeh]

I like 12 pt better anyways so I actually like that the old sockets are more 12 pt. More versatility for me and never outright stripped a head because it was 12 pt, more like the bolt head or nut was in bad shape to begin with.

 

[MShaw]

Also, "back in the day" some auto manufacturers used bolts with 12 point heads. If you were all 6 point you were SOL.

 

[Al Bundy]

Why many used sockets are 12 point?

Because when they were new they were 12 point.

 

[gdocktor3]

Check Cripedistributing for new old stock sockets. They have USA made Armstrong, KD, Allen, Kobalt for a few bucks a piece. Or, buy a new set of Gearwrench. They're extremely affordable and just as good as truck brands.

Example http://www.cripedistributing.com/kd-tools-533226-socket-13-16-deep-1-2-drive-usa.html

 

[gungatim]

Also, "back in the day" some auto manufacturers used bolts with 12 point heads. If you were all 6 point you were SOL.

that and even older bolts were 4 pt. 12 pt. sockets can be used on 4, 6,and 12 pt. fasteners. 6pt. can only be used on hex head.

 

[GTO]

I have a full set of 3/8" 12pt sockets.I have ARP SS 12pt bolts on the engine in my collector car.They come in handy.

 

[KEH]

Sometimes you need 12 points to get at a fastner that is in an awkward location. Had that experience yesterday on disc mower(it cuts hay, for those who don't know.) I had a 6 point box end wrench and had to move the wrench around to get it in a position to work. To be fair, I could have gone and gotten a long ratchet with a 6 point and accomplished the same thing, but that would have taken time.

KEH

 

[B_Bimmer]

The reason is simple. They were originally sold before the internet and garage journal, so nobody yet knew that they would round off bolt heads just by being in the area.

 

[creativecars]

Nothing wrong with 12 point.

In the days of breaker bars they were really handy. 60 degrees is pretty course.

Agreed, 12 points are fine 90% of the time, but you must be smart enough to use them correctly...

 

[dnschmidt]

Twelve points are in fact coming back. A lot of European cars are using 12pt bolts and this is becoming more common in general. It has always amused me that 12 point wrenches are something we universally all use but 12 pt sockets are the instruments of the devil. This whole argument of rounding bolts off with 12 point only applies to bolts with 12mm heads or less. After that the 12 point with flank drive (which everybody uses now) are every bit as good as the six point. I agree with the comment about lower tooth count ratchets being one of the reasons 12pt was so dominant in the old days.

 

[Gmonkee]

True, the vocal minority have vilified them.

Demand for six point off corner drive killed them somewhat.
But as old guys retire there will be a shitload of them of good brands flooding the used market. They work just fine and will for decades to come. I use some too, along with my fastener destroying DOE wrenches and with a little care nothing horrible happens somehow

 

[faiee]

Most of the fasteners I will be working with in my upcoming career are 12 point so I am quite glad there are plenty of them for sale used The real problem is trying to get AF 12 point in the uk. Not difficult, but expensive.

 

[byoungblood]

Also, "back in the day" some auto manufacturers used bolts with 12 point heads. If you were all 6 point you were SOL.

Actually it is the other way around. More often head bolts and other internal engine bolts are going 12 point, or triple star, whereas they used to be 6.

Above certain sizes, 12 point and 6 point sockets/wrenches have about the same contact point on the fastener. 12 point sockets/wrenches always (by my observation) always seemed to contact the fastener off corner anyway, just by the nature of their design. Only time I've ever seemed to have a problem with 12 point sockets is with smaller fasteners, when the flats on a 12 point socket get really tiny. I'd say anything over 3/8"/8mm I've never had an issue.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Personally, I hate 12 point sockets. I even went and bought an extra set of SAE combination with 6 point box ends.

It probably does not matter on larger bolts (>3/4) but I stripped enough heads on smaller one in my "youth" that I got rid of all of my 12 point sockets. Someday, I may have to buy ONE for that odd bolt !

 

[kctyphoon]

Twelve points are in fact coming back. A lot of European cars are using 12pt bolts and this is becoming more common in general. It has always amused me that 12 point wrenches are something we universally all use but 12 pt sockets are the instruments of the devil. This whole argument of rounding bolts off with 12 point only applies to bolts with 12mm heads or less. After that the 12 point with flank drive (which everybody uses now) are every bit as good as the six point. I agree with the comment about lower tooth count ratchets being one of the reasons 12pt was so dominant in the old days.

That's mainly due to access restrictions though.. most people will only grab a wrench over a ratchet if they need to, and having only half the the amount of working positions with a 6 point wrench can be a real headache.

 

[wrenchr]

I prefer my swivel sockets to be 12 point.

 

[T45]

That's mainly due to access restrictions though.. most people will only grab a wrench over a ratchet if they need to, and having only half the the amount of working positions with a 6 point wrench can be a real headache.

Agree with your logic, but I think the point he is making is that with say a stuck bolt and a ratchet wrench everyone will say grab a 12pt combo to break that bolt. And nobody will be worried a 10mm or 12mm point FD box end is going to strip a bolt because of the 12 point design.

I would say that the main reason that this is true however is not about just the 12 point box end. The modern flank drive is very good about staying off corners when properly set up. The benefit of a combo wrench is that it is one piece and doesnt have the yaw, so you much more likely to have the geometry correct.

With a ratchet you risk having a sloppy socket+sloppy square drive+sloppy square broach+ sloppy 12pt broach. You only need a good tolerance box end for the wrenches and you are in the clear (assuming it fits onto the work.)

 

[kctyphoon]

Agree with your logic, but I think the point he is making is that with say a stuck bolt and a ratchet wrench everyone will say grab a 12pt combo to break that bolt. And nobody will be worried a 10mm or 12mm point FD box end is going to strip a bolt because of the 12 point design.

I would say that the main reason that this is true however is not about just the 12 point box end. The modern flank drive is very good about staying off corners when properly set up.

The benefit of a combo wrench is that it is one piece and doesnt have the yaw, so you much more likely to have the geometry correct. With a ratchet you risk having a sloppy socket+sloppy square drive+sloppy square broach+ sloppy 12pt broach. You only need a good tolerance box end for the wrenches and you are in the clear (assuming it fits onto the work.)

I agree with his point, and what u said.. I was just stating that sometimes you don't have much of a choice and just have to use what works..

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

 

[pop pop]

Cars and trucks used to be larger and could use larger fastners. Today they have shrunk till a large bolt cannot be used or is not necessary, so the sockets/wrenches follow. I still use my old wrenches and only work on old vehicles!

 

[Kenskip1]

Back in the day we had 6 volts systems.Nowadays we have 12 volt systems. I have a 6 pack but a 12 pack is better. LOL This thread is comical.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

I think the 12 point was just easier to broach.

 

[ssdave]

In pre-internet days, they worked, and people used them instead of talking about them.

Today, the very specific failures of a few fasteners gets talked up on the internet, and those that don't have that specific experience, but read about it, adopt it as part of their belief system. So, the general belief becomes that you MUST use 6 point sockets to avoid stripped fastener heads.

Personally, i much prefer 12 point sockets, among other things they're slightly thinner, usually. So, I use them with success, although I also have 6 point ones that I use in particular circumstances; particularly with undersize or rusted fasteners.

 

[Al Borland]

Never had a problem with head stripping over 1/2" or so.
12 point sockets DO break easier when using "enhanced" breaker bar handle lengths.

 

[hangfirew8]

6 Points are not all about modern Internet Belief Systems. They are about those living and working in the Rust Belt, where larger quantities of more aggressive de-icing agents are used now, than in times past.

12 Points are easier to get mounted, fit and work in tighter spaces.

There are no religious wars in my toolbox. I own both 12 and 6 point sockets and wrenches. They co-exist nicely. They don't sing Kumbaya to me, they just help me get the job done.

But getting back to the original question, when I started tool buying in earnest in the 80's, 6 point tools were around in chrome, but were fairly rare compared to 12's.

 

[Dave455]

If you use decent quality nuts and bolts then a 12 point works fine. In fact, unless you are using it with a ratchet, it is to be preferred!

Don't think my Father or Grandfather ever owned a 6 point socket! The only ones that were around were crude cheap things to be avoided!

But then came cost cutting and outsourcing, and instead of decent quality fasteners a lot of manufacturers started using the cheapest imported ones, generally squeezed out of butter soft metal that I'll refrain from calling steel. I think the Ford Motor Co. were the first to go down that path here in the U.K. I remember trying to switch a rad on a newish Mondeo with my 12 point sockets and rounding all the shite bolts!

If you work in an industry where decent fasteners are used (eg aerospace), 12 point are still the norm. Nothing to do with 12 point fasteners (though they can be used for that) but everything to do with quality!

 

[engineer2]

12 points would be cheaper to make since they use less steel.

 

[Wakefield]

Back in the day we had 6 volts systems.Nowadays we have 12 volt systems. I have a 6 pack but a 12 pack is better. LOL This thread is comical.

And then some of us have a 5 point socket!

 

[casestudies]

If you use decent quality nuts and bolts then a 12 point works fine. In fact, unless you are using it with a ratchet, it is to be preferred!

Don't think my Father or Grandfather ever owned a 6 point socket! The only ones that were around were crude cheap things to be avoided!

But then came cost cutting and outsourcing, and instead of decent quality fasteners a lot of manufacturers started using the cheapest imported ones, generally squeezed out of butter soft metal that I'll refrain from calling steel. I think the Ford Motor Co. were the first to go down that path here in the U.K. I remember trying to switch a rad on a newish Mondeo with my 12 point sockets and rounding all the shite bolts!

If you work in an industry where decent fasteners are used (eg aerospace), 12 point are still the norm. Nothing to do with 12 point fasteners (though they can be used for that) but everything to do with quality!

Thanks for all the responses on this. I do work with 12 point aerospace fasteners at work, and use pretty much all 12 point sockets and wrenches as everything is generally clean and no rust. However I'm lookin at sockets for home use on vehicles, and the difference I see is i'm in the rust belt so I was looking for 6 point. Perhaps I'll give a set of 12 point a chance.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[mikegt4]

Almost all of my std. length sockets are 12 pt. Most of them are more than 40 years old and still going. Back in the day 12 pt was the norm as was a 24-36 toothed ratchet. Today it's the other way around, 6 pt. sockets and 80 toothed ratchets. My son always complains about my sockets and ratchets.

Kind of like racing cars. I think it was Fangio that was quoted when asked about modern racing cars vs. cars of his era. "In my day the drivers were fat and the tires skinny"