Why not just use incandescent lighting?

[767Jockey]

There is so much written about using fluorescent lighting in the garage, I guess there is something I'm missing. I completely understand that fluorescent's save energy, but if you look at the cost of purchase of the bulbs and fixtures, it would take many years for the average garage user to recoup the investment. I have a 850 sq. ft. garage and workshop. It's all going to be drywalled with fresh semi gloss white on the walls and ceilings, with light beige epoxy flooring going in. The cheapest 4' T8 fixtures I can find are about $20 each, with another $5 for a pair of bulbs. At $25 a fixture, I figure I will need about 25 fixtures, for a total cost of around $625. Instead I can buy simple keystone fixtures for incandescents bulbs for about $1.50 each, and another $1 each for bulbs. 25 of these fixtures will cost around $63, a savings of around $562. That'll pay for more than half of the cost of the epoxy floor.

Now, for guys who are doing fine detail paint work in the garage, or who have the lights on for 15 hours a day, sure, the fluorescents and the technically perfect lighting distribution that they seemingly produce may make sense. However, for the average guy like me, working on odd house jobs or building and maintaining cars in the garage, I can't imagine incandescents in adequate numbers hindering my work. Additionally, if electric costs are a concern, the keystone fixtures can also be used with screw in fluorescent bulbs to save a watt. They make some high lumen output screw in fluorescents that use considerably less electric than a equivalent incandescent.

While the technical quality of the light either screw in alternative produces is likely not perfect, I'm sure that turning on 25 incandescent bulbs or screw in fluorescents will be akin to standing on the beach at noon on a clear July day.

Sometimes I think we just over think things, at some point, it's either bright enough to see what you're doing clearly or it's not.

Thoughts?

 

[jmlcolorado]

My old 2 car garage had 9 keyless fixtures in it, 3 rows of 3. While it was great to party in (I was younger at the time) it cast a lot of shadows. Now I have 3, tandem 8' fixtures across the back half of the garage (garage door rides too close to the ceiling to add the additional 3 I really want) and it's much better!
I still get shadowing off the 3, but it's MUCH less.
I find these days I'm doing much more detailed work and welding and it's nice not to have random shadows chasing me around the whole time.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[schor]

Eventually you won't be able to get incandescent bulbs. Then your into cfl's which are more expensive than tubes.

Tubes save energy over incandescent.

 

[Super Sport]

Lighting is key in a working shop, and incandescents have far too many drawbacks.

 

[Macrosloth]

Just playing the devils advocate. LEDs. I've got 2 xmls at ten watts and 900 lumens each. They are great for above the bench. Going to add more soon. They last forever, and in a shop like mine were space is at a premium take up almost zero space.

 

[Norcal]

Just playing the devils advocate. LEDs. I've got 2 xmls at ten watts and 900 lumens each. They are great for above the bench. Going to add more soon. They last forever, and in a shop like mine were space is at a premium take up almost zero space.

LED lamp life remains to be proven.

 

[rsanter]

Fluorescents have better distributed light, the point light sources like cfl or incandescent will be more prone to shadows and uneven lighting.

I like the florescent tubes

Bob

 

[Sneeze357]

I don't care how many incandescent bulbs you have, you will NEVER get the same quality of light that you can from modern fluorescents, metal halides, or LEDs. It's all about the color temperature. The color temperature from incandescent bulbs is yellow, there is nothing that can be done about that.

I've thought about this before, my barn is more than 100 years old. What kind of lights did they originally have? Windows. I feel sorry for them. Even if you were a millionaire in 1910 you couldn't have good light at night. Nobody invented it yet.

Then there is the fact that incandescent bulbs only last a few hundred hours. Replacing them would be a constant chore. And I'm not going to waste my time doing the math, but a whole shop full of lights, yes, anything but incandescent will pay for themselves.

Take notice next time you go into a commercial establishment. ANY commercial establishment. You will notice that you cannot find one single incandescent bulb being used anywhere. There is a reason for this.

Also, you can EASILY find CFL bulbs for a dollar or two. They may even be cheaper than incandescents in the year 2014.

 

[sloppy]

LED lamp life remains to be proven.

Seemed to have worked pretty well for the last 20ish years on almost all commercial trucks and trailers.. If they can survive the rigors of driving over millions of miles of road and worse, I am pretty sure they will be ok hanging in the average garage/house..

 

[softailgarage]

LED lamp life remains to be proven.

So far, I would say the LED's are winning. I've been running LED's various way's for 6 or 7 years now and not one failure...changed a lot of incandescent in that time.

 

[iagsxr]

This is the 18' x 24' garage at my house. It has four 150w clear incandescent bulbs;



Used them because at the time that's what I could afford and they were easier to make fit around the door tracks.

There has never been a time that I wished I had more light in my garage.

They spin the meter. If I have them on a lot I can definitely see it in my utility bill.

 

[CheckeredFlag]

This is the 18' x 24' garage at my house. It has four 150w clear incandescent bulbs; ....

They spin the meter. If I have them on a lot I can definitely see it in my utility bill.[/QUOTE]

Bingo

I'm sure using LED or fluorescent light bulbs are cheaper

 

[dtcooper]

LED lamp life remains to be proven.

Actually, current technology LEDs have been tested out to the 100,000 hour mark. Hence the LM70, LM80, LM90 ratings we have available at this very moment.
It denotes the Lumen Maintenance (existing level of lumen output) at that point in life.

The total life (to end) has not been significantly established... because, well... as he said above: "they last forever"..

With 8750 hours per year, if left running 24 hours per day, that's 11.5 years..
With running 8-10 hours per day, that's at least 27 years worth, with the established lumen output still existing at that point..
So, while I hope to be living beyond 30 years from now, I would definitely classify a LED living that long, to have lived "forever".. even if only figuratively.

 

[paranoid56]

This is the 18' x 24' garage at my house. It has four 150w clear incandescent bulbs;



Used them because at the time that's what I could afford and they were easier to make fit around the door tracks.

There has never been a time that I wished I had more light in my garage.

They spin the meter. If I have them on a lot I can definitely see it in my utility bill.

so why not spend less than 20 bucks for some cfls and get the same amount of light and much cheaper bill?

 

[ajchien]

This is the 18' x 24' garage at my house. It has four 150w clear incandescent bulbs; ....

They spin the meter. If I have them on a lot I can definitely see it in my utility bill.[/QUOTE]

Bingo

I'm sure using LED or fluorescent light bulbs are cheaper

Over the last year I converted from all incadescent to CFL. My electricity bills have gone up [I live in CA where expenses go up and income goes down yeraly]. It's probably because my rates are going up, but I cant be sure of that. Usage seems less because Im more concious of turning off light now because of the bills.

 

[dave*99]

I used 8 of the CFL bulbs shown below in an 800 SF garage with painted white walls and ceiling. They consume 105W each and put out the equivalent light of a 500W incandescent bulb. The white walls and ceiling are key here. The light is reflected well. They work great. Plenty of light. They cost about $29 each. No failures in 4 years.

The OP mentioned using 25 fixtures. There is no way I could use 25 of these bulbs, it would be blinding. BTW I learned of these bulbs on GJ. If you search the archives you will see other photos of them in use.

Excuse the mess, the photo was taken while the garage was under construction.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Let's not forget almost everything incandescent above 40W is now out of production...

I won't use CFL's if I can avoid it. There's no good way for a home owner to legally dispose of them and they're worse for the environment than any coal burning bulb they replace...

Tommy

 

[iagsxr]

so why not spend less than 20 bucks for some cfls and get the same amount of light and much cheaper bill?

Don't like the light from CFLs.

I messed around a little bit with bulbs when I first did the garage. The 150w clears are what works for me in that garage.

Notice there won't be a single incandescent bulb in my new shop, but you can light with them.

It's a pay me now or pay me later thing.

 

[offroadsteve]

Ok... you guys have converted me. I started writing this post to say y'all were out to lunch and the numbers didn't make any sense. But now that i've done the numbers, I stand corrected:

For the T8s fluorescents: 50 ten watt bulbs = 500W power consumption. At $0.11 kW/hr, thats $0.055 per hour of operation.

Assuming 100W incandecents, 25 bulbs = 2500W power consumption. Again at $0.11 kW/hr, thats $0.275 per hour of operation, for a difference in operating cost of $0.22 per hour.

Using the Op's numbers again, he would break even on the $562 initial savings after 2,554 hours of operation. Lets say he spends 24 hours a week in his shop, thats 106 weeks to break even, or about 2 years.

You can clearly see why every commercial building in the world uses flourescents, whith the lights running even 8 hours a day, your payback time shrinks to less than a year. Not including maintenance of course. If you are Wal-Mart and run the lights 24/7, thats 106 DAYS (just over 3 months). That is the definition of a no-brainer.

Now you could argue that a one for one swap of 4' T8 bulbs to 100W incandecents isn't quite fair, and I haven't run the numbers on lumens to compare, i'm just going with what the OP listed.

Also, different electric rates in different parts of the country would also effect this calculation. Since the OP is in TX, I would expect similar power costs to us here in VA.

 

[2ManyProjects]

There is so much written about using fluorescent lighting in the garage, I guess there is something I'm missing. I completely understand that fluorescent's save energy, but if you look at the cost of purchase of the bulbs and fixtures, it would take many years for the average garage user to recoup the investment.

Not really.

Modern fluorescent lights are so much more efficient (on a lumens/watt basis) that they can nearly always offset their initial expense rather quickly, at least as compared to conventional incandescent bulbs.

I have a 850 sq. ft. garage and workshop. It's all going to be drywalled with fresh semi gloss white on the walls and ceilings, with light beige epoxy flooring going in. The cheapest 4' T8 fixtures I can find are about $20 each, with another $5 for a pair of bulbs. At $25 a fixture, I figure I will need about 25 fixtures, for a total cost of around $625.

So you're figuring on 50 F32T8 tubes, for a total of about 140,000 lumens (at the sources, with fresh tubes). That's quite a bit of light (~165 lumens/ft.^2, again based on SOURCE lumens); but in and of itself, that's OK. Hold that thought.

Instead I can buy simple keystone fixtures for incandescents bulbs for about $1.50 each, and another $1 each for bulbs. 25 of these fixtures will cost around $63, a savings of around $562.

But those 25 incandescent bulbs won't produce anything like the same amount of light as a similar number of F32T8 tubes. You didn't specify exactly which incandescent bulbs you expected to be able to buy for a buck each; but let's be generous and use these (at ~$1.25 each, if "bought right") as a typical example:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/110813/PHILIPS-139997.html

[Note that save for backlogged "stock on hand", these are now available ONLY from offshore, as all U.S. production halted more than two years ago. And they will surely only become more expensive as time goes on, due to the restricted availability. But let's set all that aside, for now.]

The rated output of this bulb is approximately 1,600 lumens, which is about typical for a 100W incandescent. It's rated life is just 750 hours; also typical.

So you will need nearly two of these (along with the additional fixtures and wiring to support them, of course) to replace each and every one of those F32T8 tubes. So, instead of 25 twin-tube fluorescent fixtures, you're now looking at installing nearly ONE HUNDRED of those cheap "keystone fixtures". But that's the least of it...

Check out any of the various representative tubes listed here:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/f32t8-fluorescent-tubes-5000k/

You'll find that their useful life is rated at anywhere from about 24,000 hours to over 40,000 hours. Many are rated at 30,000 hours; so lets use that as a nominal figure...

At just 750 hours of expected life, you will need to replace those incandescent bulbs FORTY TIMES before the fluorescent tube presumably fails. So... $1.23 * 80 (remember, we need TWO incandescents to replace one fluorescent tube) = $98.40 (plus the future value of all that money you've got ******* in stockpiled bulbs, because you sure as Hell ought to buy ALL of those replacements NOW, while you can).

And that is STILL not the worst of it...

Over the course of just the FIRST pair of bulbs' projected life, they will consume approximately 150kWH of electricity. At, say, $0.12/kWH (a conservative estimate; adjust as needed for YOUR electrical costs), that's $18.00-worth of juice.

Meanwhile, our nominal 32-watt fluorescent tube, over that same period, has cost you just $2.88 to operate.

That's a difference of $15.12 per tube, or more than $750 total for the garage as a whole, after just 750 hours of operating time (which is less than a year, assuming an average of two hours per night)! It is literally more than a dollar an hour more expensive, for each and every hour you spend in the shop.

That'll pay for more than half of the cost of the epoxy floor.

On the contrary, those "bargain" fixtures/bulbs would cost you an additional $900-1,000 or so per year.

And we haven't even gotten to the part about how the QUALITY of the light is better from a properly implemented fluorescent installation. But seriously... Does this coffin REALLY need any more nails?

Now, for guys who are doing fine detail paint work in the garage, or who have the lights on for 15 hours a day, sure, the fluorescents and the technically perfect lighting distribution that they seemingly produce may make sense. However, for the average guy like me, working on odd house jobs or building and maintaining cars in the garage, I can't imagine incandescents in adequate numbers hindering my work. Additionally, if electric costs are a concern, the keystone fixtures can also be used with screw in fluorescent bulbs to save a watt. They make some high lumen output screw in fluorescents that use considerably less electric than a equivalent incandescent.

Hmmm... Apparently, more nails ARE needed.

Those high-output CFLs have been de-bunked previously (cf. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3704005&postcount=26 and http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3705740&postcount=38); but in short: They are NEVER anywhere near as efficient as linear fluorescents; they ALWAYS cost more both to purchase and to operate; and being point-sources, they produce far less desirable coverage patterns (unless perhaps your ceilings are SO high that you really need high-output "High Bay" fixtures anyway). They beat conventional incandescent bulbs, of course; but as shown above, that's not saying much.

While the technical quality of the light either screw in alternative produces is likely not perfect,

I nominate this for "Understatement of the Week".

I'm sure that turning on 25 incandescent bulbs or screw in fluorescents will be akin to standing on the beach at noon on a clear July day.

That would depend almost entirely on how much space those 25 incandescent bulbs are trying to cover. In a small single-car garage, you'd have plenty of light (albeit, at a horrendous cost); in a 50'x100' pole barn, not so much.

Sometimes I think we just over think things, at some point, it's either bright enough to see what you're doing clearly or it's not.

It's not JUST about "brightness". There are many other factors which influence the quality of the lighting in any given workspace. But the basic cost/benefit projections are certainly easy enough to work out, if you just put a little thought into it.

 

[sberry]

I would like a cfl to last 22 yars, ha.

 

[Sneeze357]

Over the last year I converted from all incadescent to CFL. My electricity bills have gone up [I live in CA where expenses go up and income goes down yeraly]. It's probably because my rates are going up, but I cant be sure of that. Usage seems less because Im more concious of turning off light now because of the bills.

I don't know why your bill went up, but I can say with 100% certainty it had nothing to do with your CFL bulbs.

I won't use CFL's if I can avoid it. There's no good way for a home owner to legally dispose of them and they're worse for the environment than any coal burning bulb they replace...

Have you heard of this place called "Home Depot"? They may have one near you. Right inside the door is a big box where you dump your CFLs, for free. I would assume that nearly every large retailer of these has such a thing, it may even be required like the places that sell motor oil have to also accept used oil.

Don't like the light from CFLs.

I seriously doubt you have played around with them enough to make that kind of blanket statement. With the correct color temperature and quality of bulb, the light will always be of better quality. With the right bulb you wouldn't be able to tell me if it is incandescent or fluorescent.

Now, if you just get whatever cheap bulb is on sale, and don't pay attention to the color temperature, then I can understand why you would think you don't like the light output.

I would also like to point out that those 150 watt bulbs come with a premium price, I'm sure you can find a CFL with the same output for the same or less money.

 

[ddawg16]

Outstanding posts by twomany and sneeze....nice to see 'some' people have their facts right.

I won't use CFL's if I can avoid it. There's no good way for a home owner to legally dispose of them and they're worse for the environment than any coal burning bulb they replace...

Tommy

And we know you have no data to back that up....because if you did, you wouldn't be able to make that statement.

Bad for the environment? If you had done your research you would find that a CFL releases less mercury into the air than an incandescent.

A majority of the electricity on the East coast comes from coal. Burning enough coal to light an incandescent bulb releases more mercury into the air than the combined mercury in the CFL and the coal burned to light it.

Additionally, when incandescent s are used as lighting in a house in the summer....your also using more electricity to run the AC to remove the heat from the house created by the lights.

One little technical fact a lot of guys fail to realize....the wattage of the bulb is how much heat it is putting out...a 65w bulb is generating 65 watts of heat. A 23 watt bulb...well...23w of heat.

Last thing....I have not had an issue with disposing of bulbs....In the 14 years I've been in my house...I've replaced 4 CFL's. The ground floor of my garage has 16 CFL's....been in operation for 4 years...I have yet to replace any of those bulbs.

 

[Bunchgrass]

First - the HD in my area doesn't have any CFL dump box that I've ever seen and I've been there enough that they know my first name on sight. Maybe it's not an everywhere thing.

Second - the OP needs 25 4foot fluorescent fixtures to light 850 ft2? That seems like overkill. My shop is more than twice that size and I have 12 pr of 4' fixtures (24 total) running 32WT8 bulbs 12 ft above the floor ...... plenty of light.

One theory for lighting a shop is to provide "adequate" general lighting and then have task lighting at specific work spaces that can be turned on as needed. Makes sense to me.

Check out this book:
Setting up shop : the practical guide to designing and building your dream shop

 

[Sneeze357]

First - the HD in my area doesn't have any CFL dump box that I've ever seen and I've been there enough that they know my first name on sight. Maybe it's not an everywhere thing.

Yes, it very much is an everywhere thing. If you can't find the box, ask them. It's usually in the returns area.

 

[e30bradley]

no way that 25 incandescent are equivalent to 25 4' sets of fluorescent in light output.. I think this is a silly question, go with anything but incandescent and your good.

 

[iagsxr]

I seriously doubt you have played around with them enough to make that kind of blanket statement. With the correct color temperature and quality of bulb, the light will always be of better quality. With the right bulb you wouldn't be able to tell me if it is incandescent or fluorescent.

Now, if you just get whatever cheap bulb is on sale, and don't pay attention to the color temperature, then I can understand why you would think you don't like the light output.

I would also like to point out that those 150 watt bulbs come with a premium price, I'm sure you can find a CFL with the same output for the same or less money.

K, which one's should I buy to replace my 150s?

 

[Sneeze357]

K, which one's should I buy to replace my 150s?

Depends on what you want, there are a lot of options. I suggest 1000bulbs.com, they have good prices, and I've had really good service from them.
http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/2-to-200-watt-cfl-compact-fluorescents/?tid=sub

You probably want something around 40w each as a replacement, unless you want more light, then you could go up to a 105 watt or more. Color temperature is a personal preference, 3000k is a warm yellow light like an old bulb, 4100k is a good neutral color for working, 5000k is more white and closer to daylight color, and 6500k is said to be closest to daylight, but I find it to be blueish. You may want to try a few different types and see what you like.

 

[Sneeze357]

Also, I'm sure these have been talked about before, and they aren't really bright enough for general shop lighting, but these Cree LEDs from Home Depot are a really really great replacement for the old 60w bulb and use just 9.5 watts. Zero mercury or flicker and available in two color temperatures. They are even dimmable.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W...ght-Bulb-BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-2U100/204592770
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W...ght-Bulb-BA19-08050OMF-12DE26-2U110/204476611

I think I've seen them on sale even cheaper in the store.

 

[dankicksass]

K, which one's should I buy to replace my 150s?

IMO, best thing you can do for your garage lighting on a minimal budget is get 5000k ish color 26-29w "100w replacement" bulbs and double-tap Y's. You'll need eight bulbs - about $22 at HD - and four Y's. Maximize your light in existing fixtures for about $30.

 

[Trucky]

Yes, it very much is an everywhere thing. If you can't find the box, ask them. It's usually in the returns area.

Never seen that either. How do you know, since you seem to be giving him a little attitude about it.

 

[Sneeze357]

Never seen that either. How do you know, since you seem to be giving him a little attitude about it.

Do you really think you live in a world where people can buy CFLs that cannot be disposed of in normal trash, but don't have a proper place to take them? Home Depot is just one of the places. They are not hard to get rid of. If you can't find a local drop ask around, there is one.

 

[Bunchgrass]

Yes, it very much is an everywhere thing. If you can't find the box, ask them. It's usually in the returns area.

The returns area is right up front ...... where I enter every time I go there. I would think they would certainly promote the fact that they accept spent CFLs if they were doing it. Unless they weren't doing it.

Just out of curiosity, how many HDs have you been to and seen the bins? How many states? Any in Idaho?

"Do you really think you live in a world where people can buy CFLs that cannot be disposed of in normal trash, but don't have a proper place to take them?"

When CFLs first came on the market and for a while after, general trash was where they were being disposed of until the mercury issue hit the news. There was not always a place to dispose of them and I guarantee drop spots are not abundant nor easy to find in my area.

 

[Trucky]

Do you really think you live in a world where people can buy CFLs that cannot be disposed of in normal trash, but don't have a proper place to take them? Home Depot is just one of the places. They are not hard to get rid of. If you can't find a local drop ask around, there is one.

Yes, please, tell me what I think about the subject.

That still doesn't explain how you know, 100%, for sure, that Home Depot locations 'round the world have a CFL drop off box. Hell, a lot of folks don't even know where to take batteries, large and small. So assuming that "everyone knows" about these things is sort of a bad idea, don't you think? And FYI, I have nothing against CFL bulbs. But I'll let it go there.

 

[ddawg16]

Never seen that either. How do you know, since you seem to be giving him a little attitude about it.

I go into a lot of Home Depots in a lot of different states....I don't think I've ever seen one that did NOT have the recycle box.

But, then again, if your not looking for it....I guess you wont' see it....

 

[Sneeze357]

Oh for crying out loud...
http://ext.homedepot.com/shopping-tools/light-bulbs/allaboutcfl.html

The Home Depot is proud to offer free CFL recycling in all U.S. stores.

Also Lowes:
http://www.lowes.com/cd_Recycling_368967519_

Lowe's also made it easier for customers to make a difference by installing recycling centers in more than 1,700 stores throughout the United States. The permanent recycling centers, located at the store entrance, offer a free, convenient and easy way for customers to recycle rechargeable batteries, cell phones, compact fluorescent light bulbs (CFLs) and plastic shopping bags.

 

[Sneeze357]

So assuming that "everyone knows" about these things is sort of a bad idea, don't you think?

Just because people are too lazy to do a quick google search to find them, does not mean that proper recycling outlets do not exist in EVERY state in the USA. Other countries, I don't know, or care.

 

[Trucky]

Oh for crying out loud...
http://ext.homedepot.com/shopping-tools/light-bulbs/allaboutcfl.html

You just can't say the answer and be done with it? The internet makes men of us all, I suppose.

Anyways, I do recall saying "the world", but I guess you got me in the US, right?

(That's called a graceful reply, not that you would know.)

Let me ask you one thing though, did you yourself have to Google that to find that rather cluttered page with that little tidbit on it?

 

[Sneeze357]

You just can't say the answer and be done with it?

Answer what question? What did I not answer?

Anyways, I do recall saying "the world", but I guess you got me in the US, right?

See my post above. Nobody arguing here is from outside the US. I really don't care what they do with the bulbs in other countries.

Let me ask you one thing though, did you yourself have to Google that to find that rather cluttered page with that little tidbit on it?

What does that have to do with anything? Did I already know it existed without googling it? Yes. Did I have to google it because you couldn't find the big orange box at the front door? Yes.

 

[Trucky]

One more go at this, since you're getting all steamy about it.

First: I didn't insist anywhere that you did not answer the question. The question: How did you know that there were drop boxes in all of the stores. You answered it. Is that simple enough? To do it without an attitude.. yes, that's what you're missing. Also missing, a bit of reading comprehension.

2nd: You brought locations outside the US when you said "everywhere". Forgive me for actually reading what you wrote.

And the third: Because I believe that most people wouldn't take the time, or wouldn't care to look at that page with a ton of information on it just to find that little sentence about the boxes.

Have at it.