Why not the bench scope?

[original_chisel]

Having read most of the posts here on scopes, I'm still stumbling with this one.
What makes a bench scope a poor or bad choice for use in automotive work?
Not that its been said outright but only one contributor appeared enthusiastic about them (Rigol 1054Z).
Surely it cannot be the need for mains power since that's the same 'limitation' a powerful shop light has. Wouldn't a small cart and a long extension cord take care of that?
What am I missing?
Note there is no way for me to 'try-before-buy'*, test or even see any of the various options.

PS:-*Not complaining. Its just that in my corner these devices are as plentiful as snow-ploughs.

 

[Lassen Forge]

It's not that they're bad, there's just smaller options available to do the same thing... but I actually like the old school scopes, hard as they are to keep running, as I can focus these older eyes on the old school CRT better... You also have to know how to set it up, not rely on built in software to make it do what you want it to...

Probably the only downside is their age... caps go bad, tubes go south, and people don't know how to fix them.

 

[richfinn]

The bench type DSOs do the same thing

Bit more awkward to take on test drives

Factor in the automotive leads/clamps/attenuators and accessories that you get in a Pico or Automotive scopemeter first!!

Then there is the software (free to download from pico so you can have a play around), this makes it much easier to get fast accurate results!!!

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Number 1, if they cant store a buffer, you're extremely limited in what you can capture. Just seeing a pwm signal bouncing across a screen isnt telling you much if you cant review it after.

If you're referring to the member I'm thinking of, he is not a mechanic nor has ever fixed car professionally. He "thinks" the bench top model would suffice. And for some things,it would. But in the real world where its 90* with 90% humidity and you need to just get a waveform, there's a reason the kings of automotive are just that.

1 second/division, 10seconds per screen, 32 screens worth of data, and I can zoom in on secondary ignition traces. Pico software is great for rulers and measurements.

 

[original_chisel]

"..If you're referring to the member I'm thinking of, he is not a mechanic nor has ever fixed car professionally. He "thinks" the bench top model would suffice.."

Hi!Hi! Now now 2ndGearRubber, no digital punches please (Hi!hi!).

Actually the goodly gentleman does seem knowledgeable enough. But I do take note of your points, well made.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

"..If you're referring to the member I'm thinking of, he is not a mechanic nor has ever fixed car professionally. He "thinks" the bench top model would suffice.."

Hi!Hi! Now now 2ndGearRubber, no digital punches please (Hi!hi!).

Actually the goodly gentleman does seem knowledgeable enough. But I do take note of your points, well made.

Oh, certainly no punches meant to be thrown, JMO of his position. While bench top scopes would be usable in automotive..... They are NOT the quick/easy way to make money using a scope in automotive. Without things like degree rulers, cursors, hell even preprogramed units for probes you're hurting yourself. Can they save files to share with others or review later? Can you compare sample waveforms? Do they have a waveform library of known goods? How much can you manipulate the signal after capture? How long is the buffer? Can it handle life in a shop? What's the peak voltage it can see? Can it AC couple signals?

I looked into going the bench-top route. "The best scope to have is the one you will use". It's not just about being able to physically have the specs to capture the signal, it's analysis that sets them apart. The amazon reviews of that unit have people looking at sine/square waves, pretty easy "yes/no" "go/no-go" kind of stuff. That sort of thing isn't really what an automotive scope is used for; outside my little 1 channel Uscope for super basic stuff. The Scope is either a long time base multimeter measuring several things at once, or grabbing sequences of data for review, checking for irregularities after the fact.


"CAN" you use a benchtop scope, sure. Is it remotely the ideal tool for the job? Nope.


EDIT: If you get a smoking deal on a Rigol 1054Z, would it be worth a shot to learn automotive scope use? Sure. Better value is waiting on craigslist for a used MODIS IMO.

 

[Danglerb]

Automotive scopes are a lot more plug and play ready, where a bench scope kind of requires that you know how to use a scope. Bench scopes, at least the ones I've used are made for the analog age, without ability to capture single events like a cheap modern digital scope. Final point, shop environment might not lead to a long life for a bench scope.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

If you use a mains-powered scope, make sure you know how to not blow it up

If you get one I recommend a differential probe like the Micsig cheapie. Not great high frequency performance but good for most stuff.

 

[Tallpilot]

Oh, certainly no punches meant to be thrown, JMO of his position. While bench top scopes would be usable in automotive..... They are NOT the quick/easy way to make money using a scope in automotive. Without things like degree rulers, cursors, hell even preprogramed units for probes you're hurting yourself. Can they save files to share with others or review later? Can you compare sample waveforms? Do they have a waveform library of known goods? How much can you manipulate the signal after capture? How long is the buffer? Can it handle life in a shop? What's the peak voltage it can see? Can it AC couple signals?

I looked into going the bench-top route. "The best scope to have is the one you will use". It's not just about being able to physically have the specs to capture the signal, it's analysis that sets them apart. The amazon reviews of that unit have people looking at sine/square waves, pretty easy "yes/no" "go/no-go" kind of stuff. That sort of thing isn't really what an automotive scope is used for; outside my little 1 channel Uscope for super basic stuff. The Scope is either a long time base multimeter measuring several things at once, or grabbing sequences of data for review, checking for irregularities after the fact.


"CAN" you use a benchtop scope, sure. Is it remotely the ideal tool for the job? Nope.


EDIT: If you get a smoking deal on a Rigol 1054Z, would it be worth a shot to learn automotive scope use? Sure. Better value is waiting on craigslist for a used MODIS IMO.

Bench scopes are for component level repair on a nice workstation. You are absolutely right; totally wrong tool for automotive even in a nice clean home garage.

I started with the UScope. I think it is the best gateway for guys specifically interested in automotive. It gives them a scope to play with and start accumulating accessories for. It is also amazingly capable for what it is and cheap enough to not make you cry if you fry it with an inductive kick because you forgot your attenuator.

I agree with you on the next step. Used Modis or Vantage are often cheap and the handholding is great for learning.

The Picoscope is phenomenal and keeps getting better and the more people who get one the more known goods show up on iATN. Any pro should certainly get one as soon as possible and start learning it. It is clearly the way of the future and it will keep the used market flooded with cheap Snap-on scopes for us non-pros.

I am happy with my little Vantage Ultra because I got a good deal on it and haven't ran into anything yet where I really wanted more than two channels. I also like the pinout diagrams because I don't have any pro subscription packages. I even keep it updated since it is only once a year and not too expensive.

 

[richfinn]

This might be a cost effective entry level picoscope

In the UK the 2204a is around £100

You can hack it to run the Automotive software (which is free)

It wont give you all the functions obviously but it looks pretty good for the outlay