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Why put off DIY mini-ductless purchase/install

CWO4GUNNER

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As some of you have read I'm a certified Tech exclusively for my rental units, my main home and the aging 4 ton split central ducted units that are inside them. Here in SW AZ an AC failure in summer requires immediate action and results when its 105-125F outside. I have taken care of the short term (days) emergency by buying 3 new 1 ton window units in storage standby ready to deploy cost $600. Now Its really the intermediate (weeks) to long term (months) I am wrestling with addressing.

Plan (1) Should I wait for the big central AC crash and be in a total rush to first time DIY install mini-split experience that MUST work or pay through the nose for tech intervention?

Plan (2) Should I be preemptive and start buying/DIY installing Mini-splits in my rental units slowly and methodically with tenants annoyed with my seemingly unnecessary repair presence?

Plan (3) Should I DIY install my fist mini-split experience in my garage where ill hardly use it (12K btu).

Plan (4) Should I DIY install my fist mini-split in my house great-room (24K btu X 600sf)? Installing in my own home first would allow me my first DIY mini-split install in peace and quiet, but would also allow me a way to set it up as a backup with combo-locked AC disconnect and hard covered coils. Tenants would only be able to deploy the backup mini system themselves when they call me over the phone to report a central AC failure.

For the price of $1100 for a Mitsubishi 24K btu complete system, I don't think I should wait. Anyone know from history if the prices for mini-splits drop as we approach the holidays? If so then Ill wait.
 
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Angelfire

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I can't tell you if there are seasonal price advantages. Just wanted to make sure you realized the system you linked is not a complete Mitsubishi....says it may have a Mitsubishi compressor but the rest of the unit is by others. May be a great system, or not.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Its funny how a certain response will trigger an unrelated but supportive thought by the OP. In my case your comment Angelfire I realize is true, but being that the compressor is the heart of the system usually with respect to life expectancy, it seems to be a good balance between "brand" over the top pricing and affordable cost. But like I said you made me think about something I forgot and should have asked, parts list and availability, pricing and support. I mean if I cant buy a board for a reasonable price reliability and warranty don't mean much. With respect to warranty Im waiting to hear back from a few suppliers if they are going to honor my certification and license. Even though I'm a technician with only one client, myself (landlord). You wouldn't believe how we get along. :D
 

Jackfre

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It wouldn't hurt to get your chops down on your own house. Frequently it is the little layout issues that tie you up initially. For instance, facing the evaporator, I always try to being my drain line off at the left side which provides more room for the line set laying across the back.

On of the best parts of these is the majority of your work on the tenants place will be outside. Once you set, connect and wire the evaporator you are done inside.

On my Fujitsu's the mounting plate has two marks that show where the line set is cut. If you know they are there it makes is much easier than trying to muscle up, hold and mark the tubing.
 

JimL

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Just pay someone that knows what they are doing to show up with all materials/tools to do the job and be done in a few hours…

If you're so worried about being without ac, why would you be so interested in installing some knockoff brand unit? They are hardly what a mitsubishi unit is. Just a very cheap knockoff. Where are you going to get parts for it when it breaks down?
 

DEnd

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I'd do the garage first(if you actually want one in your garage), then your home system. This will allow you to get comfortable with the system, figure out a quick-ish way to install them, and give you a good idea on how to do it neatly, and cleanly.

I would try to focus on doing the replacements during unit turn over, that way when you do have to disturb a tenet and do an occupied unit replacement you can do it as fast as you can while still doing a good job.

It may also be worth finding a manufacturers' education program for installation and repair.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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On my Fujitsu's the mounting plate has two marks that show where the line set is cut. If you know they are there it makes is much easier than trying to muscle up, hold and mark the tubing.

Thanks. Iv pictured everything you said in my mind excect that part quoted. If necessary I do plan to shorten the lineset, then flair or braise. Question..after you installed and tightened the linset and pressure tested with nitrogen, if you had discovered a drop in pressure and it was necessary to leak test the line connections including those at the evaporator, would it be very difficult at that point with the evap secured, connected, and lineset slack removed, to access those fittings? I mean are the fittings accessible for easy leak detect testing, or would you have to pull the evaporator back away from the wall?
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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I'd do the garage first(if you actually want one in your garage), then your home system. This will allow you to get comfortable with the system, figure out a quick-ish way to install them, and give you a good idea on how to do it neatly, and cleanly.


I appreciate and its sound logic for someone who is uncomfortable with using and applying the use of complex tasks and tools. By trade I was a robotics engineer working on hydraulics, pneumatics, electronic and electrical actuating and control devices. So for me this is just a matter of new and different application of old skills. Which means I can skip that garage and better apply it to my house. I just have to be carful to go over every step in my head first including all potential pitfalls. Even then not be in a hurry or make any assumptions, which includes stopping and asking seasoned AC technicians like yourself valid and comprehensive questions. Not what do I do next...
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Just pay someone that knows what they are doing to show up with all materials/tools to do the job and be done in a few hours…
If you're so worried about being without ac, why would you be so interested in installing some knockoff brand unit? They are hardly what a mitsubishi unit is. Just a very cheap knockoff. Where are you going to get parts for it when it breaks down?

I thought I could trim down part of your quote, but it call me out on a few things, and even though the answers are obvious I'll go ahead and point them out.

(1) Why don't I just pay someone else? Because I consider myself confident and qualified enough to DIY the job. Saving myself a huge amount of money. Bersides I'm retired and time is something I have in plenty.

(2) Why am I so worried? Your mistaking worry for contingency planning, something that wasinstilled in my 30 years of military service staring at 17.

(3) Cheap knock off brands with no parts...Well unless your work for the company I don'tthink your qqualified to say that. But I'm looking in to it and will let you know.

PS...I already have all the HVAC tools supplied to me just waitng to be used as part of my Post 911 GI Bill education benifits
 
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JimL

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I have ran into several of these knockoffs, they are nothing like the mitsubishi's I sell.
Loud, not near as efficient, quality isn't there, much fewer features, parts, well they don't exist…
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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I have ran into several of these knockoffs, they are nothing like the mitsubishi's I sell.
Loud, not near as efficient, quality isn't there, much fewer features, parts, well they don't exist…

You wouldn't be giving me an early sales pitch xmas.... Just joking. Please PM me and provide me the alternatives, Im open at this point to any and all brand recommendations.

But most importantly from those members who have years of reliable history with a mini-split model that are not making an extra premium on me using their brand name alone. There is always an up and coming non-celebrity brand that is doing everything it can to grow and keep potential long term customers. Please give me the dope on these as well.:)
 

pseudorealityx

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Mitsubishi, Daiken, Fujitsu, LG, and Sanyo are the big brands that you have a good product, good support, etc. Of those, Mitsubishi's been here in the States the longest, and has the biggest distribution. Some of the other brands' support is a bit more regional.

I get paid to consult on what people SHOULD buy for their HVAC application, but get zero back based on brands, models, cost, etc.

If you're a car guy.... the analogy that the compressor is the 'heart' of the system is like taking a Corvette engine and putting it into some half-assed home-built kit car thing and saying it's as good as a Corvette because the engine is the same.

Also, who pays for utilities at these rentals? If the renter, then why do you care about efficiency? If you, then again, due to the increased maintenance required by ductless split systems, you should keep that in mind what you're getting into. Also that while their popularity is growing, they still don't have the distribution and support that a standard Trane, Carrier, Lennox, York/JCI system is going to have.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Well I do happen to do all my own auto mechanics except wheel-aliment, auto-AC, and auto-trans (spring loaded trash cans). Everything else auto I work on myself since I was 16 and had to assemble my 1st car from a great deal I got on an assortment of car parts from the junk yard, chassis, engine exc exc. I don't officially do auto AC becasue I forgot to take my piggy-back Esso auto AC test (oh well).

Kidding aside, I understand what your trying to say about rentals use, and tenant expectations/needs. I can only try and encapsulate my answer by saying that I have been a landlord since 2005 and its the oldest job in history with huge benefits but requiring allot of social discernment and diplomacy skills. So I can assure you the AC need is there and coming for the tenants (the customer) who need to be taken care of, and the property (monthly golden goose). If its any consolation I can tell you that I care and require much more from of my rental property and tenants then I do from myself/home. In fact I would never rent to someone like myself, way too messy lol.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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I have been researching customer and industry reviews on "top name" VS Other brand names and what I discovered is that those companies that are allowed to use "Top Name" components and advertise their logo have a vested stakeholders in those companies. You will find that the instruction and installation guides are well written and similar to stake holder. In this case Mitsubishi is a stakeholder in Air-Con. Just as Toshiba is a stakeholder in Kimaire mini-split systems. Fujitsu is one of the few that are not invested in other relabeled brands. The more Iv looked into this the more it makes sense and when you consider the investment is twice as much just to buy the logo, I would be far better off buying 2 Air-Con relabeled systems invested with Mitsubishi parts at half the price ($1100) each, than just one of the Logo named models for (2200) at the same capacity. That's my opinion anyway.

Now I just have to wait for an answer back if they are going to honor my certification as 1 client technician with multiple units to support. If I had the time I request dealer status and cater to just landlords with DIY instructions. maybe once I get out of the landlord business.
 

pseudorealityx

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How are your 'units' laid out? Multiple rooms? Because you'll need an evaporator head in the main living room, as well as each bedroom. And hopefully it's close enough to the kitchen so that doesn't overheat, or else you'll need another head there. So you might save a lot on the off-brand stuff, but can it do what you need it to do? Seems like you're not even looking at the multi-head units.

You talk about not bothering your customers, yet you want a system that you're going to have to go into their living room and bedroom on certain basis to pull the evaporators apart to clean.

You may be the best DIY dude out there, but if you think that you can let a ducted split system crash, install a single heat ductless split on a wall, and have a 'solution', you're mistaken. You don't seem to have put much thought into the actual design of your system.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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First off I'm not the best DIY guy, in fact although I consider myself good, Im way too methodical to make it as a high customer volume HVAC technician. thank God I only have one client who believes in me. Secondly I have no doubt that your a ninja in your field as I can feel your tech-breath.

Quite simply I plan to use the kiss system and keep things a simple and low cost as possible, while maximizing value and effectiveness. Where those two lines cross is where lm aiming. My idea is to go oversized in the front entry room and have the perimeter rooms (no hallways) benefit using installed forced air (blower) ducted venting.

FYI I don't plan on scraping the installed central AC, as the mini split will be the backup as previously mentioned. What the mini split affords me is the long term ability to maintain the current R22 system and make efficiency upgrades using still in stock higher seer rated R22 components inside/outside. You know, sort of like having a spare tire to use while the other flat is being changed out with a retread. I realize the key will be sizing the 1 unit for a 1605SF home. Good idea uh :D

PS...The wall mounted evaporator will be 12ft from the return air duct. But with no hall ways and all rooms in perimeter of the great room, might not even need it. It may be that I will need a 3 ton unit though.
 
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JimL

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Why would you want to upgrade the r22 system? Whole idea is to get rid of r22 stuff now and go with what has the most availability…r410a...
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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What's so confusing about swapping out good used Goodman 14-18 seer R22 coil sets
for my 9 seer units. Goodman is huge in this area and homeowners are being taked/taken into the new R410a high pressure systems left and right, besides I have allot of R22 on hand. So onece one of my Goodman compressor dies, Ill clean up and pick up a higher rated outside unit/coil for cents on the dollar. I know...It won't work says the techy....but its done all the time here and works. Besides with a backup mini split taking over, I'll have the time to make it work. Worst case scenario I have to do a complete rip-out and new installed MYSELF. But why not have fun trying? Nothing tried nothing gained! :D
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Anyway one thing at a time right?....first the 24000 BTU ConAir Mitsubishi mini single evap install into the front room close to the air handler for 1605sf distribution. Then if not enough a second 24000 BTU ConAir Mitsubishi installed spaced 30ft apart with T-stats matched to work together. That's a total of only $2200 for 2 tons! :thumbup:
 
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DEnd

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Even then not be in a hurry or make any assumptions, which includes stopping and asking seasoned AC technicians like yourself valid and comprehensive questions. Not what do I do next...

Good lord don't count on me to provide you good answers. I'm a RN not a HVAC tech. (hence why I'm all about getting ventilation right) Ask me about your HbA1c, or the side effects of ****** and I can get you good answers. I've done enough construction and remodeling I can mostly keep from hitting my thumb with a hammer. I have enough interest in mini-splits to understand most of their advantages and disadvantages over traditional systems. But installing one? About the only thing I'm probably qualified for on that is screwing it up.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Good lord don't count on me to provide you good answers. I'm a RN not a HVAC tech. (hence why I'm all about getting ventilation right) Ask me about your HbA1c, or the side effects of ****** and I can get you good answers. I've done enough construction and remodeling I can mostly keep from hitting my thumb with a hammer. I have enough interest in mini-splits to understand most of their advantages and disadvantages over traditional systems. But installing one? About the only thing I'm probably qualified for on that is screwing it up.

Sorry, I miss took you for one of the HVAC Tech posters who I believe is little critical of DIY mini split installs. I'm trying to be nice so I can later ask him some important questions during the project. But I get the feeling that other than criticism I may only get help from unqualified DIYers who have successfully completed a mini split install. This has made me realize I will have to document my install as HVAC correct and as detailed as possible so that by posing it other DIYers who have limited incomes or with young families can benefit and still have enough to eat. After all this procedure isn't rocket science or even minor surgery and it sure as heck shouldn't cost as much. I think even manufacturers are starting to break away and see the untapped potential market in making DIY installs more DIY friendly for those direct purchase customer that are out there. There will always be more than enough unskilled, fat pockets, elderly and disabled who must pay those high priced quote installs costing more than the product to go around. This of course excludes all the HVAC technicians, small independents and small companies out there that are loved by their customers and very word of mouth popular becasue they quote and charge a livable fee, and stand by their work. Sadly there are just a few in any large community.
 
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pseudorealityx

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They didn't make high SEER R-22 units that long before the R-410a came out. I think you're positioning yourself to have supply problems down the road. R-22 isn't going to get any cheaper, replacement parts are going to be hard to find, you will never be able to upgrade, etc.

But at least you're spending a lot of money on stop-gap measures that will will ugly up your units, require an additional thing to sit in the yard, and maybe get used every 5 years when something breaks?

I just don't get it.

If you want redundancy and reliability, why don't you just buy a spare R-22 condensing unit and fan coil so you've got a mostly plug-n'-play solution if one of the central units goes down? Keep them in storage, and then you should be able to replace with 'new' within a day or two of the initial system going down. Grab a window unit for a bedroom as a short term solution.


Again with an analogy... Let's say you've got a nice room with built-in down lights mounted in the gyp ceiling. Your solution sounds to me like you want to put in a big hideous lamp with LED bulbs, but ONLY to use it when the down-lights break. But you're going to leave that lamp in the room all the time, just in case! And you're telling me how efficient the LED bulbs are... that you're not using. And their some knock-off bulbs from China. And did I mention the lamp is ugly.

It's just not a 'solution'.


<--- actual licensed registered HVAC design engineer. Don't ask me about your blood pressure!
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Well one great thing about our brains is as we turn this information in our heads, mine anyway, the ideas get more streamlined along with the savings. Its almost like building every part of a project completely in your head first. It will always be a little different in real time, but a lot of mistakes and wasted time get worked out before you commit. These replies have helped me put things in perspective and shape my plan for the better.

As of now for reasons that have already been discussed im going to only install two 24000 BTU mini-split in my own home garage and great room with enough wall spacing for the 2nd to also go in my great room (not the garage) if needed. This will give me the mini-split install experience for my other rental units when and if the central ducted units crash hard, hopefully one at a time. During which time I will used the three 1 ton window ACs in storage standby to fill the mini-split installation time gap. Hopefully no more then 2 days tops.

Installing the mini-splits in my home first will also allow me to do much needed practice work on my central AC, hooking up my unused Sman4 and checking SH/SC against the manufacture and weighing in the needed amount low charge from my virgin 30LB bottle of R22, using my unused Master Cool auto-off scale. I'm sure I am probubly at least a couple pounds low in 11 years.

I just have to do everything in the right order. Yup its going to be a fun early fall season project. Fall here being in the 80's lol. All that's left is to decide on which Mini-Split supplier to go with based on cost, quality, and warranty /parts cooperation.:confused:
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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You sound like some of my customers lol

They either leak or they don't. Have 45 year old systems i service that don't leak or need any gas.

Well 2 years ago before I got my Cert & license I took advantage of the free HVAC inspection flyer because my Delta-T was 12F. The Technician showed up and showed me (not that it meant anything to me at the time) on his gauge-set that I was 2.2Lbs low on refrigerant at $75 per pound and that I also was in need of a Chinese fan capacitor since the fan-side of the dual capacitor was reading poor $50. He also warned me that he could not guarantee the charge unless I allowed him to find the leak $500. I passed asking him that if it took 9 years to lose 2 pounds perhaps it would take another 9 years to lose 2 more pounds, but my Delta-T was now at 22F! After he left I took a nap and woke up from the heat in the house at 90F and I could hear the compressor complaining without the fan running. Thankfully Im a retired weapons systems engineer and removed the Chinese capacitor and moved the connectors back to the fan side of the old dual capacitor and the unit was back on line cooling the house.

It was at that moment something snapped I too realized that I could become the wizard from OZ, the man behined the curtain. So a month later I was in HVAC class.

So none of my 11 year old rentals have had a technician touch them (phobia) although I have done house keeping and changed out all the capacitors and contactors. But they have never had a gauge set put one them to see where they are at only Delta-T none below 15F. But I think its time I get ready to check them out and determine if there is a need.
 
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Ohmthis

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Gunner, please don't take this the wrong way, but having book/classroom training doesn't make you a technician. I respect your previous experience as it does encompass a lot of the skills needed to become a good tech. In all of your posts you talk about all of these new tools that have never been used. I would assume they taught you how to PM a system at school, get out and do that. Check your own, your neighbors, family, you just need to use your book skills and get field experience. I know you are retired, but ever thought about getting a job in the hvac field?

As for your plan, why buy the equipment and install, for a rainy day when you can go to the local supply house and get a new condenser or compressor and change them out the same day? That would give you a whole lot less headaches. Have you gone to any of the local supply houses to see if they will accept your certs?
 

bazar01

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If you want redundancy and reliability, why don't you just buy a spare R-22 condensing unit and fan coil so you've got a mostly plug-n'-play solution if one of the central units goes down? Keep them in storage, and then you should be able to replace with 'new' within a day or two of the initial system going down. Grab a window unit for a bedroom as a short term solution.

^^^^+1

You can replace a condensing unit in 3 hours.
Replacing an evaporator coil will be a torture though if located up in the attic. But if you start early 6am, not too bad and be done by 10AM.
But you have to have a spare codensing unit and evap coil. Way better than running new power and new line sets for a mini split.
Practice on your brazing and leak testing skills and you will be ok.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Well you know for me now...it really not a matter of wrestling or worrying about the technical or skill-set challenge, to me in a non pressure environment (landlording), it has always been the simplist, most cost effective, and fun way of doing the job. The truly hard part is always the magnitude of the job without relying on any help. I have always been a big believer in simpler smaller technologies to do the same job. And now with age 60 around the corner those mini-split systems sure seem a pretty sight for sore muscles and joints with respect to installation, rip-out, and future maintenance. As far as work goes, being a full-time on call landlord is really a business and having learned the art of cost avoidance is a big part of that. Along with my military retirement its enough to get by and give me unrushed time to get things done.

I'm still crunching the project and yesterday told by the supplier my cert and licensed would be honored for self installation. Still working out whether to install one 24k BTU or two 12k BTU single head units for a 1605 SF home
 
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GarageWarrior

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BTW, if anybody's looking for affordable refrigerant to keep those old AC systems running, there is a very low cost alternative that will give identical performance.

I had an old car that needed R12 charge. R12 is ridiculously expensive and hard to get. After looking around I found that a mixture of 21% isobutane and 79% propane can be used as an equivalent substitute for R12 (compatible with mineral oil, same cooling performance, same high/low pressure). Actually straight propane will give even better cooling, but head pressure shoots up and might be too high for some compressor, I burned out one clutch doing that, so had to dial pressure back down with Isobutane. If you fill with IsoPro by weight - fill to 40% and that will give equivalent volume. That's for R-12, so double check on R-22.

Here's my notes from when I did the fill-up:

Gas weights:
R12 120.91 g/mol
Propane 44.1 g/mol
Isobutane 58.12 g/mol
34.839 + 12.205 = 47.0442
0.389084442974113 should be the mix replacement ~0.39

To charge R12 system with isobutane and propane mix:
* Evacuate the system (draw vacuum for 20 minutes)
* Add liquid MSR IsoPro to high side with engine off (add liquid because in gas form propane will be added before isobutane, add to high side because it can all flow in to condenser without the danger of locking up the pump). For Civic - total: 8.91oz, 21% isobutane 79% propane => 1.87 oz isobutane, 7.04 oz propane => MSR IsoPro 2.34oz / propane 6.57oz. Isopro cans have a valve that stay opens only as long as it's being held manually open. Remainder of isopro in the hose can be extracted out by starting the engine and opening up low side/suction side valve. Use very thin hose to ensure that the amount of isopro in the hose is minimal.

* Add propane gas to low side with engine running

--- 07/18/2012 User opinion:

* How could I make an HC based replacement if I wanted to?
You want to upgrade to an HC based refrigerant for better performance. But you don't want to send a lot of money to OZ technology, or you can't find them. This section is for you. It describes how you can make your own refrigerant from commonly available hydrocarbons. The procedures described in this section were taken from rec.auto.tech archives, dating from June 1991 to the present. Most of the text can be attributed to either George Goble or John DeArmond.

************************************************************************ DisclaimerSome of the procedures described in this section may not be legal. Refilling some types of pressurized containers is illegal, as is replacing R-12 directly with a non EPA approved substitute.

Several states have banned flammable refrigerants outright. The current list is:Arkansas, Conn., Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington , DC.

Check with your state to see what the exact restrictions are, if any.

Hydrocarbons weight much less than CFCs, consequently much less mass is required to achieve the same pressures. Always charge using gauges to prevent overfilling. Check the pressure and temperature of your blend if you pre-mix and store. The pressure should be the same as R-12 at the same temperatures. Adding propane will increase the pressure at a given temperature, adding iso-butane will reduce it.

************************************************************************

The most commonly asked about hydrocarbon mix is 21% isobutane, 79% propane, by weight. Note that is isobutane, not butane or n-butane. This mix has the same temperatures and pressures as R-12, but performs better in your A/C system, partially due to being a blend. Hydrocarbons weigh less than CFCs, so you will need about half the weight of hydrocarbons to achieve the same performance. The paragraphs below describe how to charge this mix directly into your A/C system from the can, and how to pre-mix it in a large container for future use. Be sure to charge with gauges so you can stop at the appropriate pressure. Do not add the same weight as you would if it were R-12.

Side tappers are available from JC Whitney and other places. A side tapper is a device that taps a can by piercing the side of the can, rather than the top. It will work on the small cans of refrigerants as well as cans containing other substances, whereas the standard A/C tapper will only work on refrigerant cans. In a ruling from the summer of 1995, the EPA ruled that it is illegal to use side tappers on cans of approved refrigerants. Use them on R-12, or on your custom blend, but it's illegal to use them on R-134a or any other approved R-12 substitute. You're supposed to use the fitting on top of the can.

HOW TO GET IT-------------Isobutane is available as the fuel used in Gaz brand camping stoves. Read the label to make sure you are getting isobutane and not n-butane. isobutane is generally used in stoves designed for low temperature use. Gaz sells both plus a propane/butane mix so read the label. Propane is conveniently available in propane torch cylinders. The odorant does notharm its use as a refrigerant. Don't use gas grill propane. This stuffis generally fairly wet.

HOW TO PRE-MIX IT-----------------You'll need two old torch bodies fitted with refrigeration flare fittings, an empty propane torch cylinder, a side tapper, and some standard refrigeration service hose.

An empty propane torch cylinder makes a very good mixing container, particularly the large fat ones. An old torch valve fitted with a refrigeration flare fitting lets you use it with A/C equipment. The procedure is simple and requires only a scales of some sort. A postage scale will work fine. Evacuate the propane cylinder if you have a vacuum pump. Then using a side tapper for blow-off cans (the type that punches a hole in the side of the can), introduce the correct weight of isobutane from the Gaz cylinder. Then top the cylinder off with the required weight of propane from another propane torch cylinder. Warmingthe donor cylinder will drive the process. A second torch body fitted with a refrigeration flare will let you hook the two cylinders together with a refrigeration service hose. Be sure not to overfill the recipient cylinder. Check this by slightly lifting the safety valve with the cylinder sitting upright. If liquid comes out (white mist, real cold), bleed the cylinder until the liquid is below the bottom of the safety valve. Needless to say, do all this outside.

Before using the mix, double check the accuracy of the blend by comparing the vapor pressure in the cylinder to its temperature. This is easily done using refrigeration gauges. The vapor pressure should agree with that of R-12 +- 10 psi or so. When using your mix, charge with the bottle upside down, ie liquid into the system. Otherwise the propane will charge first due to it's higher pressure. Charging as a liquid ensures that both the propane and iso-butane charge according to their proportions. Be careful to charge slowly, however, because if the liquid gets back to the compressor it can destroy it.

When you modify a torch body, you'll need to find and drill out all restrictions that limit the propane flow to the torch. Typically there is a restriction and/or a check valve in the barb that taps the cylinder and another one downstream of the control valve.

BTW, propane torch cylinders make convenient replacements for blow-off cans. They are much more gas-tight than the typical disposable freon cylinder so transfering valuable R-12, GHG-12 or whatnot makes real good sense. And they are more reliable. Instant sickness is dropping a 30 lb can of freon onto something that punctures it. :-( Be sure to label the cylinder contents.

It is illegal to refill and transport disposable containers. BBQ grill containers are legal to refill, but are much less convenient. Be sure whatever container you use is clean initially.

HOW TO CHARGE DIRECTLY INTO THE A/C SYSTEM------------------------------------------Go get a 6oz can of "isobutane" camping fuel. Charge that into the evacuated system first. Next follow up with 16 oz of propane (you will have to crock up a fitting to mate with a 16 oz torch tank). That should be close to correct blend and amount of charge to run a typical car A/C. It will be slightly lower in capacity then R-12. This mix will be 27% isobutane, 73% and will cause lower pressures than R-12, but should be close enough to work. The best mixture is 21% isobutane, 79% propane, so adding less isobutane and more propane will help. When it is time to recharge again, vent the remaining charge, and start over with a new fresh charge as the isobutane and propane will leak at different rates.
 

pseudorealityx

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999
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USA
Well you know for me now...it really not a matter of wrestling or worrying about the technical or skill-set challenge, to me in a non pressure environment (landlording), it has always been the simplist, most cost effective, and fun way of doing the job. The truly hard part is always the magnitude of the job without relying on any help. I have always been a big believer in simpler smaller technologies to do the same job. And now with age 60 around the corner those mini-split systems sure seem a pretty sight for sore muscles and joints with respect to installation, rip-out, and future maintenance. As far as work goes, being a full-time on call landlord is really a business and having learned the art of cost avoidance is a big part of that. Along with my military retirement its enough to get by and give me unrushed time to get things done.


blah blah blah.

I'm still crunching the project and yesterday told by the supplier my cert and licensed would be honored for self installation. Still working out whether to install one 24k BTU or two 12k BTU single head units for a 1605 SF home

Neither is a good solution. Both are BAD solutions. But feel free to keep ignoring EVERYONE here who has make careers doing this stuff.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Aug 17, 2014
Messages
229
Location
BHC AZ
Look my dear friend give me a break, you may still feel the spring in your chicken, but my bones and tendons remind me Im almost 60.

Having said that let me add that of course if I were either still 30 years old OR I had a spacious 8ft high finished and insulated attic complete with man-room workshop where all my AC mechanicals were cleanly available in the conditioned space including all the metal round duct-work, and I had a large hinged gable roof opening with a electric boom wench to raise and low major components, then I would love to re-install a traditional split system. But that is not the case and if technicians here refuse to go into a hot attic in the middles of august (150F) and I don't blame them, why would I look forward in the middle of winter climbing in fiberglass rat litter getting poked by roof nails and performing balance-beam acts that would make an olympian nervous? No-no, The ductless mini-split is like a cold drink at arms length on a hot day, while (for me) a traditional ducted system is like a six-pack deep in the brier-patch, beyound the alligator and mosquito infested quick-sand bog. You say better Ill give you that, perhaps your right and Im wrong. But I don't have the extra cash to hire you beyound the cost of a traditional split system components, something like $12000 vs $2500 for a DIY mini-split. I mean how much plainer can it be for a limited income has-bin like me. :dunno:
 

Ohmthis

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Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
3,014
Location
Outside of Louisville KY
I still don't think you are looking at this in an apples to apples comparison. The whole mini-split system will run what around $2500-$3000? A new condenser will be $800-$1100 depending on brand and size. AN acoil even less. The amount of work involved is even more separated. 5 hours tops for a condenser change. Maybe a little more for the evaporator coil. How long for the mini-split install? We do it (2 guys here too) in 6-8 hours. If the system in there now is working and doing it's job why spend the up front money to have a back up that you may not need for years. When you can spend the lesser amount when it needs to be done?
If you have a hard on for installing a mini-split, then put one in your garage. Or look for another situation where one is warranted. I'm a landlord and I don't spend money until I have to. That's not to say my properties are ****, quite the opposite. It's that I fix the little things instead of replace.
 
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CWO4GUNNER

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Aug 17, 2014
Messages
229
Location
BHC AZ
I understand what your trying to say that from purely a component replacement perspective swapping out an outside unit here or cutting a larger attic access to install an A-coil there, it not that difficult. But an entire component rip and change out from R22 to R410a is more than I want to deal with becasue its akin to major knee surgery. While the Mini-split on the other hand is like arthroscopic surgery, a small incision is made, with easy access for whole new system installation or removal with far less trauma to the home and the wallet now and in the future.

More importantly the mini-split will allow the ability for me to slowly ween myself off R22. Slowly becasue Ill have more time get my home or the rental units outside compressor or inside coil replaced (cut, evacuated, braised in, vac, re-charged). The mini-split is not for everyone but for a growing number of tool using humans it is an easy access, simple, lower cost, fast, and a very effective AC/Heat alternative. Remember this isn't the first time we have all witnessed progressive foreign technology work its way from overseas and take over sectors of our traditional home grown markets offered to the consumer. So as a consumer, businessman, and technician, I just cant afford to ignore that. At least not until the mini-split concept falls on its face, and so far with all the positive history Its a fair bet that's not happening any time soon. After installing mini-splits in my own in my home and rentals, maybe I will do as someone posted earlier, make some good use of my HVAC schooling and tools and start my own home-garage business installing and servicing mini-splits starting with my neighbors, men's group, and those that cant afford a traditional system, giving back and helping the community.

Update without self bumping.. Got the word back from the suppliers Iv emailed so far that even though I'm not a HVAC tech with a local public business license, I am nevertheless in the business real-estate landlord which requires no business license, and I am qualified and certified to work on my own units. Anyway the answer has been yes the warranty can be registered and validated under my circumstances. Yahoo! But Iv come to realize that some of these supplier warranty are just a pass-the-buck to the unknown manufacturer in "Who-no-where" China..So I have found out its important that the warranty has US supplier warranty support.
 
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Ohmthis

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Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
3,014
Location
Outside of Louisville KY
I'm not a naysayer or trying to cut down new technology. I think mini-splits are the cats ***..........in certain situations. Just like a conventional split, a packaged system, and hydronic are the best choice in Certain situations. No matter how I paint the picture you'll never step back and look at what is cheapest, less laborous, or BEST. It's frustrating because there are several hvac pros here trying to give sound advice that took years to acquire and your new found certification and some research has turned a deaf ear. Good luck with your endeavors, I'm out of this conversation!!!
 
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