Why run 12/2 from one room then 14/2 from another

[joseywales]

I think I know the answer, but it's agitating me. When this house was built, 25 years ago, they installed a 15 AMP breaker in the 200AMP panel. Into the same 15AMP breaker, there's 12/2 that runs to the master bathroom, then they ran 14/2 to the garage, the garage! Where the homeowner might actually want to run a saw? Where he might want to set up some tools and put in a freezer, since, you know, the 2 car garages were built for Mini Coopers and his truck won't fit?

My guess is that they ran 12/2 to the bathroom because of hair dryers?

The run from the panel to the garage is maybe 30 feet, but I have to drop all the ceiling tiles, attach Romex to the rafters, etc., etc. Lights in there flicker when the garage door opener runs for crying out loud.

End rant

 

[theoldwizard1]

My guess is that they ran 12/2 to the bathroom because of hair dryers?

More likely, that is what they had on hand.

The 15A breaker is typically paired with 14/2 so 12/2 was over kil.

The run from the panel to the garage is maybe 30 feet, but I have to drop all the ceiling tiles, attach Romex to the rafters, etc., etc. Lights in there flicker when the garage door opener runs for crying out loud.

DO IT RIGHT ! 12/2 from the breaker to the last outlet. Then you can change to a 20A breaker, although it sounds like the 15A breaker is doing the job.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is the 12/2 and 14/2 double tapped at the breaker?

 

[joseywales]

Is the 12/2 and 14/2 double tapped at the breaker?

I believe so. One wire on each "side", so not in the same hole, but yes two wires going into the breaker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I believe so. One wire on each "side", so not in the same hole, but yes two wires going into the breaker.

what brand and make of breaker panel do you have?

most breakers are not listed for double tapped lugs

 

[joseywales]

what brand and make of breaker panel do you have?

most breakers are not listed for double tapped lugs

Cutler Hammer I believe. And looking more closely, they appear to be in the same hole

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Cutler Hammer I believe

check the panel label. i dont recall CH breakers being listed for 2 wires...

 

[joseywales]

check the panel label. i dont recall CH breakers being listed for 2 wires...

I have a few spare breakers from the box and the label on those breakers reads Cutler Hammer. Look identical to what is in the box.

I think, at a minimum, I should have this CH breaker instead:
https://www.superbreakers.net/1-pol...MI_srRvpPG6wIVCZSzCh2Wlgf0EAQYASABEgJAr_D_BwE

 

[Jim greengo]

check the panel label. i dont recall CH breakers being listed for 2 wires...

I think only sq d is listed for double tapped breakers.

 

[nadogail]

As a previous poster noted, 12 may be what was on the truck at the time.

IMHO, I see no real problem with feeding a 12 gauge conductor from a 15 amp breaker. It's just a waste of copper.

 

[sberry]

The 2 circuit ones are clamped, not 2 wires under 1 screw.. agree, have seen heavier wire on rework where the guy only carry so much stock.

 

[Terry D]

Can you just install another 20 amp breaker and move the # 12 to that. Keeping the # 14 on the 15 amp

By code, the bathroom receptacle(s) should be a 20 amp circuit anyway

 

[AMFJ]

I hope it's ok, but I want to ride the coattails on something in this thread. I have a Leviton media cabinet that is about 2 feet from my garage subpanel. I wired a 15 GFCI for the media cabinet with 14/2 wire. It has a dedicated 15 amp breaker. The inspector made us change out the 14/2 wire for 12/2. I wasn't there when the inspector looked at it, so I couldn't ask. Any thought on why he would do that? Every other outlet in the garage is wired with 12/2. All lights are wired with 14/2. Maybe he just wanted it to be consistent?

Not a big deal, more of education thing for me.

 

[nsula_country]

15A = 14ga
20A = 12ga
INSPECTOR IS AN IDIOT.

CT

 

[sparky 1971]

I hope it's ok, but I want to ride the coattails on something in this thread. I have a Leviton media cabinet that is about 2 feet from my garage subpanel. I wired a 15 GFCI for the media cabinet with 14/2 wire. It has a dedicated 15 amp breaker. The inspector made us change out the 14/2 wire for 12/2. I wasn't there when the inspector looked at it, so I couldn't ask. Any thought on why he would do that? Every other outlet in the garage is wired with 12/2. All lights are wired with 14/2. Maybe he just wanted it to be consistent?

Not a big deal, more of education thing for me.

Garages are required to have at least one 20 amp receptacle circuit. Situations like this are debatable. If the garage does have the dedicated circuit, can additionally circuits be 15 amp? It's up to the AHJ. I read it as yes, but don't do enough new construction for it to ever be an issue, and have/would never install a 15 amp receptacle circuit in a garage anyway.

 

[AMFJ]

There are numerous 20 amp receptacles in the garage. At least 4 per wall--all 20 amp.

Inspector was weird. I had the lights up (no wiring inside the lights, no bulbs) so that the wire would be ran to the right location. There are 12 4' lights. He asked if I would be drywalling the ceiling, and I said yes. Said he didn't believe me and wouldn't pass the rough in until I took the lights down.

Maybe he was just having a bad day, and wanted to be able to say he found something. I can understand that feeling.

 

[Bopbop]

The 12/2 VS 14/2 was a question I asked the electrician when he was wiring my garage. I wanted 20 amp breakers so I knew I would get 12/2. He said that he does not stock 14/2 on his trucks. He had seen to many times where the home owner changed out a breaker from a 15 to a 20 because they got a bigger tool and was tripping the breaker. He said with the 12 guage wire he did not worry about a call from a lawyer.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

There are numerous 20 amp receptacles in the garage. At least 4 per wall--all 20 amp.

Inspector was weird. I had the lights up (no wiring inside the lights, no bulbs) so that the wire would be ran to the right location. There are 12 4' lights. He asked if I would be drywalling the ceiling, and I said yes. Said he didn't believe me and wouldn't pass the rough in until I took the lights down.

Maybe he was just having a bad day, and wanted to be able to say he found something. I can understand that feeling.

Extremely common issue with inspectors.

I don't understand why they're allowed to make their own judgment on stuff, because all they do is abuse it. Like they are asserting dominance (I very honestly believe this is what many of them are doing). Some of them might just be idiots, however, who were hired perhaps because they knew other people that work for the town or something.

I lived in a town where the inspector wouldn't even look at homeowner work, even though it's legal to do in my state and the town had no bylaw against it. If this were a private business with competition, the guy would be fired for not doing his job, but because it's a government job with no competition, nobody really cares and these inspectors just get to do whatever they want. Nobody else at town hall is going to want to hear a complaint about their coworker.

 

[sparky 1971]

It doesn't matter how many receptacles there are. I believe code requirement is one per parking stall. I think his issue was with the 15 amp receptacle circuit. Since the 20 amp garage circuit went into effect, I have wired only one new house, and it didn't have a garage, so it didn't matter to me. I can remember sitting through a code update class and this was a topic of discussion. I don't remember all of the details, but I do remember the instructor saying there was going to have to be some clarification for the inspectors. Like I stated above, if at least one 20 amp garage circuit is installed, the requirement is met in my book. Anything else should be fair game. Some inspectors look at as "at least one 20 amp circuit in the garage" The at least part tells them that all garage receptacle circuits should be 20 amp. I agree that all garage circuits should be 20 amp, but don't feel the code states that. The code panel had it worded wrong the first time around, nothing but the garage could be on that circuit. Now, it allows outdoor receptacles to be pulled off the garage, the way it has been done for years.

I take back what I stated about not wiring a new house with a garage... I did a duplex when the garage circuit couldn't leave the garage (I believe that was the 2011 code). I knew that, so I took a second 20 amp circuit in the garage, set a gfci, and fed the outside receptacles off of it. Failed the final. Problem was solved by installing a blank face gfci in place of the receptacle. How's that for stupid?

 

[nsula_country]

It doesn't matter how many receptacles there are. I believe code requirement is one per parking stall. I think his issue was with the 15 amp receptacle circuit. Since the 20 amp garage circuit went into effect, I have wired only one new house, and it didn't have a garage, so it didn't matter to me. I can remember sitting through a code update class and this was a topic of discussion. I don't remember all of the details, but I do remember the instructor saying there was going to have to be some clarification for the inspectors. Like I stated above, if at least one 20 amp garage circuit is installed, the requirement is met in my book. Anything else should be fair game. Some inspectors look at as "at least one 20 amp circuit in the garage" The at least part tells them that all garage receptacle circuits should be 20 amp. I agree that all garage circuits should be 20 amp, but don't feel the code states that. The code panel had it worded wrong the first time around, nothing but the garage could be on that circuit. Now, it allows outdoor receptacles to be pulled off the garage, the way it has been done for years.

I take back what I stated about not wiring a new house with a garage... I did a duplex when the garage circuit couldn't leave the garage (I believe that was the 2011 code). I knew that, so I took a second 20 amp circuit in the garage, set a gfci, and fed the outside receptacles off of it. Failed the final. Problem was solved by installing a blank face gfci in place of the receptacle. How's that for stupid?

Inspector stupid...

Brain dead inspector...

CT

 

[Rodango]

People don't like laws, don't like regulations. I'm a people. But I think safe building and upgrade/rehab practices need enforcement. Otherwise people, and that includes me, find it easier/cheaper to take shortcuts. But a rule I would like would be that enforcement of regulations requires a sufficient explanation. That is usually the case, that it's given, that it's part if the job requirement, even part of the code as adopted by the AHJ. But homeowners and professionals alike are often left chasing their tails for a sufficient answer to the question, "why?" It can just be a 'power-trip' or it can be a harried inspector without time for giving details. Pro's just get on with their day, handymen and handywomen are often left with a screwdriver in their hand and a puzzled look in their eyes. I try, as a handyperson, to study enough to be ahead of any questions, and listen carefully. But with code bodies having so much fun making changes...it can be hard to be sure enough