Why we need building permits

[Mike007]

I was installing an AC system when I noticed a live romex with bare conductors sticking out of the wall in the utility room. I also discovered the ground for the condenser was not grounded. When I questioned the H.O., she told me she had the panel replaced by a handyman. He told her she didn't need permits.

The aluminum conductor running across picture 1 is grounding the entire house. The rest is pretty much self explanatory. In the 6th picture I'm reading 71 volts to ground. That because the panel is barely grounded. It never ceases to amaze me what people out there think is perfectly acceptable to do in someones home.

 

[rockwithjason]

"handy men" and "maintenance men" are some of the worst offenders. god all mighty what a pos

 

[rwhite692]

Wow!

A question, do you run into any liability problems, if you just fix parts of it (let's say the homeowner doesn't want to pay to fix all of the obvious problems?)

Unless I could get the job to fix the WHOLE thing, I wouldn't touch that job....

 

[Mike007]

Wow!

A question, do you run into any liability problems, if you just fix parts of it (let's say the homeowner doesn't want to pay to fix all of the obvious problems?)

Unless I could get the job to fix the WHOLE thing, I wouldn't touch that job....

I'm not a licensed electrician, I'm an HVAC contractor. So I can't touch it. I spoke with the woman and she didn't want to get it fixed. I told her it was unlikely my job would be inspected without it being noticed by the inspectors that she had a new panel installed without a permit, which could result in a $2000 fine. In the end, my electrician pulled the permit and fixed it for $450. Which I think was a rather generous price.

 

[rickairmedic]

The realy sad part is ( when ) her house burns down if her homeowners get ahold of that panel she will be SOL. I see alot of skeery stuff while doing HVAC here as well. I put in my new panel and rewired most of my house However I also had my master electrician buddy doublecheck my work and pull the permits.


Rick

 

[green.bubbly]

What in the hell is wrong with people? I am far from being an electrician and I would know better than doing that kind of crappy work.

 

[tony4311]

Made me think of this video I saw today.
http://www.break.com/cue-the-cuervo/worst-automatic-garage-door-opener-installation-ever-2020629

 

[Mike007]

In picture 1, you can see why the AC was not grounded. If you look at the romex coming off the 30 amp breaker, there is no ground. He cut if off for some reason.

 

[MrMark]

what are you connecting to with that meter. It's hard to see in the pics. It looks like one end is on the neutral buss bar.

If you were reading 71 volts between a phase leg and ground nothing would be working so I doubt that is what you were measuring.

Is this the main panel? Is that ground bar bonded to the neutral buss? It almost looks like you are touching neutral buss to an unused ground bar.

 

[Mike007]

what are you connecting to with that meter. It's hard to see in the pics. It looks like one end is on the neutral buss bar.

If you were reading 71 volts between a phase leg and ground nothing would be working so I doubt that is what you were measuring.

Thats from one hot leg to the ground buss, which he didn't bother using for some reason. So the panel is basically ungrounded.

 

[Rentawrench]

Some States are trying.

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/massachusetts/Unlicensed-electricians-nabbed-in-sting

 

[cowboyjosh]

Holy ****!!! Really?

Even a dumb f*&k "handman" aught to know if it looks wrong, it probably is wrong, and that panel is garbage. It was a sin for that "handyman" to accept payment for that workmanship.

 

[MrMark]

Thats from one hot leg to the ground buss, which he didn't bother using for some reason. So the panel is basically ungrounded.

If that enclosure is ungrounded it should read 0 or very close to 0. What you read would seem unlikely.

 

[Mike007]

If that enclosure is ungrounded it should read 0 or very close to 0. What you read would seem unlikely.

Its not 100% ungrounded. If it was obviously it would have read 120. In picture 3 it looks like a ground conductor is touching one of the KO's. Maybe thats the path to ground? It is the only panel in the home, but it is a subpanel. The main is located outside in a disconnect so the common buss is insulated from the panel. (I believe).

 

[electrican]

a handy man is good for painting and sheet-rock, not a panel change. i have done lots of panel changes with out a permit and done it right!

 

[Mike007]

a handy man is good for painting and sheet-rock, not a panel change. i have done lots of panel changes with out a permit and done it right!

I'm sure that is true. But how does a clueless H.O. know the difference between you and the guy who installed this panel? I have a lot of aggravation with inspectors and the whole permit process, but I also see a lot of really bad work, and the H.O. doesn't even know how bad it is. A permit would have saved them a lot of grief. I had a service call for no heat last week. The furnace was relatively new and the installer would not call her back. When I got there I found a furnace installed with the front panel 4" off a wall. There was no way to service it. Nothing on the job was done right. I wish I took a picture of it. She said the installer told her it would save her some money if she didn't get a permit. I quoted her to pull the permits, rip everything out including the AC condenser, and reinstall everything with new ductwork for $3000. A permit would have cost her $300. There is no way the job would have passed. If the installer didn't make it right, the Building Department could fine him and he wouldn't have received his final payment. So as much as I hate dealing with permits, for unknowing homeowners they really can protect them.

 

[tdkkart]

Holy ****!!! Really?

Even a dumb f*&k "handman" aught to know if it looks wrong, it probably is wrong, and that panel is garbage. It was a sin for that "handyman" to accept payment for that workmanship.

The really dumb part is that this was a replacement panel, which means there was one there before, which we can reasonably assume was done right.

So, if you're a ******* handyman that has presumably never done a panel before, would you not look at the old one to see how it was done before you rip it out?? Do you not assume that you should put in the new one with something close to the same workmanship??

But really, no box connecters in the knockouts?? Come on, have you never seen a panel or junction box before?? Was their "handyman" their 15yo son??

 

[tdkkart]

Some States are trying.

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/massachusetts/Unlicensed-electricians-nabbed-in-sting

Who would be stupid enough to advertise electrical services without a license?? I know a couple guys that have made a pretty decent living for many years doing electrical, plumbing, and concrete work with almost no advertising, word of mouth only.

But only a $1000 fine?? They probably already had another $1000 worth of business lined up for that day.

 

[DRP6833]

Along this line...

Years ago I was replacing kitchen cabinets in our home. When I removed the over-the-stove microwave, I discovered that whoever installed it had simple dropped some romex from the overhead light, connected it to a 2-gang wall outlet, plugged in the microwave, wrapped the whole thing with black electrical tape and stuffed it back into the wall! As soon as I saw it, I froze in my tracks and had my wife go and trip the main breaker.

Needless to say, it wasn't re-installed that way.

 

[SuperSocket]

They should arrest installers like these. Canada is pushing new laws where inspectors can come after installers even years later and sue the pants off them and/or push criminal charges even if no injuries occurred.

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

"handy men" and "maintenance men" are some of the worst offenders. god all mighty what a pos

Hey, I resemble that remark.... Truth be known, when I get done changing out a panel, it usually looks better than if an IBEW journeyman did,... I just dont get paid as well, and dont cut a check to the union ! and no, Im not an electrician, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I caught an episode of Holmes on Homes the other night, he pulled the face off a panel, and there was 1 knockout still on the panel face, and there was a breaker under it ! Thats was just for starters, that house must have been a $200k fix, they gutted EVERYTHING, starting over would have probably been quicker and cheaper...

 

[Possum]

I have a fun microwave outlet story too.....
The original power to my microwave in my old house went like this;
30 amp breaker -> 12-2NM -> Furnace 120V blower and control -> 12-2NM -> pigtailed in a handy box w/ ground disconnected ->12-2NM -> duplex outlet -> 12-2 -> light switch to exterior light (light ran with cloth wrapped wire) -> 12-2 -> duplex outlet -> 12-2 -> duplex outlet behind cabinets (dishwasher plugged in here) -> 12-2 -> another duplex outlet inside bottom cabinet -> 2 conductor lamp cord (yes 18 gauge) plugged into previous outlet routed behind sheetrock -> wired into a duplex outlet mounted above the countertops -> 6 outlet adapter on that outlet -> and finally the toaster and microwave plugged in there.

Along this line...

Years ago I was replacing kitchen cabinets in our home. When I removed the over-the-stove microwave, I discovered that whoever installed it had simple dropped some romex from the overhead light, connected it to a 2-gang wall outlet, plugged in the microwave, wrapped the whole thing with black electrical tape and stuffed it back into the wall! As soon as I saw it, I froze in my tracks and had my wife go and trip the main breaker.

Needless to say, it wasn't re-installed that way.

 

[dangle]

I have a fun microwave outlet story too.....
The original power to my microwave in my old house went like this;
30 amp breaker -> 12-2NM -> Furnace 120V blower and control -> 12-2NM -> pigtailed in a handy box w/ ground disconnected ->12-2NM -> duplex outlet -> 12-2 -> light switch to exterior light (light ran with cloth wrapped wire) -> 12-2 -> duplex outlet -> 12-2 -> duplex outlet behind cabinets (dishwasher plugged in here) -> 12-2 -> another duplex outlet inside bottom cabinet -> 2 conductor lamp cord (yes 18 gauge) plugged into previous outlet routed behind sheetrock -> wired into a duplex outlet mounted above the countertops -> 6 outlet adapter on that outlet -> and finally the toaster and microwave plugged in there.

Did your microwave even turn on without tripping the breaker?!? That is also a serious fire hazard with the #18 wire on a 30 amp breaker... #14 is minimum @ 15 amps I believe.

 

[MartyO]

 

[cowboyjosh]

Hey, I resemble that remark.... Truth be known, when I get done changing out a panel, it usually looks better than if an IBEW journeyman did,... I just dont get paid as well, and dont cut a check to the union ! and no, Im not an electrician, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I caught an episode of Holmes on Homes the other night, he pulled the face off a panel, and there was 1 knockout still on the panel face, and there was a breaker under it ! Thats was just for starters, that house must have been a $200k fix, they gutted EVERYTHING, starting over would have probably been quicker and cheaper...

Yeah, i saw that Holmes on Homes as well, actually its a 2 part show and about a 300k fix, the second show is Sunday night. I reckon why Holmes didnt tear own that old house is because of zoning restrictions. I couldnt believe all the illegal junction points in that Holmes house.

 

[walrus]

Yeah, i saw that Holmes on Homes as well, actually its a 2 part show and about a 300k fix, the second show is Sunday night. I reckon why Holmes didnt tear own that old house is because of zoning restrictions. I couldnt believe all the illegal junction points in that Holmes house.

I liked the part where the Electrician said the breaker wouldn't trip, maybe Mike should find electricians with a clue

 

[yevangelis]

lol 1000$ fine in Mass. ? i think its a bigger violation to put an autozone muffler tip on your van

 

[DHS]

They are a double edge sword. Around where I live they require permits to replace a door, gutters, fascia boards... I think it is rotten that a homeowner has to jump threw all the hoops, and pay out some serious coin. A permit should not cost more than the materials to do the job. I would rather have to permits required if work is done by the homeowner. Now that jack of all trades handyman making money doing the job should have his work inspected because he is more likely to do short cuts.

 

[mikeyr]

permits don't fix everything.

2 years ago I hired a total idiot (he was a licensed, union member and insured however) to rewire my house and put a sub in the garage, he did the work AND the city inspector signed off on it. Last year I did more electrical work and my new electrician said most of the old work was either unsafe or would not meet code. This time instead of trusting the new guy, I did some research on line and had the city come out for another inspection, the new inspector said "no way this work was signed off" and actually threatened to fine me for unsafe and un-permitted work. I had enough paper work to convince him that it was signed off by the previous inspector and I had it all fixed.

So permits and inspections merely give you a good chance that its done right, not a guarantee.

 

[FThera]

Wtf!

 

[Redhogz]

I bought and then tore down a house built in 1956. It was wired by an airplane electrician. We found lots of fun, scary, things. Three really stand out other than the fact that not 1 wire nut was used anywhere. everything was twisted and taped.

The first was a ceiling fan, in 20 feet he used romex, lamp cord and THHN.

Number two was the dish washer, we couldn't find a breaker to disconnect it so my buddy put the two leads together to blow the breaker. It finally unwelded the connector contact inside. Never did find out where the wire was fed from.

Third was a round ceiling box. I counted 27 conductors, 5 extra drilled in holes, no cover. All twisted and taped. He did think to isolate it from the surrounding floor joists with tinfoil and stainless steel. I think in case it caught fire.

I cut out the box and saved it for my inspector. My electrical inspectors have been the by far the best to work with.

 

[bushpilot]

WOW !

gotta love the length of bare wire attached to the circuit breaker !

and that GROUND wrapped around the other is just TOO MUCH...i mean seriously how much
does a little more copper cost...or god forbid a WIRE NUT

 

[larry_g]

permits don't fix everything.


So permits and inspections merely give you a good chance that its done right, not a guarantee.

Within the last three years I've put in shop, manufactured home, new well and septic. All permitted and I did a lot of the work myself. I installed a 400a meterbase/panel to power the place. The panel I selected had 2 200a breakers and places for 8 or 10 small breakers. I used one of the small breaker slots to put power on the pole to have construction power, and usen a second one to run a circuit to the pump house. Well I was down the the final inspection and the permit for the pump house had never been signed off. So I called for that inspection as well as the final. The inspector showed up in slippers. As he got out of the rig I ask if he had his boots, No was the answer. So he looked through the house and the shop and ok'ed that and asked what this last electrical was for. I pointed out the pump house across 20' of muddy ground. He asked if it was done correctly. I said it was so he signed it off. I think I did it correctly but who knows.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Lugnut64052]

2 conductor lamp cord (yes 18 gauge) plugged into previous outlet routed behind sheetrock

Shoot, I've seen that more than once. I re-hab houses for a living; mostly '50s era through about '70s era houses, some which have had extensive ham-fisted, ghastly "remodel" work done to them. Pretty soon you just take it in stride, fix it right, and move on to the next eye-popping "remodel" exhibit.

 

[warrenw]

I have been an Electrician since 1986, and I have seen worse. People who don't to pull permits, are cutting corners, period. If you have nothing to hide, pull a permit.

 

[DoyleDee]

Not all handymen/ maintenece...... I am a maintnece worker (I work in commercial buildings though).. and I have done electrical. I have wired houses and panels and passes by inspections...so not all are bad. Some people should not be anywhere near electrical panels - dead or live-- and they seem to give the rest of us a bad name.. not to say I'm perfect- I AM NOT... I have just been tought to do the job right and take ownership in the work you do.. I am very **** about what I do.. I try to be the perfectionist my father wanted me to be.

 

[bczygan]

Where I live, my MIL's house, we have a 60A fused panel. 2 30A mains. one main socket burned out so a handyman taped in 2 15A fuse holders and stuffed them behind the cover. Also one fuse receptacle eats fuses so we use slo blow resettable ones. It snaps, crackles and fizzes and eats them too after a while. I'd really like a nice 200A breaker panel.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have an early 50s 100A fuse box. All of the screw in fuses have been replaced by screw in push button breakers.

Funny, I haven't tripped a breaker since I got rid of those window A/C units about 8 years ago !

 

[benzama123]

I have just been tought to do the job right and take ownership in the work you do.. I am very **** about what I do.

 

[larry_g]

I have been an Electrician since 1986, and I have seen worse. People who don't to pull permits, are cutting corners, period. If you have nothing to hide, pull a permit.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I'm not about to pull a permit every time I mess with some electrical circuit. See my post above where the inspector couldn't be bothered to get his shoes dirty. I've been in the electrical field for a few more years than you have, starting in the military in 1972. Spent my career in the electro-mechanical field working in industry, never had a license. I have worked with a lot great electricians and a few that had no business in the field. The blanket statement that you infer about all homeowners being hacks is just wrong.

Lg
No neat sig line