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Why we need building permits

nate379

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Was that the one that they gutted the WHOLE house pretty much cause NOTHING was right?

The upstairs floor had dropped like 3.5", but the homeowner didn't see that on a home inspection and never didn't notice until a contractor said something? :lol_hitti


I caught an episode of Holmes on Homes the other night, he pulled the face off a panel, and there was 1 knockout still on the panel face, and there was a breaker under it ! Thats was just for starters, that house must have been a $200k fix, they gutted EVERYTHING, starting over would have probably been quicker and cheaper...
 
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DHS

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I have been an Electrician since 1986, and I have seen worse. People who don't to pull permits, are cutting corners, period. If you have nothing to hide, pull a permit.

I sure you are right a lot of the times but not always. People do work without permits to put have to pay for the permits, which can cost as much as the material to do the job.
 

cowboyjosh

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Was that the one that they gutted the WHOLE house pretty much cause NOTHING was right?

The upstairs floor had dropped like 3.5", but the homeowner didn't see that on a home inspection and never didn't notice until a contractor said something? :lol_hitti

Yup that would be the episode(s). Really, ya'll have the cable up in Ak?:lol:
 

Toolhorder

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Looked into buying this house but I just saw too many corners that were cut. This took the cake. You can't get to the breakers in the panel. That couldn't be legal.

View media item 8309

That water heater pressure valve has no drain to the floor or out of the dwelling. It just opens and blows right in front of the water heater. Illegal where I'm at.
Also I don't see any holding straps either. Also illegal here.
 

nissan_crawler

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Eh, I don't buy the permit thing, sorry.

I had a master electrician and plumber work in my house before I moved in, and permits were pulled, and bought off.

Three years later, I spent about $4,000 redoing all of their god awful, half assed work. Oh, that included having a 120 volt gas line due to a double dose of some of their botched pieces of work ending up in the same spot. (Water line with screw through it leaking down onto a wire nutted connection in the wall with no box (that was done solely to splice the two lengths of wire together, no other connection), that then ran onto the gas line.)

Other fine pieces included copper joints corroding after three years due to wrong solder (I'm assuming), rusted off pipes in the slab "fixed" by surrounding it with plumbers putty, 14 gauge wire on 20 amp circuits. No grounds on the light switches or outlets in the bathrooms or kitchens... I could go on.

I called the city to inform them of these atrocities (and show them pictures), and all they said was that I must have illegally modified it after their inspector looked at it, and now I would need to come buy new permits to fix all the work that "I had illegally modified".

I'll let you guess whether or not permits were paid for the second time. It is fixed properly now, though.
 

Busted_Knuckles

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Yeah, you know I should stick my head back in here, up till the collapse of the economy, I was working as a Superintendent for a up-scale commercial contractor doing higher-end retail (we where never the low bid...).

For those who don't know what a Superintendent does, I represent the General Contractor, on the job site, part of that job is getting the permits, calling for inspections, and getting the final and the occupancy permit. So suffice it to say, Ive worked with some inspectors....

Anyhow, I dealt with inspectors from coast to coast. Mostly the west coast. Building chain stores, I rarely dealt with the same inspector twice (as far as different jobs). So Ive met more than my fair share of these clowns.

I have had many negative experiences, and one positive experience (that I remember anyway). I had one that I had to get the mayor involved with, it spiraled so far into the stratosphere. I have found that the job seems to attract those males that have a need to "control" others, not that they give to shits about safety or the actual work. I have had to get the state electrical inspector involved because a local inspector had "his ways" and would not sign on off the job, even though it CLEARLY met code, and said inspector could not and would not show me how it didn't, he just didn't like the elevation of a panel.

Ive also seen revenue rackets with local munis. I was given "verbal" ok to occupy and open store, only to be fined $250 a day until the occupancy permit was actually provided (no, they didnt tell me they where going to fine me evey day the store was open after he told me it was "ok, go ahead".

The only positive experience Ive had was in Portland, OR, they sub-contract there inspection process on commercial projects. Smoothest job Ive ever done. Yes, they sub contract the whole process, and its funny, the inspectors are NOT on a power trip,.... and actually looked at what we where doing and worked with me on process and schedule, it was almost "twilight zone-ish". Who knew the private sector could do it better than government, things that make you go hmmm.

Ive also had more "drive by" inspections than I can remember. Thats where the inspector really doesnt have time to "come by" and do the inspection himself, so they will ask you on the phone, "if everything is "right", then go ahead and close it up, I will sign off next time Im there". Now what they are actually out doing, that they cant make it to do the inspection I dont know, you can let you imagination wander with that one.

I should also note, the GC I worked for, only contracted with WELL established union shops, no corners where ever cut on anything, it was top shelf and on time, that was what we sold. If you wanted it done right and on time, you hired us, and we where busy.

So when I'm doing anything myself, which Ive always got something going on, I dont ever pull a permit. I dont need a moronathon going on, not on my time and dime. I dont mind managing it on someone else's dime, but not on mine.

So after my own experiences, and being half way through my adult life, looking back, Im going to wager that the inspectors themselves have created an enviroment that helps to foster the lack of permits being pulled. Yeah, Ive taken hacked work apart, I get it, just thought I should point out that the solution is part of the problem, which is probably not "news" for anyone that builds anything.
 

Busted_Knuckles

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Was that the one that they gutted the WHOLE house pretty much cause NOTHING was right?

The upstairs floor had dropped like 3.5", but the homeowner didn't see that on a home inspection and never didn't notice until a contractor said something? :lol_hitti

Yes, same episode, extensive settling, the inspector saw nothing unusual, I was thinking "damn shame, that was a nice looking contemporary before they started, not its to the studs!"
 

ishiboo

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Looked into buying this house but I just saw too many corners that were cut. This took the cake. You can't get to the breakers in the panel. That couldn't be legal.

Yeah... LOTS of things wrong with that picture :) Couple water issues as well, and it's probably PVC (not CPVC) on the hot water too, hard to tell as everything looks yellowed.
 

Buckgnarly

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My neighbor, a builder from CT built his whole house up here with only a septic permit from the state. No permits required in my town, and that's the way I like it. He was blown away at how there are no "hands out" waiting for payment of permits and time wasted waiting on inspectors.

Should I feel sorry for the stupid people who get ripped off, I guess so....but that's why they are stupid!:thumbup: I don't need government and regulations to save me. If you don't know what you are looking at or doing, find someone who does.
 

tdkkart

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Looked into buying this house but I just saw too many corners that were cut. This took the cake. You can't get to the breakers in the panel. That couldn't be legal.

View media item 8309


This is a perfect example, of "really, you can't see that this is wrong".

Maybe what we should have is just a stupidity inspector. Somebody that comes to the jobsite, glances at the job from 75ft with one eye closed, and if they recognize anything that looks stupid they smack the permitted person upside the head and leave. Each time they have to come back costs $100 till the stupid person wises up.
 

MoonRise

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Yes, same episode, extensive settling, the inspector saw nothing unusual, I was thinking "damn shame, that was a nice looking contemporary before they started, not its to the studs!"

Happened to see those two episodes of "Holmes Inspection" too.

Supposedly the original house inspector's report went along the lines of 'A bit of sagging on some doors and floors, but it's an older house so that's OK, eh'. (it's a Canadian show, eh :lol_hitti )

:headscrat

They ended up gutting almost everything in the house and stripped it back to bare studs on the first floor. On the basement, they ended up building pretty much NEW basement/foundation walls -inside- the old existing inadequate and crumbling brick foundation walls. Once they had some footings and foundation that they could build upon, then they put in beams and posts to support the first floor. Then they could put in beams and posts on the first floor to actually support the second floor. While trying to relevel and jack up the second floor.

There were also mold problems (water through the collapsing brick 'foundation' walls), asbestos issues (insulation and fibers within the drywall/spackling), plumbing issues (drain lines that sloped UP!), electrical issues, structural issues (collapsing foundation, the removed structural walls that -used- to be on the first floor that actually held up the second floor, and other structural problems), the former front porch that was just closed in with no adequate structure underneath it, etc, etc, etc.

In Episode #1 of that segment, Mike mentioned that it would be faster, easier, and less expensive to completely demolish the old house and replace it all from the footings on upward. But they just kept find more and more things wrong, and they also couldn't really get the big equipment in because of the tight adjacent houses on both sides and -their- foundations.

Listed as Episodes #21 and #22 of Season 1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_Inspection

re: inspectors and building permits. Sometimes inspectors are helpful and knowledgable, sometimes they are petty bureacrats on a power trip. Sometimes permits help to ensure 'standards' and 'codes', sometimes they are a PIA and have devolved into just yet another tax/fee from yet another Gubmint entity (like in Cali, where some areas insist that a 'permit' is needed in order to repaint an interior room of your house a different color) with cursory 'inspection' if at all.
 
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Mike007

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Should I feel sorry for the stupid people who get ripped off, I guess so....but that's why they are stupid!:thumbup: I don't need government and regulations to save me. If you don't know what you are looking at or doing, find someone who does.

Should we feel sorry for you if you buy a home where the previous owner wired the entire house with lamp wire? And then it burns down? There would be no way to see the work, does that make you stupid? Regardless of the inspection, the woman who had the electrical panel installed in my original post would have been saved if she insisted on a permit. Since the handyman doesn't have an electrical license, he could not get the permit and would have to pass on the job. The system is far from perfect where I work. Quite franky its a major PIA. I pull permits for a few reasons. 1) It would be hypocritical of me to be pro-permit and then not pull them myself because I believe I know what I'm doing. Maybe I don't. :dunno: 2) If anything happens and there is a fire or some kind of loss, my insurance can deny coverage if I don't have a permit. 3) Around here they are really cracking down. Especially since the economy has slowed. People get caught regularly working without permits and I have enough aggravation.
 

Frank The Plumber

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Let us take the problem to it's root cause.
The general public has an overall disrespect for the professional installer. This is due to the FACT that just about any dill donk can make this claim. Thus washing the value of the term professional from ones status.
How are YOU to know the qualifications of the "professional" who is professing to be such to you?
Here is an example of a self profession, "I **** golden turds". I have professed this. Is it true?
Here's another example of a professional claim. "Ya I do for you, Ya Ya I do cheeper, Ya.
Here's another. "I am a licensed plumbing contractor of 30 years, I have a city license, a business license, I am a state certified contractor, city certified contractor, I am a certified back flow inspector with the state, I have liability insurance covering a 2 million dollar aggregate, I am bonded with all jurisdictions in which I perform, my vehicle is fully lettered I am in full uniform. I can produce any required documentation to validate any and all of these claims, I have copies in my service support package."

I am willing to be tested annually, I am willing to pay for any and all required training and do, to keep my abilities current, I do not feel the public should pay for my licensing through taxation upon the public.
By implementing programs in which the qualified individual is again respected by the public it would make it both foolish to use and difficult to quantify the use of the dill donk.
In the end the licensed qualified installer is a better value. You only do it once and YOU don't die in a fire.
 

nate379

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Funny you say that because they ran cable out to here just a few months ago. When I moved to this place ~3 years ago there was just power and that's it. Not even cell phone coverage.


Yup that would be the episode(s). Really, ya'll have the cable up in Ak?:lol:
 

Buckgnarly

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Should we feel sorry for you if you buy a home where the previous owner wired the entire house with lamp wire? And then it burns down? There would be no way to see the work, does that make you stupid? Regardless of the inspection, the woman who had the electrical panel installed in my original post would have been saved if she insisted on a permit. Since the handyman doesn't have an electrical license, he could not get the permit and would have to pass on the job. The system is far from perfect where I work. Quite franky its a major PIA. I pull permits for a few reasons. 1) It would be hypocritical of me to be pro-permit and then not pull them myself because I believe I know what I'm doing. Maybe I don't. :dunno: 2) If anything happens and there is a fire or some kind of loss, my insurance can deny coverage if I don't have a permit. 3) Around here they are really cracking down. Especially since the economy has slowed. People get caught regularly working without permits and I have enough aggravation.

I absolutely agree that in order to do the work and charge someone as a pro you should have some sort of certification, but I should not have to pay to be able to work on my own stuff.

I can see your point on the house wiring, but if the owner could not produce the people or proof of his own work I would pass on the house.

We had an inspection done by a licensed inspector, no way I would do that myself because I do not know enough to trust myself.

It's good for the masses, I just can't see pulling a permit to add an outlet in my garage....I like having the ability to make dumb decisions I guess...:lol_hitti
 

rieferman

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Frank wrote:
By implementing programs in which the qualified individual is again respected by the public it would make it both foolish to use and difficult to quantify the use of the dill donk.

That's a great point. It's so easy for anyone to market their services as a "pro". And much of the population has no ability to discern pro from not pro. My mother in law is a very smart woman, but she's a 70 year old widow and was a Spanish teacher for 30 years - why on earth would she be able to see through a slick-talking "pro's" pitch? Or, how would she recognize good work from bad (except the obvious cases)?

When a home owner gets screwed over by a "pro", what happens to that guy? Nothing really. There's a kazillion hoops the owner could try jumping through to "make it right" but in most cases, the crook has the odds stacked in his favor.

That being the case, and we talked about this in another thread recently, many just go on price when choosing a "pro" to work for them. It's seemingly a crapshoot anyways, so might as well save a buck right?

Considering that anyone can market themselves as a pro, since there's no penalty system for bad work, and since many inspectors are seemingly clueless or careless, what's the point of the permit system anyways? cha ching
 

Frank The Plumber

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The point is that there are certain bell ringing things that qualify a professional from a non professional. Licensing, insurance, bonding, appearance, attitude, cleanliness.
If a professional plumber comes to your home, shows you his license, is referred by a close friend, is of proper appearance, provides proof of insurance, offers home protection in the form of shoe booties and service mats, cleans the work area and charges a rate of $75 per hour which includes the operating expenses associated to the business, does a fine and professional job, it is all of the mentioned items which quantify the fee per hour which is billed. In almost every case a contractor who cares about his customers regards them as friends whom he would like to keep, whom he sends Christmas cards to, whom he greets happily as he enters their home. He is respectful friendly and caring. That is the ethos of any good business formula, you must be that service provider, you must connect to the client, you must care about the client and wish to befriend them and all of their friends and family. It is required, you must embrace this and enjoy it without a feeling of burden.
If you as a customer are not feeling respected, are not being provided with a form of certified integrity, your home is not being protected, the service provider is non communicative or crass, how can you hope to be receiving a valued product from them. A service person should justify on every occasion just exactly what he is providing to you without hesitation. He should never leave you with a feeling of lost or poor investment in his services. A good service person will feel your concern and will care enough to justify your feelings with good and solid results.
If a non qualified person comes to your home and quotes you a lower price, how is he justified in his quotation? If he does not have a license, might it concern you as to why? If he is a smelly sloppy dirty person, do you think he is proud? Will he exhibit pride upon the work he does in your home? Does he keep your home clean? Does his eye drift towards your wife's bottom disrespectfully and constantly? Is he punctual? Is he prepared? Do his prices magically float upwards? Does he stare at your home electronics?
Look at it as if you were buying something very visibly tangible, meat for instance. A good red, fresh piece of steak is easily discernible from one that sat out in the parking lot for four weeks rotting, but only if you are educated of it. If you are educated of it the difference between a pro and non pro are just as easy to see.
Sadly, the pulling of a permit and it's associated fee has in many places simply become a source of revenue. Leaving you alone to determine the worth of that piece of meat.
 

rickairmedic

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I agree with Frank completely . I have in my workbook with me at all times .

1. A copy of my Masters license for the current year for my state .

2. A copy of my Journeymans license for the current year for my state . I am required by the state to keep up my Journeymans license in order to work in the state even though I have a masters license as well with the state :D.

3. A copy of my insuarance certiificate for my company.


I would be more than happy to show all of these to any homeowner who asked at any time . I have only honestly been asked by one homeowner that I can remember although I make it a point to let homeowners know they should ask for all of these things .


Rick
 

tdkkart

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One of the big problems is those so-called professionals, both trades people and especially inspectors that have this idea in their head that if a person does not have a license they cannot possibly do the job correctly. Especially bad are those inpsectors that think that if you dont have a license issued BY THEIR DEPARTMENT that you cannot possibly do anything right.

There was a big ruckus around here a couple years ago when the state, rather than local jurisdictions, started licensing electricans. The way the law is written, the state license now trumps all local licenses, meaning that the local licenses were essentially toilet paper. It got real interesting when a couple cities sent out letters saying "your license has expired, please come in at your earliest convenience to pay us our yearly bribe money or you cannot do business in our city."
Things got pissy for awhile till the state explained the situation to the locals, who had already realized they were gonna lose alot of license money.
There were also those that had been essentially handed their city licenses for years, and now had a hell of a time staying in business because they couldn't pass the state tests.
 
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R6 Racer

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One of the problems with the permit situation here is that with every permit pulled there is a corresponding hike in ones home owner taxes!
The local municipality uses permits to justify an "improvement" to your home & raise your taxes.
That is one of the big reasons that permits are not always pulled. I am not an electrician but have done electrical work on all of my previous homes. Before I close up anything I have my cousin who is a master electrician come & look it all over.

Steve
 

Frank The Plumber

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The way it works here is: If you do not have a license your insurance may be void. If you do not have a license you are not able to bond. If you do a professional service for a living you should be proud to be able to obtain a license and be legal. You should also be happy that non professionals will not be able to perform your work. If the only difference between being a professional or a non professional is a test and an annual certificate fee that is fine. Pass the test, pay the fee and quantify your value to the customer. Now this does not apply to a DIY guy, if you do your own ****, hey god bless you. But you also are not out there selling yourself as a pro. Our state took over the licensing and bonding task, every jurisdiction used to require a $100 dollar 20 grand bond to work, each little burb at a hondo a copy, what a PIA, the state bond now over covers most of these burbs. But now they bop you with a business license fee. Sneaky little burbs.
 

rickairmedic

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LOL same here Frank . I have to have a business license in every little county I go into here in order to work there even with my " State " licnses .


Rick
 

MrMark

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My experience is that permits don't really help the home owner to get a better job especially with electrical. Too much is buried, especially during remodel and the inspections are too cursory with the inspector often not having very much detailed knowledge. I just don't think the inspectors have the skill to make a difference.
 

Frank The Plumber

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In my experience they are only interested in keeping the municipality from liable. They want to be certain someone other than the jurisdiction is holding the stinky diaper. I think in many places they are feeling that they may be walking a fine line towards the voter legislating them out of existence.
Bear with me Mark, I do Ok for a slightly vision impaired one finger typing public inner city schooled plumber. No? Although my wife has scolded me as well. It's the passion. HaHa.
 

MrMark

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Yes, you do very well Frank, just break it up with some returns. It makes it easier on the eyes and more people will read your posts. Sometimes when I see a long post with no paragraphing I just skip it.
 
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Here in n.z we pay rates...aka;property taxes.
It works like this...a plain unpainted dog kennel cost so much to bild, a painted carpeted dog kennel cost so much.

So when sum1 requires a bilding permit which may be compulsary u have to submit costs of land and project.(if a next door bilt a mansion for 100 grand, and u say that u want the same but u can bild it for "ten dollars" b-coz u got the same materials b-4 prices went up....the council will not accept it they will say that all the neighbors or equal size home cannot be bilt lessor cost hence u will be pulled in2 line).

Re the above sceanario, local govt hav to value based on your properties max worth so they can use u the ratepayer as colateral so they can borrow monies for council project, or even if a councillor had a m8t that had land to turn in2 a sub division they will fund it using your money.

So google up the term....."window tax" or taxes...thats what property taxes is based on.

Add.. Fractional reserve banking into the mix.....we are "phucked!"
 

nissan_crawler

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In the end the licensed qualified installer is a better value. You only do it once and YOU don't die in a fire.

That might be true in some cases, but definitely not all. Read mine, two masters, both hacked up work badly.

Well, I guess you're right in a way, they did it (wrong). Then I did it once (right).
 
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Mike007

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That might be true in some cases, but definitely not all. Read mine, two masters, both hacked up work badly.

Well, I guess you're right in a way, they did it (wrong). Then I did it once (right).

Theres some people who will never be good in anything they do because they don't care. They are hacks. They can be electricians, plumbers, inspectors or anything else. Then there are people who will take pride in any job they do. I guess it's the luck of the draw. I think your best odds of getting a good job is still with the licensed pro.
 

rieferman

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My point earlier wasn't that I think true professionals aren't worth the money, or that the original intent of permit process isn't a good intent. My point was that since (as nissan crawler points out in his example) hacks and crooks can be just as "credentialed" as a true professional (i.e. how can you actually find a good pro?), since the inspectors either don't care or can't see many issues hidden behind walls, and since there's no penalty for bad work... the system seems stacked to cause the home owner to pay one way or the other.
 

nissan_crawler

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Theres some people who will never be good in anything they do because they don't care. They are hacks. They can be electricians, plumbers, inspectors or anything else. Then there are people who will take pride in any job they do. I guess it's the luck of the draw. I think your best odds of getting a good job is still with the licensed pro.

I fully agree. Odds are, a licensed pro will be better. It's certainly not a guarantee though, as some others make it out to be.
 

slimpickins

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Holy sh*t thats a fire about to happen. I've seen my share of sh*t like this. When I bought my first house, the basement was wired with a mixture of copper and aluminum screwed together under the terminal on the side of a duplex outlet.

Electrical is not the only system that has handyman problems. See attached photos for a plumbing masterpiece! You have to see this to believe it! The first photo shows the back side of a shower valve in a bathroom. I found this when I opened the wall to find out why the basement ceiling was wet. The tin foil was apparently placed to direct a micro pin-hole leak in the solder joint, to another piece of tin foil at the bottom of the wall, which directed the water onto the top of the gyproc in the basement ceiling, where they had placed a piece of plastic to direct the water into a basement shower stall. Note all the water damage.

Notice also the "rigid" copper pipe that has been kinked with pliers and bent to go into the side of the shower valve.

The third picture is the same house after I demolished the bathroom in the basement because of the water damage from upstairs. This shows the wonderful plumbing system that was hidden behind an insulated wall in the basement - Note the strings holding the pipes up! This bathroom was built with a permit - I checked the title abstract when I bought the place. There's no protection in permits that I have seen!
 

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56nash

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Location
Sandy, Utah
Permits and inspections just give more of a chance that things will be done right. I worked a landscape job on a local Parade of Homes project when in college. Our job was to install a pond and waterfall and 45 foot stream. I was on the jobsite daily for a period of 2 weeks, during which the house went from mechanicals going in to finished. I saw an engineered deck bracket that was to hod up a horizontal timber support for a deck get left off before the stucco crew did there thing and the bracket was discarded. That timber was held in place with maybe 3 16d nails. I asked the builder and he said I was mistaken and the bracket I had seen laying on the pad under the deck disappeared in minutes. The leach field for a septic system was to have at least 80 feet of laterals installed overnight and the piping and gravel was on site to install, this was two days before opening of the show, I arrived the next morning expecting the excavator to have caused us problems with our pond being that it was maybe 10 feet from the end of one of the laterals marked out the night before. I got there and there was a crew laying sod and from what I witnessed I am positive that only 10 feet of laterals were dug before being covered up with sod. I asked some questions of friends that were doind painting and faux finishes there that day and was told that his site superintendent used to be an inspector for the city and was "trusted" by the current inspectors who signed off on everything. I have for 20 years now wanted to go to that house and ask if they have had any septic issues or have expected to see on the news a deck collapse on a multimillion dollar home during some party. Permits were pulled and inspections were "done". I have no respect for the whole inspection process, it is only a way for the little guy to get hosed and the big builders to get the handshake and a nod.
 

tdkkart

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
6,887
Location
Eastern Iowa
Just drove by a house the other day where the deck had clearly sheared off the side of the house. Fortunately it was only 1ft off the ground.

Old neighbor sheared the deck off the side of his house just as his new hottub reached the full mark. Come to find out there was over 20ft of deck attached to the rim joist with a total of 8 screws, not bolts, screws.
 

ptschram

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
2,573
Location
Churubusco, IN
My home formerly belonged to an electrical contracting company owner, licensed master electrician.

I've had three fires or incipient fires in the shop/machine shop due to poor workmanship.

Recently, I replaced a light switch in the house. When I pulled the cover off, the box fell into the wall.

When we first moved in, all of the three way switches were wired incorrectly.

I regularly find and have to re-wire things that surprise me the house hasn't burned down yet. We have many smoke detectors and extinguishers in the house.
 

pprince

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
143
The theory of inspections are good.

The problem is inspections have turned into a money maker. At least here in Ontario.

The people who really need to have their work inspected don't because of the adversarial inspection process. If they make a mistake and have to correct it they get a big upcharge for the inspector to 'have' to return to reinspect.

If inspections really were to help people at reasonable cost I think it would have a chance to work but not the way it is now. Reasonable people don't get a permit because they are afraid of getting bent over and the shoddy workers don't because they know they will have a problem.

Follow the money.....
 

dirttracker18

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
3,191
Location
Slate River, ON
Just to add to this interesting discussion and some food for thought for the professionals here.

In Ontario, skilled trades are licensed by the province. In order to obtain said license you must complete a 5 year apprenticeship with a schooling portion in each year. At the end of your appreticeship you write a qualifying test to obtain your license. In theory each licensed skilled tradesman should have a solid understanding of their trade and the codes surrounding it. This is not to say that each tradesman is great at what they do. You pay a fee each year to keep your license up to date. You do not have to work union, although many companies are. Licensed skilled tradesman are well paid and can lose their license for shotty work. In addition to this the provinces have an agreement that if you reach a certain level on your test you qualify for interprovincial status, meaning your license is good across the country.
(Skilled trades include, electricians, plumbers, auto/truck/heavy equip. mechanics, etc)

Legally, in Ontario, you cannot perform the work of a skilled tradesman without your license FOR PAY. You as a homeower can perform many of the jobs in your own home with permits. So legally a handyman cannot perform electrical work and charge someone for it.

The system is not perfect but I like the idea that my journeyman working on my house has completed his/her schooling and apprenticeship and did at one time pass a test. Many people/companies continue to skirt the system but the province is slowing clamping down on it, thanks in part to the public work of Mike Holmes, unions pushing for changes, etc.

No one likes to have rules cramping their style but in the interest of safety a permit is a good idea, at least you have someone who is now responsible if something does go wrong.
Things like electrical work are inspected by an arms length provincial agency, not local municipalities (Electrical Safety Authority) who issues permits and covers inspections. Same rules apply across the province and in theory inspections are the same (although their are still some inspectors that are jack asses).

Building codes must meet provincial standards although local municipalities are responsible for the oversight of such.

I am not looking to start any arguements over permits or who's sytem is better. I just thought I would add the idea to this discussion.
 

Motofixxer

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
681
The permit system, in theory is a good idea. But like anything, it boils down to the people involved. Like anything, there will be good, bad, and everything in between. What's most important, is the the Homeowner MUST do their Due Diligence. You need to check up on your contractors, check the references, ask detailed questions. Ask the why questions. See if they can explain in a reasonable manner. Watch them work. Do they seem to know what they are doing. Will they give you straight up honest answers. There are no guarantees.

Another suggestion, make sure there is a contract, and don't pay everything up front. Pay a portion, like half or maybe 3\4 if the work is almost done. But make sure to withhold final payment till the work is completely finished and any damages are fixed. Too many times I have seen contractors disappear after the work is almost done. If they fight or argue with you about it, that should be a big red flag.

And most importantly, CHECK THEIR WORK. Don't be afraid to look at it or to watch them work. Try to understand what they are doing. If there is anything that doesn't look right, check into it. Get a third opinion if you need to. Most companies will come out and look for free or just a smaller charge for the time.
People don't like to be watched while they work, but who is ultimately responsible for the property? Who will be claiming the loss if something happens?
 
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