why would an airplane kill its engine?

[97fordsuper]

My son and I were outside this evening and we were watching a small prop plane flying around the area. I believe its one of the local farmers. Anyway, the pilot would kill the engine and then glide around for about 30-45 seconds then he would restart the plane and gain some more altitude and do it again.

Is there any specific reason for this? I think I would be scared it wouldn't start back up.


**sorry for being in the wrong section, didnt realize until after I submitted it.

 

[The Cobbler]

could have been a student pilot. They do that as part of the training

 

[JohnKal]

^^^^^^^This.

 

[97fordsuper]

Whoops sorry for putting this in the wrong section. I thought I was in free parking.

And Thanks for the replies

 

[Buckgnarly]

They always did that by my house growing up....as mentioned, training pilots!

 

[pipsters]

Engine failure ABCDs

Airspeed
Best Field
Checklist
Declare Emergency

(gold seal CFI w/ 1500 dual given)

 

[A_Pmech]

It's all fine and dandy until that one time the starter bendix sticks.

 

[ddawg16]

could have been a student pilot. They do that as part of the training

Yep....^^^^ that

Your flying along fat dumb and happy and the instructor throttles the engine down. I don't think they actually kill the engine. You gain just as much training just going to idle without creating a safety issue. At idle, you can't really tell the engine is running by sound...pretty quiet.

 

[Wakefield]

There is a story that during the Siege/Battle of Stalingrad during WW II ,when the Russian Air Force was somewhat not doing a whole lot of contesting against the German Luftwaffe during the days,at night women --probably selected for good night vision--would come over German encampments in small biplanes,gliding in and down from altitude with the engine shut off during the darkest hours of the night,then dropping bombs -by hand?- onto the encampments. Then immediately before anyone could even get to their guns, the engine was started and the plane was out of there. Probably made for poor sleeping.

 

[gagreen]

Yep....^^^^ that

Your flying along fat dumb and happy and the instructor throttles the engine down. I don't think they actually kill the engine. You gain just as much training just going to idle without creating a safety issue. At idle, you can't really tell the engine is running by sound...pretty quiet.

They definitely should be doing full power out training not just throttle down training. Knowing how to restart an aircraft in the air is absolutely vital to a student. It's important to expose the student to as much as possible that way when they are alone they are prepared.

 

[Jay woods]

They definitely should be doing full power out training not just throttle down training. Knowing how to restart an aircraft in the air is absolutely vital to a student. It's important to expose the student to as much as possible that way when they are alone they are prepared.

Really? Seriously doubt it. Especially in a single engine.

 

[Steinmetz]

They definitely should be doing full power out training not just throttle down training. Knowing how to restart an aircraft in the air is absolutely vital to a student. It's important to expose the student to as much as possible that way when they are alone they are prepared.

This practice was discontinued a long time ago. Throttle reduced to idle is used for loss of power practice.

 

[gagreen]

From what I'm reading the FAR's leave it kind of vague. My instructor and I killed the engine. I overhauled the engine so maybe we have more confidence in it than typical rentals. Seems crazy to me to not kill it at least once in training, engine outs happen and no amount of mock motioning will prepare you for the feeling sound or puckering of a stopped engine.

 

[kythri]

I live about half a mile from the municipal airport. Pilots cut their engines flying over my house all the time and glide in to land.

 

[ARAMP1]

I've never actually seen an engine turned off, but we'll pull them back to idle to simulate the loss of an engine. I've done this in everything from Cessna 152s to multi-engine jumbo jets. So, when it does actually happen in real life without an instructor, it's not a big deal.

 

[97fordsuper]

Thanks for the info guys. I knew yall would know. The first time it happened, all I could think was uh oh, this isn't going to be good. Then he did it a couple more times, so I figured there had to be a reason. Thanks

 

[fozzy]

That is a poor instructor there. There is no reason to shut down the engine. As mentioned before, idle is a perfectly acceptable way to simulate an engine-out scenario, particularly when flying a single-engine aircraft. That is just dumb.

 

[steel 35]

I guess they don't do stalls anymore either then?

 

[fozzy]

I guess they don't do stalls anymore either then?

Not even the same thing. Stalls are performed with the engine running.

 

[Bill Bowman]

As mentioned, training, however, it's kind of like going "all in" in Texas Hold-em, ...works great "most" of the time. Bill

 

[Warrenator]

Um, guys, even if you turn off the mixture and ignition, the engine does not stop, it just windmills. No need to use the electric starter at all on most fixed pitch single engine propeller airplanes. (Twin engine airplanes have a need to reduce drag on the inoperative engine, so they have the capability of feathering the propeller so the engine stops turning.) The reason you only throttle back the engine rather than turn off the ignition or mixture is to keep a little bit of heat in the cylinders thereby causing less problems with "shock cooling" the aircooled engine.

Even if you close the throttle, turn off the ignition, remove the fuel mixture, the engine still turns. Add the fuel and spark back and the engine will spin right back up to produce power.

And as the comments above state, pilots do this to practice for power failures, you have to transition to a gliding attitude (nose down) fairly soon or the aircraft will get too slow and the wing will stall. (First pilot commandment, Maintain Thy Airspeed, lest the ground come up and Smite Thee) (airplane wing stall is not caused by a non running engine, has nothing to do with the engine. Even gliders can stall)

Twins are another matter, and a lesson for another day.

 

[ddawg16]

I guess they don't do stalls anymore either then?

A stall in a 172 is easy. (at altitude)

And one of the first things an instructor shows you....when you get the 'shake', you have to know why....and what to do.

 

[Dave455]

The instructor in question is almost certainly just closing the throttle to simulate an engine failure, rather than shutting it down. If you are more than a couple of hundred feet away, you wouldn't be able to hear the idling engine above the aerodynamic noise and wouldn't notice the difference.

Sure, the glide angle is slightly different with an idling engine rather than a shutdown engine, but if you use a good technique it doesn't really matter. The exact nature of a real engine failure can alter the glide angle anyway. Students practice restarting the engine using 'touch drills' which are fine!

Remember that most aero engines are air cooled. If you glide, with the engine idling, it's essential to 'warm the engine' every 500 feet or so (in the cooler U.K. at least) otherwise the cylinders or heads can crack! if you were to shutdown a hot engine and glide it for 2000 or 3000 feet you'd be inviting serious damage!

A 'stall' is nothing to do with an engine stall, but simply practicing slowing down till the wing doesn't produce enough lift, then recovering! The engine power will be going up and down as you practice the manoeuvre, but again it's never shut down!

 

[rick carpenter]

Sounds like the aviation guys know what's going on. But I, as someone on the ground looking up at this, would definitely ask them not to do that directly over my garage... I mean my house.

 

[wrenchguy]

When i was 16 my instructor turned the gas off me, and taught me the way to stay alive after wetting my pants. He told me exactly what to do, we landed on i-65 when they were building it. He turned the gas back on be4 we idle landed, the prop was freewheeling so it started fine. We did a touch and go and continued the lesson about what i was to do when losing power. I'll never forget that lesson, it helped me get thru nam army aviation 69-71 and all through life. I don't fly anymore, that instructor, my DAD just logged 30,000 hours last november 3rd, his 86th birthday. When he gives twin engine dual they shut a engine down and feather the prop so it don't spin. They do this all the time when giving twin engine dual, even landing on a single running engine. Its called training 2b prepared.

 

[espyking83]

Dead stick flying. Training most likely, or maybe just bored.

 

[The Cobbler]

When i was 16 my instructor turned the gas off me, and taught me the way to stay alive after wetting my pants. .....

not to hyjack the thread, but in the late 70's I took scuba diving course. on one of our open water tests in 30 feet of water in an old quarry I ran out of air with 1/2 tank showing on gauge. the reserve didn't work either. ( The rod moved but still had no air) I had to surface in the middle of the quarry . The instructor said, I wondered who had that tank & reg... It was a set up to see how your reaction was .

 

[fozzy]

Twin turbo prop does just fine single engine...feathered of course. Not optimal, but survivable and controllable for sure. Twin piston, not so much. The good engine takes you as far as the crash site.

I am all on board training for the worst case scenario. I have been in tight spots before and training is the key to performing the appropriate action. Realistic training does not have to be deadly. That is what simulators are for.

Sorry, I just don't see the sense in shutting down the only good engine you have for training purposes. If you have learned the foundation of aviation principles, and do not have a weak constitution, you should be able to handle any emergency. If you can't, you probably shouldn't be flying.

 

[skyking]

Been flying for 45 years .Im sitting in my living room....80 feet away from my 2 airplanes in my hangar .........and always love reading aviation comments. Some are very amusing.

 

[6-Speed]

It's unlikely they actually stopped the engine ... instead just reduced the throttle to idle.

 

[383 240z]

Reminds me of the old joke. That the propellor is just there to keep the pilot cool. What you don't believe me? Well you watch when it stops turning, how much he sweats! Keith

 

[ZRX61]

At idle they have enough power to just barely kill ya

 

[RedneckWelder]

We pull it back to idle, and it gets quiet enough that you probably thought it was dead.

An airstart or restart is not that huge of a deal though, if it actually happens in an emergency. Typically your training concentrates on what happens if the engine dies while you are at a lower altitude (taking off for example), no time for a restart there, at higher altitudes it's not nearly as much worry because you have the time to set up best glide and then try restarting the engine, and plus you'll already have your LZ picked out for your forced landing if necessary.


And, yes, we still do plenty of stall training, spin training is optional for the private pilot but encouraged (flight instructors do have to do spin training)

 

[kelpaso1]

We pull it back to idle, and it gets quiet enough that you probably thought it was dead.

An airstart or restart is not that huge of a deal though, if it actually happens in an emergency. Typically your training concentrates on what happens if the engine dies while you are at a lower altitude (taking off for example), no time for a restart there, at higher altitudes it's not nearly as much worry because you have the time to set up best glide and then try restarting the engine, and plus you'll already have your LZ picked out for your forced landing if necessary.


And, yes, we still do plenty of stall training, spin training is optional for the private pilot but encouraged (flight instructors do have to do spin training)

To the OP, the instructor does not kill the engine, but jut pull it to idle to simulate engine failure.

Not to hijack this thread either, but why is spin recovery not trained anymore? When I did my pilot training in the 90's, in Canada, (Private, Commercial, Instrument, and Multi Engine) we did spin training. I almost got sick the first few times but after I soloed and flew by myself for some time I found myself doing spins all the time (at 10,000 feet of course) and liked it. It was actually fun. Wasn't allowed to to do it with passengers though I know the US does not do spin training for private pilots (I think) and I think this should be required training to get your pilots license.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

not to hyjack the thread, but in the late 70's I took scuba diving course. on one of our open water tests in 30 feet of water in an old quarry I ran out of air with 1/2 tank showing on gauge. the reserve didn't work either. ( The rod moved but still had no air) I had to surface in the middle of the quarry . The instructor said, I wondered who had that tank & reg... It was a set up to see how your reaction was .

Did you bash him over the head with it??

 

[Rural53]

I've never actually seen an engine turned off, but we'll pull them back to idle to simulate the loss of an engine. I've done this in everything from Cessna 152s to multi-engine jumbo jets. So, when it does actually happen in real life without an instructor, it's not a big deal.

Except if you are single engine IFR in cloud and it wont restart!

I guess they don't do stalls anymore either then?

Don't know of any country that doesn't have stalling in the PPL syllabus.

...

And, yes, we still do plenty of stall training, spin training is optional for the private pilot but encouraged (flight instructors do have to do spin training)

In New Zealand spinning is not required for a PPL. Aerobatic rating does require you to spin. The instructor that (nearly) gave me my Tigermoth rating made me spin as part of the rating. Tigermoths spin about 70deg nose down but come out really easily.

 

[ATC]

My son and I were outside this evening and we were watching a small prop plane flying around the area. I believe its one of the local farmers. Anyway, the pilot would kill the engine and then glide around for about 30-45 seconds then he would restart the plane and gain some more altitude and do it again.

Is there any specific reason for this? I think I would be scared it wouldn't start back up.


**sorry for being in the wrong section, didnt realize until after I submitted it.

I'm in Roanoke. I think I saw the same plane you did! I heard it flying low and slow over my house...then it just went quiet. About 30 seconds later they re-fired it and continued on. It was red/orange iirc...

 

[byoungblood]

This practice was discontinued a long time ago. Throttle reduced to idle is used for loss of power practice.

Yeah, we never completely shut down the engine on a single. One of the C150s at the flight school I got my license with was totaled when an instructor pulled the mixture, couldn't get it restarted in time, and ended up having to really put it down in a field.

I'd have to ask someone around here (I'm a controller, plenty of pilots around too) but I think folks training on twins may actually shut an engine down.

 

[bczygan]

In some aircraft, you idle or completely shut the engine down to practice dead-stick landings (Usually the prop won't freewheel, so more drag). If the plane is high drag, the approach to landing is REALLY steep!

 

[Dave455]

To the OP, the instructor does not kill the engine, but jut pull it to idle to simulate engine failure.

Not to hijack this thread either, but why is spin recovery not trained anymore? When I did my pilot training in the 90's, in Canada, (Private, Commercial, Instrument, and Multi Engine) we did spin training. I almost got sick the first few times but after I soloed and flew by myself for some time I found myself doing spins all the time (at 10,000 feet of course) and liked it. It was actually fun. Wasn't allowed to to do it with passengers though I know the US does not do spin training for private pilots (I think) and I think this should be required training to get your pilots license.

I can't tell you much about US regulation, but in the U.K. spin training hasn't been mandatory for some years.

The reasons for this are threefold! Firstly, many light aircraft, including some trainers, are not approved for deliberate spins. Piper Warriors spring to mind, which will probably be familiar to U.S. readers, but there are many others!

Secondly, many more people were being killed training for spins than in real spin accidents. A former colleague nearly killed himself spinning a few years back (just because it isn't compulsory doesn't mean it isn't taught). It transpired the C of G was an inch out of limits, but that was enough to delay recovery by nearly 4000 feet!

Finally, it's almost impossible to spin (properly) and recover in much under 800 feet. Most real spin accidents occur on the turn to final approach when an aircraft is seldom above 600 feet, and any spin at this point is usually fatal. I have personally witnessed two such incidents, both with that outcome.

The regulators have therefore decided, quite correctly in my opinion, that the emphasis should be on 'spin avoidance' rather than 'spin recovery'. The considerable reduction in spin related fatalities since this policy was introduced more than justifies it in my opinion!

Of course, if you want to practice spins, or aerobatics, or whatever, then any instructor will be delighted to allow you to do so, but in a suitable aircraft, in suitable weather conditions, and probably at a stage in your training when you have a suitable amount of experience to benefit from the manoeuvre. In my experience this is usually at 30 hours plus, as part of your test preparation, and not at 10 hours prior to first solo, which is when it was historically taught!