Will 200A require new meter?

[bczygan]

Right now I have a 60A fused panel (2 30A mains).

I'm going to install a 200A panel and feed the existing panel until I run new circuits throughout the house. The existing circuits are not grounded. But my question is not about any of that.

When I install the new panel I will also install a new weather head, service entrance cable and meter box. The existing meter is a remote reading type so the meter reader doesn't have to come into the yard.

3 questions:

Do they make a remote (Radio) meter for 200A?
Is it a different meter for 200A then for my existing service?
Will it harm the existing meter to have it in place when my service is upgraded?

An electrician (Journeyman) customer at HD said it would hurt the meter even if I put very little load on the service. I contended that if I ran no more load than I am doing now, that the existing meter would see no difference.

If it requires a different meter when I do put more of a load on the service, then before I do so, I will get the service drop and the meter upgraded by the power company.

 

[bczygan]

Note:
Some of the houses in the area are starting to get the digital meters.
Do these have a size rating?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I think virtually all of the smart meters are 200 amp. or greater.

Power company came around with a truck load of meters and went down the street changing them out. My shop meter was a smart meter one only a few months old, but the guy said they had to change them all, so he did.

I have the iCon residential meter made by Sensus

http://sensus.com/web/usca/electric...ity-metering/product/icon-a-residential-meter

and they all appear to be 200 amp or 320 amp. If you have service less than that you will still be getting a 200 amp rated meter. If your meter can/socket is not rated for 200 amp however (as many very old ones are not) you will, whenever you upgrade your service, need to replace the meter can along with the mast and service entrance cables.

When you upgrade the POCO will come out and remove the meter and cut the service at the top of the mast.... and when you are done with the installation and inspection, they will come back and connect your mast wires (and run new ones if necessary) to the feed from the pole and reinstall the meter.

Charles

 

[sickjuice]

What your proposing requires the involvement of the power company anyways, so if the meter need to be changed it will be taken care of.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

There are old 60 amp meters still floating around out there. A lady down the road had one, and I assisted her with an upgrade to a 200 amp service. New everything, meter socket/disconnect combo, new breaker panel, and then EMC came out and ran a new underground service down the pole and over to the new meter. After they did that, we did the swap over inside, which was easy as it was all planned out.

Charles

 

[bczygan]

Service is circa 1941.
I want to do all the new upgrade all the way up to the weather head, then switch the existing meter into the new meter box and connect the existing OH drop to the new weather head and service entrance.

What I will have is a new service entrance and panel complete at the 200A level, with the old meter and OH service drop from the pole.

Then I would call the power company and ask them to upgrade the OH service drop from the pole to the weather head IF it is sized too small for 200A service.
At that time, if the existing meter was also inadequate in some way, they would also upgrade that.

Done in this order, I would have no interruption in service. And the power company could take their time upgrading the OH drop and meter (If needed).

Any reason that I couldn't operate that way until they make the change, as long as I don't put more than 60A of load on the OH service and meter?

 

[BillK]

Service is circa 1941.
I want to do all the new upgrade all the way up to the weather head, then switch the existing meter into the new meter box and connect the existing OH drop to the new weather head and service entrance.

What I will have is a new service entrance and panel complete at the 200A level, with the old meter and OH service drop from the pole.

Then I would call the power company and ask them to upgrade the OH service drop from the pole to the weather head IF it is sized too small for 200A service.
At that time, if the existing meter was also inadequate in some way, they would also upgrade that.

Done in this order, I would have no interruption in service. And the power company could take their time upgrading the OH drop and meter (If needed).

Any reason that I couldn't operate that way until they make the change, as long as I don't put more than 60A of load on the OH service and meter?

BC,
You are asking the wrong people The power company is the only one who can accurately answer this question. They may or may not allow what you are proposing to do, but they are the ones that need to tell you, not us.

Normally, anything from the meter on back is the power companies property anyway and not your responsibility. This includes the drop and overhead lines. I really dont think you can touch the overhead lines, that is thier property and they will have to move them or replace them.

 

[Torque1st]

Bill K is correct. You are questioning the wrong people. Most POCO will require that you pull a permit and have your wiring inspected before they will hook up a new drop. The POCO probably has a document on the web somewhere that explains the process.

 

[bczygan]

BC,
You are asking the wrong people The power company is the only one who can accurately answer this question. They may or may not allow what you are proposing to do, but they are the ones that need to tell you, not us.

Normally, anything from the meter on back is the power companies property anyway and not your responsibility. This includes the drop and overhead lines. I really dont think you can touch the overhead lines, that is thier property and they will have to move them or replace them.

Bill,
Here in SE MI, the power company does the OH service drop wires to your weather head. You do everything else including the weather head, service entrance cable to the meter box, the meter box itself, service entrance cable through the wall and into your distribution panel and circuits. They own and provide the meter of course.

This question has nothing to do with the power company. It has to do with whether a 200A service entrance can be used with the existing OH drop and meter without damaging it. In other words, can I continue to pump the same amount of Amps through the same system that simply has had bigger service entrance wire, meter box and panel installed. Seems a no brainer to me, but an electrician thought the meter would be damaged. What say you?
To understand the question, remove all reference to who owns the particular parts of the system, from the equation. Say it is all mine. From power generation on down the line. The question is just about making Part of the piping bigger but still using it like it was the same size by not changing the flow.

 

[BillK]

This question has nothing to do with the power company. It has to do with whether a 200A service entrance can be used with the existing OH drop and meter without damaging it.

Yes but you said:

and connect the existing OH drop to the new weather head and service entrance.

You cant do that, the power company has to. So you will have an interuption no matter what while they do that part.

As far as you original question goes, why would it hurt the meter if you are not running any additional current through it ? Question is, will the 60 amp meter plug into the 200 amp meter base ?

 

[bczygan]

Yes but you said:

and connect the existing OH drop to the new weather head and service entrance.

You cant do that, the power company has to. So you will have an interruption no matter what while they do that part.

As far as you original question goes, why would it hurt the meter if you are not running any additional current through it ? Question is, will the 60 amp meter plug into the 200 amp meter base ?

Exactly what I thought. The electrician was worried that the meter would somehow be damaged. I think he was worried about the potential for damage if excessive loads were hooked up to it. But it looks like all the modern meters are 200A capable at a minimum. And the meter boxes have the same sockets. So it would work. Anyone have a different take?

 

[sickjuice]

Service is circa 1941.
I want to do all the new upgrade all the way up to the weather head, then switch the existing meter into the new meter box and connect the existing OH drop to the new weather head and service entrance.

What I will have is a new service entrance and panel complete at the 200A level, with the old meter and OH service drop from the pole.

Then I would call the power company and ask them to upgrade the OH service drop from the pole to the weather head IF it is sized too small for 200A service.
At that time, if the existing meter was also inadequate in some way, they would also upgrade that.

Done in this order, I would have no interruption in service. And the power company could take their time upgrading the OH drop and meter (If needed).

Any reason that I couldn't operate that way until they make the change, as long as I don't put more than 60A of load on the OH service and meter?

First of all, if you have to ask these basic questions your definitely not qualified to be doing a hot service change.
Further more, if you knew what you are doing, you would know that a remote meter knows when it has been pulled and that it notifies the power company of this event, and depending on your poco the meter may be programmed to open its internal contacts in such a circumstance so that you don't have power when you reinstall it.

 

[bczygan]

First of all, if you have to ask these basic questions your definitely not qualified to be doing a hot service change.
Further more, if you knew what you are doing, you would know that a remote meter knows when it has been pulled and that it notifies the power company of this event, and depending on your poco the meter may be programmed to open its internal contacts in such a circumstance so that you don't have power when you reinstall it.

First, I don't like working on anything hot. I prefer they shut down the entire grid for me first. I certainly wouldn't do this kind of work myself.
Which kind of meters can do this shut down? Is it the digital meters only? We have the old wheel type in most places here, with just a few being the digital. Most meters still need a guy coming by to read them. Some like mine, allow them to read them from the sidewalk. Do those have shutdown modes? I've pulled my meter and it doesn't shut down.

 

[yost69]

I just upgraded my service about a month ago. It wasn't 60 but 100.

After I got the service installed, which included everything from the weatherhead down, because like you, the power company doesn't own that. They came and put my old meter back in. Then a week later they came back with a new meter for some reason and put that in.

 

[brewchief]

Yes but you said:

and connect the existing OH drop to the new weather head and service entrance.

You cant do that, the power company has to. So you will have an interuption no matter what while they do that part.

I live in the same state as bczygan and have been on the jobsite during at least a dozen and probably more service changes/upgrades and have yet to see the power company at the job, the electrician cuts the drop wires, tapes them up and lowers to the ground with a rope, when done with the upgrade they raise them back up and attach to the new wires at the masthead with splitbolts. A week or two later the job will get inspected by the county/state and then the power company will stop by and reseal the meter can.

 

[yost69]

A week or two later the job will get inspected by the county/state and then the power company will stop by and reseal the meter can.

A week or two.

Our inspector comes the same day you call him or at least the next day. Then the power company comes within a day and hooks back up to the weather head and puts the meter in.

I couldn't imagine having to wait a week or two.

 

[brewchief]

A week or two.

Our inspector comes the same day you call him or at least the next day. Then the power company comes within a day and hooks back up to the weather head and puts the meter in.

I couldn't imagine having to wait a week or two.

Power is back on before the electrician leaves the job, in some cases it may get inspected the next day or it could be a couple weeks, I schedule our HVAC inspections and it is normally at least two weeks from the day we do the job and I have scheduled some six months away(when the customer gets back from Florida).

 

[jdsac]

In my area, you need a permit & inspection to do a panel. The Power company comes out & disconnects you. They will not reconnect you until you have a signed off inspection. If your power drop wasn't sized for 200a, then they change it as part of the process. As I understand it, you are responsible for everything from the weatherhead down.

 

[bczygan]

Electricians here will work hot to disconnect the drop and reconnect as mentioned above, especially the jack leg ones. You would still need to get the drop upgraded by the power co. to use the full service capability if your OH service wasn't adequate.

I just found it funny that an electrician was so kowtowed by the code as to think that putting a bigger panel and service entrance would damage the meter.

 

[madosta]

Electricians here will work hot to disconnect the drop and reconnect as mentioned above, especially the jack leg ones. You would still need to get the drop upgraded by the power co. to use the full service capability if your OH service wasn't adequate.

I just found it funny that an electrician was so kowtowed by the code as to think that putting a bigger panel and service entrance would damage the meter.

I think you got trolled in real life... lol - probably just a misunderstanding. If you put 200 amps through a new meter old socket and old wires, well yea there's some issues, but you're not doing that.

 

[RCStocker]

YOu need to pull a permit, contact the power company. They come out and disconnect the line and pull the meter. You install the new service pannel and then it inspected before the power company comes and turns it on and installs a new meter.

 

[Jarcese]

I've seen 60 and 100 amp meters run fine in a 200 amp socket for long periods of time. Is it a good idea? Not really. Everything has a rating for a reason. I would imagine the reason why they're not burned out is because most houses are not running at 100 amps on 200 amp setup.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Let me correct some misnomers- if the service is OH, 99% of the time, the customer owns everything from the weather-head down, except the meter. If the service is underground, then most of the time the utility owns the cable going into your meter main or socket.

Yes, if your load stays the same, u upgrade your panel and use the same meter then you shouldn't have a problem- the load is the same! To check what your meter is rated for, look for the letters TA. Next to that will be 2 #s- 15=100a, 30=200a. And if your meter is read by the meter reader using infrared, then no its not a smart meter and you won't have to worry about it signaling the PoCo.

The only problem with pulling your own meter is that they have a seal tag on the meter ring that u have to cut and some PoCos get upset when they come by to upgrade your service and discover 'someone' has cut their tag! I have noticed that this is entirely dependent on who gets dispatched to do your work, so u may not have a problem cutting it.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

You should always involve the POCO in a meter removal/install. In many states it is a Felony to remove or install a meter if you are not the POCO or are not authorized by the POCO.

Charles

 

[-Brent-]

Michigan goes by the NEC, so any service upgrade is going to need a permit. Here's the website that will answer ALL your questions.

It's no small job, either. We took my house from 60A service (done in 1945/46) to 200A. I don't need that in the house, but I will be running a subpanel in the shop, this spring to update that, too.

 

[Jarcese]

Around here nobody really cares about the meter tag. Electricians are supposed to call for permission, but they rarely call, especially if they're troubleshooting back to the weather head. Where it does matter is if you happen to be suspected of stealing and you have a cut tag, then that's evidence against you whether you were stealing or not so it's not a good idea to cut it.

In another scenario which is not likely, but can happen is that your upgrade that you built without notifying the company overloads a transformer or wire and causes damage. Now you're really going to be paying for trying to skirt the rules.

Looks like you were just curious to see if it would work or not though, not trying to get away with not pulling a permit. So for the record, not accusing.. just throwing out scenarios.