Will Electronics and other Items Function properly Without a Ground?

[FMC1959]

My old house has many outlets that are inversed, or in this case, wired correctly but no ground. What I know is that the ground is basically to protect us. So if I replace the receptacle with a GFCI (I am protected), are there any electronics or other devices that will not work without a proper ground?

Thanks

 

[micromind]

I've seen tons of 'sensitive electronic equipment' that has ran for years without a ground connection. I've also seen some of it with the hot and neutral reversed.

One issue that could arise is if there are surge suppressors that use the ground to dissipate voltage spikes and there's no ground, stuff might get wrecked, especially if there are lightning storms in the area.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the main thing you need a ground wire for in the electronics world is surge suppressors and UPSs.... most all electronics nowadays are double insulated and thus dont even have a ground wire on their cord (2 wire plug instead of 3).

 

[FMC1959]

No plumbing close by, despite some drain pipes are iron. No other outlet nearby that is grounded. Adding a ground to an outlet, in a bedroom, of an old house, how difficult?

**** I ask because this will be my room/office with PC's and other stuff, connected to an APC power bar surge protector.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No plumbing close by, despite some drain pipes are iron. No other outlet nearby that is grounded. Adding a ground to an outlet, in a bedroom, of an old house, how difficult?

**** I ask because this will be my room/office with PC's and other stuff, connected to an APC power bar surge protector.

code allows you to run a separate ground wire... I have done this on several of the places Ive rented..... how hard will it be all depends on the building layout... no way any of us could advise since we have no clue what the building is like

you dont want to use plumbing unless you know for absolutely sure its metal all the way from your attachment point to the point where you bond it to the panel.

 

[FMC1959]

OK, thanks

 

[PWC Repair]

I'm pretty sure the GFCI outlet NEEDS to have a ground to function. The surge protector NEEDS to have a ground to function correctly.

 

[Shiftless]

Here is how I understand it.
GFCI devices compare the current going each way such as through the black wire and the white wire. If there is even a slight imbalance, the device shuts off the power. So you don’t need a ground. Any difference means that some current is flowing somewhere where it isn’t supposed to. Like through your body onto the wet grass where you are standing while weed whipping your lawn.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm pretty sure the GFCI outlet NEEDS to have a ground to function. The surge protector NEEDS to have a ground to function correctly.

not correct. a GFCI does not need an EGC to function. this is because all the GFCI does is compare the current flowing on the ungrounded conductor (hot) and the current flowing on the grounded conductor (neutral) and if they dont match by more than 5ma, it trips.

 

[Bert_]

I'm pretty sure the GFCI outlet NEEDS to have a ground to function. The surge protector NEEDS to have a ground to function correctly.

Gfci will function perfectly fine without a ground.

Using a GFCI to install a three-prong outlet on an ungrounded circuit is perfectly acceptable by code. I have done this many times.

 

[rooster59]

You might have old 2wire no ground wiring, but an updated panel with a proper ground. As far as I know you can run a separate ground if that’s the case. I would use green THHN in a proper gauge.

 

[KenC]

Gfci will function perfectly fine without a ground.

Using a GFCI to install a three-prong outlet on an ungrounded circuit is perfectly acceptable by code. I have done this many times.

I think that a GFCI installed w/o a ECG requires it to have a little sticker installed stating no ground available. Unless my memory has failed, (possible), all the GFCIs I've purchased have had that sticker in the box.

 

[rlitman]

...One issue that could arise is if there are surge suppressors that use the ground to dissipate voltage spikes and there's no ground, stuff might get wrecked, especially if there are lightning storms in the area.

A surge suppressor would lose something between 1/2 and 2/3 of it's ability to stop surges if missing a ground on a single phase system. The MOV can only short L-N, and not L-G and N-G. It still will work a little. Anyway, just install an SPD in the panel where you have ground, and you'll be far better protected than any plug in surge suppressor can provide.

The only thing I can think of that won't work specifically when plugged into an ungrounded GFCI would be a Level I EVSE. Unless you're planning on slow charging your car from these outlets I don't see any real issues.

There are also high leakage current devices that require a good ground. These will certainly trip a GFCI, but outside of hospitals, industrial facilities and data centers they're pretty uncommon, so for the most part if a device trips a GFCI something is defective (the device, or the GFCI).

 

[dcg9381]

So if I replace the receptacle with a GFCI (I am protected), are there any electronics or other devices that will not work without a proper ground?

Grew up with a really old place (built in 1940s). Aluminum wire. No grounds. Pretty much all "modern" things worked that were 120V and consumer grade. I really can't think of something that didn't work that would be allowed in living area.

I think there was some risk with old metal bodied appliances and tools. Not that they wouldn't work. But that you're the ground if things internally get worn out.

EVSEs (EV chargers) - I've seen some pretty picky ones that won't work without grounds at all.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Grew up with a really old place (built in 1940s). Aluminum wire.

In the 1940s it's likely tin plated copper, to counteract reaction between between the copper and the rubber insulation (insulation hardens and cracks)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think there was some risk with old metal bodied appliances and tools. Not that they wouldn't work. But that you're the ground if things internally get worn out.

the sketchy part about older appliances is the non-polarized plug. back then the chassis was bonded to neutral, so if you inserted the plug the wrong way into the receptacle (hot and neutral reversed) you could energize the chassis and potentially electrocute yourself....

 

[u3b3rg33k]

A surge suppressor would lose something between 1/2 and 2/3 of it's ability to stop surges if missing a ground on a single phase system. The MOV can only short L-N, and not L-G and N-G. It still will work a little. Anyway, just install an SPD in the panel where you have ground, and you'll be far better protected than any plug in surge suppressor can provide.

The only thing I can think of that won't work specifically when plugged into an ungrounded GFCI would be a Level I EVSE. Unless you're planning on slow charging your car from these outlets I don't see any real issues.

There are also high leakage current devices that require a good ground. These will certainly trip a GFCI, but outside of hospitals, industrial facilities and data centers they're pretty uncommon, so for the most part if a device trips a GFCI something is defective (the device, or the GFCI).

here's the gold standard in surge protectors:

Tripp-Lite isobar Surge Protector Tear-Down

The iconic Tripp-Lite isobar falls under the knife in today's power strip tear-down. Is this unit as well-built as its heritage suggests?

www.tomshardware.com

and it's got L-N, L-G, and N-G covered. I wouldn't be shocked if super cheap versions omitted *something*

as for devices that will happily trip your GFCI, VFDs come to mind. plenty of leakage. there's some big filtering in appliances like direct drive/inverter washing machines to avoid the GFCI trip issue.

 

[rlitman]

here's the gold standard in surge protectors:
...and it's got L-N, L-G, and N-G covered. I wouldn't be shocked if super cheap versions omitted *something*...

You misread me. My point was, nothing can protect L-G or N-G when G isn't present.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

You misread me. My point was, nothing can protect L-G or N-G when G isn't present.

My point was more that it wouldn't shock me if a cheapo protector is ONLY x-ground, so no ground = no protection at all. I haven't verified this of course.

 

[FMC1959]

A surge suppressor would lose something between 1/2 and 2/3 of it's ability to stop surges if missing a ground on a single phase system. The MOV can only short L-N, and not L-G and N-G. It still will work a little. Anyway, just install an SPD in the panel where you have ground, and you'll be far better protected than any plug in surge suppressor can provide.

The only thing I can think of that won't work specifically when plugged into an ungrounded GFCI would be a Level I EVSE. Unless you're planning on slow charging your car from these outlets I don't see any real issues.

There are also high leakage current devices that require a good ground. These will certainly trip a GFCI, but outside of hospitals, industrial facilities and data centers they're pretty uncommon, so for the most part if a device trips a GFCI something is defective (the device, or the GFCI).

Mr rlitman, you peaked my interest with an SPD. I vaguely remember hearing about these years ago. If I install an SPD, this will do what a surge suppressor bar does? Being in the panel the whole house is protected. The 2 links below, would these do the trick? If I understand these correctly, these ones in particular would cover everything except 240v. I am thinking that for a hot water tank, oven and clothes dryer, there is not much need for surge protection

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-R2120-B-Surge-Protective-Panel/dp/B0CNTVSDXZ/?tag=atomicindus08-20

https://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-QO2175SB-SurgeBreaker/dp/B000CG80KY/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[rlitman]

... If I understand these correctly, these ones in particular would cover everything except 240v...

No, they would cover everything. Period.

If you have a Square D QO panel, I would recommend the latter. The Leviton technically has better specs, but the shorter the path from the panel bus to the SPD, the better it will work, and there's nothing shorter than plugged directly onto the bus (as opposed to on wires down-stream of a breaker).

 

[FMC1959]

Awesome, thanks

 

[dave*99]

The manger of distribution at my POCO recommended a higher capacity unit. 80kA

 

[theoldwizard1]

the main thing you need a ground wire for in the electronics world is surge suppressors and UPSs....

I think it is more than that !

Most furnaces have some type of electronics in them. I know that when jury-rigging a temporary connection to a generator a ground IS REQUIRED ! (I think the generator was not bonded and I just used the ground in J-box.)

Segue - I was in charge of a medium sized computer server room. Electrician added a 3 phase using flexible non-metallic conduit with a pendant end and a 3 phase outlet. I guess he was lazy and did not add the ground. Good thing the computer technician plugged in the equipment and it would not power up ! After a heated discussion between the two, the ground wire was added and everything was good !

 

[theoldwizard1]

My old house has many outlets that are inversed, or in this case, wired correctly but no ground. What I know is that the ground is basically to protect us. So if I replace the receptacle with a GFCI (I am protected), are there any electronics or other devices that will not work without a proper ground?

My daughter's first house was built pre-1950 (immediately after WW-II). 2 wire, no ground. She has a desk full of computer equipment plugged in to a 3 wire power strip. I installed a GFCI (with the warning label) for the power strip and everything worked fine !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Electrician added a 3 phase using flexible non-metallic conduit with a pendant end and a 3 phase outlet. I guess he was lazy and did not add the ground.

what a *****.... always provide an EGC in your circuits... FIRED!!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My daughter's first house was built pre-1950 (immediately after WW-II). 2 wire, no ground. She has a desk full of computer equipment plugged in to a 3 wire power strip. I installed a GFCI (with the warning label) for the power strip and everything worked fine !

still not koshers. should run a ground wire to the panel or nearest kosher ground connection

 

[FMC1959]

The manger of distribution at my POCO recommended a higher capacity unit. 80kA

I personally do not know for sure, but the size of your service coming in might be why he said that? Me, I have 200 amp, which I am thinking is pretty much the norm for most houses. I believe that there is more demand in recent years for 400 amp with car chargers, tankless hot water and other high demand electrical equipment that was not around years ago.

 

[dave*99]

I personally do not know for sure, but the size of your service coming in might be why he said that? Me, I have 200 amp, which I am thinking is pretty much the norm for most houses. I believe that there is more demand in recent years for 400 amp with car chargers, tankless hot water and other high demand electrical equipment that was not around years ago.

FWIW I have 200A service and natural gas service. Everything that can run on gas does run on gas. No car chargers etc. House completed in 2021.

 

[FMC1959]

My daughter's first house was built pre-1950 (immediately after WW-II). 2 wire, no ground. She has a desk full of computer equipment plugged in to a 3 wire power strip. I installed a GFCI (with the warning label) for the power strip and everything worked fine !

My house is a 1900 construction, in a small village of about 30 house in the middle of corn fields; some of my neighbors were built in the 1890's.

what a *****.... always provide an EGC in your circuits... FIRED!!

still not koshers. should run a ground wire to the panel or nearest kosher ground connection

Without ripping open walls and spending a lot of time & money, adding a ground is not easy. Most of the outlets in the house are grounded (although some are reversed polarity, which I am slowly fixing). The bedroom I am fixing up as my new bedroom/office has 3 outlets; 2 are not grounded.

I figure changing the 2 ungrounded receptacles for GFCI's and using "rlitman's SPD" idea for the whole house, it should cover my bases?

 

[FMC1959]

FWIW I have 200A service and natural gas service. Everything that can run on gas does run on gas. No car chargers etc. House completed in 2021.

Again, I personally can't say.

I do not know all the guys on this board who are electricians, or electrical engineers, but I know that rlitman (and a couple of others) usually knows what he is talking. I figure he would have asked the size of my service entrance, or stated that a higher capacity might be necessary.

 

[rlitman]

The manger of distribution at my POCO recommended a higher capacity unit. 80kA

I personally do not know for sure, but the size of your service coming in might be why he said that? Me, I have 200 amp, which I am thinking is pretty much the norm for most houses. I believe that there is more demand in recent years for 400 amp with car chargers, tankless hot water and other high demand electrical equipment that was not around years ago.

Looking at the spec sheet for the Schneider HEPD series, my takeaway is that they increase the warranty period and "insurance" coverage as you step up from the 25 to the 50 to the 80. But that doesn't mean it's going to stop an individual surge better. Think of it like the difference between a 6, 9 and 12 year water heater, which is usually a combination of better anode(s) provided and bigger numbers printed on the paper. They all get your water to the same temperature.

In this case, the 80 may be packing more MOVs (the active components used in SPDs) and fuses into the box, but it's not really clear. And all it takes is ONE MOV to stop a surge. The reason for having more than one is that MOVs are consumables. Every surge event erodes them a little, and having a 10 in parallel means you'll get 10 times the life out of them. That may matter in a really poor power environment (commercial), but probably doesn't matter in most residential cases (especially on 200A and smaller feeds). Alternatively, you could just install two of these. By Schneider's logic, two 50's in parallel would equal 100.

There IS however one huge difference between the external Leviton and the Schneider SPDs that I spotted when I looked closer. The Leviton has no N-G protection (notice, no green wire). That's fine, IF you're installing this in a main panel at the neutral-ground bond point, but you want an SPD with a green wire if you're installing in a subpanel.

 

[PCustoms]

still not koshers. should run a ground wire to the panel or nearest kosher ground connection

Huh?

I thought adding a GFCI to an ungrounded circuit was a valid repair? I swear I've even seen you comment (in this thread?) on the GFCI will still function as a GFCI without a ground!

 

[dave*99]

Looking at the spec sheet for the Schneider HEPD series, my takeaway is that they increase the warranty period and "insurance" coverage as you step up from the 25 to the 50 to the 80. But that doesn't mean it's going to stop an individual surge better. Think of it like the difference between a 6, 9 and 12 year water heater, which is usually a combination of better anode(s) provided and bigger numbers printed on the paper. They all get your water to the same temperature.

In this case, the 80 may be packing more MOVs (the active components used in SPDs) and fuses into the box, but it's not really clear. And all it takes is ONE MOV to stop a surge. The reason for having more than one is that MOVs are consumables. Every surge event erodes them a little, and having a 10 in parallel means you'll get 10 times the life out of them. That may matter in a really poor power environment (commercial), but probably doesn't matter in most residential cases (especially on 200A and smaller feeds). Alternatively, you could just install two of these. By Schneider's logic, two 50's in parallel would equal 100.

There IS however one huge difference between the external Leviton and the Schneider SPDs that I spotted when I looked closer. The Leviton has no N-G protection (notice, no green wire). That's fine, IF you're installing this in a main panel at the neutral-ground bond point, but you want an SPD with a green wire if you're installing in a subpanel.

My takeaway from the article below is it's likely I'll never have to replace the 80. Also, the 25 is likely adequate for most houses. I do like the LED "OK" indicator on the 80. I can see it walking by the panel. They also make a trim ring for it if you want to flush mount the panel.

Understanding Surge Protective Device Ratings

How to know what kA rating to use

www.ecmweb.com

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Huh?

I thought adding a GFCI to an ungrounded circuit was a valid repair? I swear I've even seen you comment (in this thread?) on the GFCI will still function as a GFCI without a ground!

Its a valid repair for protection of people. a GFCI however will not allow a surge suppressor or UPS (with surge suppression) to operate properly.... thats what i was referring to

 

[LopezBart]

I've seen tons of 'sensitive electronic equipment' that has ran for years without a ground connection. I've also seen some of it with the hot and neutral reversed.

I saw an industrial DEC MicroVAX (1980s microcomputer - about $40k back then iirc) that was destroyed after someone plugged it into a "cheater" cord that reversed hot & neutral (no ground of course ) and the VAX was connected to a device via RS232 that was hooked up correctly. 120VAC into the RS232 ports toasted the VAX, letting the magic smoke out...

This was a shop floor, of course; the shop foremen went on the warpath, removing all the cheater cords w/ ripped out ground plugs and threatening summary firing as a safety issue should they find any new ones. They also had a lot of deficient outlets to fix, which is why the cheater cords were in use. The buildings along Coleman Avenue in San Jose were pre-war iirc; it's where FMC was building the Bradley FV and M113 APC.

All those buildings are gone now, replaced with retail outlets after heavy manufacturing in Silicon Valley became unprofitable due to housing prices, ROI expectations and workforce demographic changes

 

[micromind]

Huh?

I thought adding a GFCI to an ungrounded circuit was a valid repair? I swear I've even seen you comment (in this thread?) on the GFCI will still function as a GFCI without a ground!

Yes, the GFI will work but there's no line-to ground spike protection.

Edit; as noted in post #35 above. Sometimes, I'm a bit slow.......lol.

 

[zimman]

Isn't the basic function of the GFCI to shut off the power to the person or a piece of equipment? I'm in a 115 year old house and all I'm concerned with is killing myself or my loved one's.
Also, I had 3.12 volts to the shower handle. I talked to the electrician and he told me to disconnect the ground from any plumbing. Problem was fixed.
Zim

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Isn't the basic function of the GFCI to shut off the power to the person or a piece of equipment? I'm in a 115 year old house and all I'm concerned with is killing myself or my loved one's.

correct. but that is a separate issue than a surge suppressor with no EGC connectivity

Also, I had 3.12 volts to the shower handle. I talked to the electrician and he told me to disconnect the ground from any plumbing. Problem was fixed.
Zim

horrible advice. fire your electrician

all metallic piping is to be bonded (required by code) to prevent it from becoming energized and electrocuting someone. you said you had 3.12v to the shower handle? and that was metering from what other connection?

you do realize the plumbing bond was just providing a pathway to complete the circuit? whatever other object you were metering from has voltage on it and it shouldnt. This is the object that needs to be investigated for stray voltage.

so you didnt fix the problem and created another potentially dangerous one .... again fire your electrician. he has no clue what he is doing!!!

 

[LopezBart]

Isn't the basic function of the GFCI to shut off the power to the person or a piece of equipment? I'm in a 115 year old house and all I'm concerned with is killing myself or my loved one's.
Also, I had 3.12 volts to the shower handle. I talked to the electrician and he told me to disconnect the ground from any plumbing. Problem was fixed.
Zim

If you have an electric water heater, make sure it is wired correctly wrt to hot/neutral and that it is grounded. Ground all the plumbing securely as wyliesdiesels points out. I've seen water heaters connected to two different 120V breakers (handles not connected)....