Will this junction box hold a ceiling fan?

[Tremelune]

I'm replacing a light with a 20-30lb ceiling fan. I expected to have to replace the junction box, but it's metal and appears to have been reinforced previously. It's an old bracket, but maybe someone has seen something like it before?

I gave it a good push and pull and it's not budging. For me to remove it, I would have to crawl around my attic and throw sparks with a die-grinder or muck up my ceiling. I'm hoping to avoid that.

The junction box has two threaded tabs that seem solid. Am I asking for trouble here or is this a good (albeit old) mount for a fan?

 

[gravelydude]

This box already has a fan support bracket attached. It should be more than sufficient.

Jack

 

[Norcal]

No, it needs to be a fan rated box.


Edit: the photo shows a old style box support, and a standard 4-0 ceiling box, see above.

 

[Git]

If it was me, I think I would just add some blocking and then a couple of screws up through the box.... but then again, I am not an electrician

 

[ddawg16]

Many a fan is being supported by such a box.....

Many a fan wobbles with such a box.

While it 'might' work....I wouldn't do it. Especially when you have access.

The 2x is the cheap and an easy way to go. You can also get retrofit fan rated boxes. I personally find them harder to install than a 2x.

 

[The FIB]

Its hard to tell with all the insulation, but it looks like someone used an emt connector for bx.

 

[rjn2649]

This...

Its hard to tell with all the insulation, but it looks like someone used an emt connector for bx.

...And looks like you got easy access to the bracket, just change it to a heavy duty fan bracket, when you go to a different heavier ceiling fan in the future you'll be happy.

 

[Jazzman442]

If it was me, I think I would just add some blocking and then a couple of screws up through the box.... but then again, I am not an electrician

That is what I wold do. I always make sure the support for a fan that is going to be over me is way more than needed.. LOL

 

[alfredeneuman]

These are easy to install, and suitable for either a fan or a heavy chandelier>>>>
https://www.homedepot.com/p/15-5-cu-in-Retrofit-Ceiling-Fan-Saf-T-Brace-0110000/204845572

A big screw as part of the bracket expands, the sharp tips on the end cut into the joists. They can be installed from below the ceiling.

I've hung my full weight from them and they don't budge

 

[Norcal]

If your going through the trouble to block behind the box, might as well add a code complaint fan rated box.

 

[Marctrees]

Seeing as how you have totally open access to the topside, definately block it, and use long screws through the fan mounting strap that go into your blocking meat.

Marc

 

[alfredeneuman]

Marctrees:
That's a whole lot of labor to save $8.
Even 1 trip up to the attic should not be worth $8 to anybody

 

[Marctrees]

I retired from Elect years ago, before ceiling fans were mandated to have special boxes.

We usually used a ceiling pan very securely screwed to blocking... and when we hung the fan, in addition to he 8/32's, we ran 2" Malco high grade hex head screws through the strap ears and into the backing meat.


We oriented our blocking vertically to reduce possibility of end splitting due to pull, or, if a joist happened to be in the right place, would screw the ceiling pan directly to that, w a KO exposed enough to allow connector... so the axis of the 8/32 holes fell near center of joists, for our 2" screws to go into.



So, That's been my experience, not so much "Fan boxes"

Marc

 

[8mpg]

Cheap and easy to just replace the thing. Then you dont need to worry.

 

[Ray-CA]

If it was me, I think I would just add some blocking and then a couple of screws up through the box.... but then again, I am not an electrician

I did this for all 4-of our ceiling boxes in our 1939 home. Been working well now for 6-years.

Ray

 

[rsanter]

You obviously have access to the top of the box
If it was me I would install a 2x4 between the joints right on top of that exsisting box
Then run screws through the box and into the 2x4 to support it

 

[Tremelune]

Any fear about hanging the fan from the threaded tabs on the box? If I screw it up into a 2x4, that seems like it'd be the weak spot.

I'll probably just cut it out and put in a modern fan box with support, but...it's hot up there.

 

[Marctrees]

The hanging strap that the fan will come with probably elongated holes that will not only hold the 8/32's, but overhang past box edge, allowing long screws to run past the side of box into blocking behind.

At least that is how they all used to be.


Marc

 

[alfredeneuman]

Any fear about hanging the fan from the threaded tabs on the box?

Regular boxes have 8-32 threads
Fan boxes have 10-32? or 10-24? (one of the two) threads

 

[Dirtydan69]

10-32 I believe. Ceiling fan box n bracket is $14. The pain about taking the old one out is I’ll bet it’s nail to the face of the ceiling joist, between the joist and the drywall. You could just pull the box from the strap, patch the hole and install a fan box 4” over.

 

[nadogail]

I would install a retrofit fan box with it's bracket. Just as did when I was in the Handyman business.

If one of my clients was the least bit skeptical I would test the box and bracket with my 200 lb. body weight.

 

[yeldogt]

That was a common box/hanger around me w/plaster ceilings ... it's going to be able to hold a fan. The issue with fans is the screws going into the box that hold the fan --- that's the connection to worry about.

I never wanted to mess up the ceiling -- if you drill out the screw hole and go through the back you can slide a bolt through each and you have made a fan box. Some blocking is most likely overkill ..but easy to do.

You should be able to remove the box from the center support and use it to place a fan rated box back. Add blocking.

I try and do as little as possible around plaster -- trying to remove the old brace is not possible w/o damage. Especially with a saw

 

[75gmck25]

On this type of box I have cut the two supports right at the joist, using an end-cutting metal blade on a Dremel oscillating tool. Then I just installed a modern fan box between the joist.

If you do decide to cut that support bracket near the plaster, you need to watch out for vibration from the oscillating tool. You want to hold the bracket with pliers, and then use the tool with minimum pressure to cut the metal. If you let the oscillating tool push the bracket from side to side or up and down too much, it may vibrate enough to crack the plaster coat underneath. Plaster finishes are not flexible, so they crack instead of flexing.

Bruce

 

[DC73]

Any fear about hanging the fan from the threaded tabs on the box?

Yes. Those threaded tabs are the weak link. In addition, they have just a few threads. Compare a fan rated box to those and you'll see many more threads available for the bolts and much beefier construction.


DC

 

[Rbreddin]

growing up we lived in a house that had a cast iron Hunter fan in every room.

I guarantee this box or one very similar to it was used in the rooms with the "small Hunters"..

in the room with the big hunters, the boxes were mounted to blocking very similar to the image on the first page.

if you're getting a "$80 fan from home depot" yeah... it'll probably work, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.. add some blocking across that thing and increase the support for the fan.

 

[Marctrees]

growing up we lived in a house that had a cast iron Hunter fan in every room.

I guarantee this box or one very similar to it was used in the rooms with the "small Hunters"..

in the room with the big hunters, the boxes were mounted to blocking very similar to the image on the first page.

if you're getting a "$80 fan from home depot" yeah... it'll probably work, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.. add some blocking across that thing and increase the support for the fan.

The above.. but ALSO, the long screws from the fan mounting ball strap into the blocking, NOT just the 8/32's.

Did I say that before ??

Maybe, but not all were listening.

Marc

 

[yeldogt]

growing up we lived in a house that had a cast iron Hunter fan in every room.

I guarantee this box or one very similar to it was used in the rooms with the "small Hunters"..

in the room with the big hunters, the boxes were mounted to blocking very similar to the image on the first page.

if you're getting a "$80 fan from home depot" yeah... it'll probably work, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.. add some blocking across that thing and increase the support for the fan.

The "original" hunter fans used a simple one-sided hook ..sometime in the late 70's/ early 80's they moved to a "U" hook that they still use today. They actually don't use the box for support -- simply to hold the wires. The fans hook support went directly to the brace or blocking. We have them all over the place at the beach.

 

[Tremelune]

What a pain. After much eyeballing, I realized the old box was off-center by about a foot, so I just drilled a new hole and did everything fresh (using the existing wiring).

I bought a metal support bracket, but found the beams were too close together for it to fit (measure once?). I just went the 2x6 route with a pair of 3" screws on each side, with the junction box screwed in from below with the same screws.

I was delighted to find that the previous owner kept the old-*** insulation and just blew new stuff on top...Maybe it doesn't matter.

After much mucking about, I have a smoothly spinning fan that doesn't wobble and a very sweaty education. Thanks, all!

 

[Marctrees]

Excellent !!



Marc

 

[mm08822]

What a pain. After much eyeballing, I realized the old box was off-center by about a foot, so I just drilled a new hole and did everything fresh (using the existing wiring).

I bought a metal support bracket, but found the beams were too close together for it to fit (measure once?). I just went the 2x6 route with a pair of 3" screws on each side, with the junction box screwed in from below with the same screws.

I was delighted to find that the previous owner kept the old-*** insulation and just blew new stuff on top...Maybe it doesn't matter.

After much mucking about, I have a smoothly spinning fan that doesn't wobble and a very sweaty education. Thanks, all!

OP, not to rain on the parade, but your cable connection method to the box has a few safety issues.

First, there is no ground connection to box from the metal jacket of the bx (or greenfield?).
Secondly, the exposed conductors could get damaged from activity in the attic and even energize the box and connected fan – waiting to zap someone.

You need to pull the fan and properly connect the cable. You could keep the same box, but need to move the blocking an inch or so to have clearance around the ko so you can get a connector installed.
Or try as side entry - may have to mine out a little bit of sheet rock for clearance

 

[Marctrees]

What mm said above is spot on.

Absolutely needs to be done for Life Safety reasons.

I was so excited to see the blocking.. I didn't see past that !!

Marc

 

[The FIB]

You might be able to get away with running in to the side of the box (assuming drywall is not covering the knockout) with something like this.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-Flexible-Metal-Conduit-FMC-90-Connector-91101/100155034


Then fill the whole you already made with something like this.


https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-Knock-Out-Seals-4-Pack-26071/100191724

 

[Marctrees]

He can probably gain a few inches of Greenfield somewhere, swivel the box a bit to give clearance to the KO...and then yes, use the 90 connector FIB linked.

OP - In the wiring system you have... the "Greenfield" flex provides Grounding continuity... W/O continuity, as you currently show it, it is a major potential hazard.

My only concern is.... having done alot of electric work for years as a Contractor... that he drilled his new hole SO far from the source, that his flex may be "Too" short.

Now, he can PROBABLY gain a few sufficient inches by working backwards on the flex securement...

But, if not...

Still, his wires showing in the box are long enough that he can get a greenfield coupling and extend it a few inches, using the 90 connector above.

In all cases, it needs to be both grounded by bonding, AND correctly connected to prevent chafe and insulation damage.

Sorry OP, more sweat will be needed to protect your Family and Home.

But, you knew it was not connected properly.

Now, Fix it.

Good job on the support cross member though. !!!

Marc

 

[OsoOC]

Would pop that sucker out and block in a fan-rated metal box. Use deck screws to secure the cross brace into the existing rafters and make sure the box is flush with the ceiling.

There is also a heavy duty plastic box that straddles a rafter. Easy to cut a new hole with a Dremel and patch the old hole with some quick set drywall mud and a backer board. Give yourself enough room to thread the existing wire into the new location. Be sure to twist your wire ends nice and snug before installing the correct wire nuts.

 

[rlitman]

This box already has a fan support bracket attached. It should be more than sufficient.

Jack

No it does not. That's just an old style "new work" box. Absolutely not up to the task of holding a fan.

Its hard to tell with all the insulation, but it looks like someone used an emt connector for bx.

Good eyes. Looks like that to me too.

If your going through the trouble to block behind the box, might as well add a code complaint fan rated box.

Fan rated boxes certainly make hanging fans easier, but are not required for code compliance. While you cannot suspend a fan directly from a regular box, you can still use one with a fan.

The above.. but ALSO, the long screws from the fan mounting ball strap into the blocking, NOT just the 8/32's.

Did I say that before ??

Maybe, but not all were listening.

Marc

Yeah, that's one option I've taken when no other easy methods presented themselves.

OP, not to rain on the parade, but your cable connection method to the box has a few safety issues.

First, there is no ground connection to box from the metal jacket of the bx (or greenfield?).
Secondly, the exposed conductors could get damaged from activity in the attic and even energize the box and connected fan – waiting to zap someone.

You need to pull the fan and properly connect the cable. You could keep the same box, but need to move the blocking an inch or so to have clearance around the ko so you can get a connector installed.
Or try as side entry - may have to mine out a little bit of sheet rock for clearance

Yep, this NEEDS to be fixed. If it were me, and the BX is too short, I'd just end the BX in a box that it reaches, and splice that to a new piece that goes to the fan.

 

[The Cobbler]

yeah. what's been said
you need to correct that wiring at minimum.

 

[Marctrees]

Don't know why "BX" AC is being brought up, by the scale it sure looks like "1/2""Greenfield flex to me.

I must have missed.. did not see this - "Quote:
Originally Posted by The FIB View Post
Its hard to tell with all the insulation, but it looks like someone used an emt connector for bx.
Good eyes. Looks like that to me too."

Anyway, either way, a splice box is permitted in this type of attic (cause it's "Accessible").. cover upwards so it's "accessible"


I just gotta say... seriously... Isn't it very Cool how we here love to fix stuff ?

Not all have this "Gift"


"Is this a lug wrench ?"

" ? Mebbe? ? "


And it IS a "Gift" .... BIG time.

But many, or maybe most of us here do.

GJ members !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Marc

 

[mm08822]

He can probably gain a few inches of Greenfield somewhere, swivel the box a bit to give clearance to the KO...and then yes, use the 90 connector FIB linked.

OP - In the wiring system you have... the "Greenfield" flex provides Grounding continuity... W/O continuity, as you currently show it, it is a major potential hazard.

My only concern is.... having done alot of electric work for years as a Contractor... that he drilled his new hole SO far from the source, that his flex may be "Too" short.

Now, he can PROBABLY gain a few sufficient inches by working backwards on the flex securement...

But, if not...

Still, his wires showing in the box are long enough that he can get a greenfield coupling and extend it a few inches, using the 90 connector above.

In all cases, it needs to be both grounded by bonding, AND correctly connected to prevent chafe and insulation damage.

Sorry OP, more sweat will be needed to protect your Family and Home.

But, you knew it was not connected properly.

Now, Fix it.

Good job on the support cross member though. !!!

Marc

Only "greenfield coupling" I have ever seen is a j-box. What listed product do you have in mind?

 

[Norcal]

Only "greenfield coupling" I have ever seen is a j-box. What listed product do you have in mind?

They make them, never need one though.


The OP's box is a fan rated box.

 

[rlitman]

...The OP's box is a fan rated box.

The new one, yes.