Wilton C2 vise resto

[asp]

I would love to have a oxy/ac setup but I only have a little MAPP gas bottle. Took about 15-20 min to get that piece heated up.

I'm still trying to get the pipe jaws out and the regular jaws off. The MAPP torch doesn't seem to have enough heat to get the areas they're in hot. Still gotta tap the threads for that collar... never had managed to get back around to it...

not a lot left to do, lookin forward to puttin some paint on it and bolting it down.

My next set of pics will probably be how I messed up tapping the holes for the collar lol

really appreciate all the advice and comments guys

Oh man, you are patient. I heated a corner of a pinion yoke on a Dana 70 (similar size as the swivel lock) to the same color in under 2 mins with a cutting head (I don't have a Rosebud head) on my oxy-ace setup.

You're getting there... Good luck.

 

[autopts]

Common jason! We want more !! We are all on the edge of our seats!!

 

[v7guy]

after the misses gifted me a good auto darkening welding hood, a pair of nice leather welding gloves and a more than 1/8" thick welding apron I decided to get back in the garage and try to do something productive.

I spent 20 min with the MAPP torch trying to heat things up but I seem to be at the limitation of what MAPP can do. I couldn't get anything even slightly red. the vise is a MASSIVE heat sink.

today I looked at my local big box stores and they offered an OA setup with no bottles/gas for $175 and a setup with small bottles for $250. I'm pretty tempted to buy so I can progress.

I'm really at a standstill at this point.

to be honest I'm kinda bummed. I now have a tap and die set that will do 10/32 but I haven't tried it yet, the holes drilled seem too small.

I'm all about creative solutions... at the moment I'm out of them. I'm open to lots of suggestions!

Keep in mind I only have hand tools.


I am open to all suggestions and advice...

 

[Davefr]

Have you tried using a handheld impact driver to remove the jaw screws?

It only turns when you whack it which prevents cam out. It worked great on my C2 jaws but mine wasn't rusty.

 

[autopts]

Sounds like you were a good boy! Santa was good to you.
If the heads of the screws are broken off in the jaw housing its not as big a deal as you think however the catch is again, you need another vise to hold the jaw housings in a up position do drill them out. Center punching the top of the broken screw is important and you can go a little bigger on the retap. Enlarging the holes on the collar is nothing.
Good luck and Merry Christmas

 

[v7guy]

I don't have an impact driver unfortunately. The screw heads are intact but two of them are VERY sloppy. I can't get them to budge despite soaking them with PB and the acetone/ATF solution for days. The only reason I've been focusing on heat lately is because it really seems like a reliable solution.

I did notice a propane/O2 combo with a rosebud tip, but I'm skeptical that it will be enough and it seems like it would just be a waste of money since oxy/ac seems to be an inevitable purchase as I do more and more.
I've been considering building a jig to hold the vise and clamping it to the work bench but I'm still very nervous about drilling and tapping holes since I've never done it before. I've not had much luck finding any instructionals online.

I've been using some used motor oil to drill, is there something better? Searching says kroil is great but my only option is to order online.


I really appreciate you guys taking so much time to help me out.

 

[autopts]

I don't have a impact driver unfortunately. The screw heads are intact but two of then are VERY sloppy. I can't get them to budge despite soaking them with PB and the acetone/ATF solution for days. The only reason I've been focusing on heat lately is because it really seems like a reliable solution.

I did notice a propane/O2 combo with a rosebud tip, but I'm skeptical that it will be enough and it seems like it would just be a waste of money since oxy/ac seems to be an inevitable purchase as I do more and more.
I've been considering building a jig to hold the vise and clamping it to the work bench but I'm still very nervous about drilling and tapping holes since I've never done it before. I've not had much luck finding any instructionals online.

I've been using some used motor oil to drill, is there something better? Searching says kroil is great but my only option if to order online.


I really appreciate you guys taking so much time to help me out.

I don't use anything on the drill bit when I drill. I did learn one trick. The drill bit bites better when its a very slow speed, next to no speed and you won't burn the tip. Hi RPM just smooths out and hardenes the base of the hole. That piece your drilling HAS to be hold tightly in place.

 

[Davefr]

I don't have a impact driver unfortunately.

The type I mentioned are cheap. There's no reason not to have one. It's saved me more then once. The strike seats the bit and prevents cam out, turns the bit slightly and also tends to break rust loose.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-reversible-impact-driver-set-93481.html

 

[asp]

I use the $6/can cutting oil at HF to drill. Sharp drill bits, low speed, and steady pressure.

Used motor oil is probably fine.

The benefit to using cutting fluid vs dry is that you can drill faster without hardening the material you're drilling into or softening your drill bit. If you have a good sharp bit and you drill slowly using no fluid is fine. If you do end up tapping some holes, make sure you use cutting fluid.

 

[ZRX61]

The type I mentioned are cheap. There's no reason not to have one. It's saved me more then once. The strike seats the bit and prevents cam out, turns the bit slightly and also tends to break rust loose.

The one I have is a Taiwan cheapy (Talco) that I bought at least 30 years ago. End is mushroomed over & it still works perfectly well.

Appears they only make toolboxes these days:
http://www.talcotoolstorage.com/

 

[v7guy]

The type I mentioned are cheap. There's no reason not to have one. It's saved me more then once. The strike seats the bit and prevents cam out, turns the bit slightly and also tends to break rust loose.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-reversible-impact-driver-set-93481.html

so with the impact driver... you put the bit in the philips head, whack it a few times with a hammer and the hammer hitting it also turns the impact driver?
I have a harbor freight that opened by me a couple months back, I'll have to pick one up.

how much pressure do you guys use when drilling a bolt?
I know I've turned the bits too fast on a few occasions.

 

[autopts]

so with the impact driver... you put the bit in the philips head, whack it a few times with a hammer and the hammer hitting it also turns the impact driver?
I have a harbor freight that opened by me a couple months back, I'll have to pick one up.

how much pressure do you guys use when drilling a bolt?
I know I've turned the bits too fast on a few occasions.

Remember, on that impact driver, there is a loosening position and a tightening position. You want the counterclockwise position. I put a marker line on mine so I can make sure its going in the direction I want. Average pressure on the drill bit. If they are rusted thru, they should come out without too much trouble, or your drill will go right thru into the hallow area in the front.

 

[asp]

how much pressure do you guys use when drilling a bolt? I know I've turned the bits too fast on a few occasions.

If I'm using my hand drill, I put as much pressure on it as I comfortably can on larger bits (>3/8), then modulate the speed by how hard I pull the trigger. I've never even come close to stalling out my 8 amp Milwaukee drill at lower RPM and high pressure, but its max rpm is still only 850... Think about it this way, if you were using a drill press you'd be putting a whole lot more pressure into it, it's just that speed is more controled. I do a lot of metal work so my drill press pretty much stays at its 250 rpm setting. I've only gone to higher rpm a few times, and that was when I had to drill smaller holes in steel.

 

[v7guy]

Thought about the best way to make some progress for a few days. Been working a good bit of overtime to get some money for an oxy/ac setup.
It occurred to me that maybe I could pour some acetone/atf into the pipe jaw cavity and get it high enough to work on the threads of the stuck bolt, I'll let it sit for awhile to see if it works.
I also finally got the nerve to try and tap a couple holes. Got a bit more than 1/4" down before the tap stopped. I have no idea how deep these holes should be. I recall that for a lot of fasteners the rule of thumb is at least as much thread engagement as the diameter of the fastener. I've done that much at least. I also discovered had a couple 10/32 screws around so I ran one in each hole.

 

[bgott]

Use something for a probe and measure the depth of the hole. That way you'll know if it's just a shallow hole or if you are hitting a hard spot down hole. You won't be able to thread the whole depth unless you have a bottoming tap.

 

[Davefr]

I just looked at my C2. Those holes are supposed to go all the way thru.

 

[autopts]

Thought about the best way to make some progress for a few days. Been working a good bit of overtime to get some money for an oxy/ac setup.
It occurred to me that maybe I could pour some acetone/atf into the pipe jaw cavity and get it high enough to work on the threads of the stuck bolt, I'll let it sit for awhile to see if it works.
I also finally got the nerve to try and tap a couple holes. Got a bit more than 1/4" down before the tap stopped. I have no idea how deep these holes should be. I recall that for a lot of fasteners the rule of thumb is at least as much thread engagement as the diameter of the fastener. I've done that much at least. I also discovered had a couple 10/32 screws around so I ran one in each hole.


Its really not important how deep those holes are as long as you can get some bite on those threads, enough to hold that collar in place. They serve no purpose with the tightning. All you want to prevent is the collar moving when loonsing. Continue on your great job!!

 

[mrchuck]

After reading this,,, I went out to the shop and "petted" my Wilton C-2.
I love my 35+ year old Wilton!

 

[v7guy]

made it out to the garage again tonight and started cleanin up a bit. Before I knew it I was tinkering with the vise some more.
It was really bugging me that the holes for the collar was suppose to go clear through. I figured it would probably be ok, but still...

Popped out the dremel and cut off the protruding part of the last broke off screw, center punched it and started drilling...

after that first one I got feelin real froggy and thought I could go ahead and drill the two I already threaded clear through. I started out with an 1/8" bit and dipped it in some used motor oil quite a bit and it seemed to work great. I finished up with a 9/32" bit. I had some problems with the larger bit snagging and spinning in the chuck, but I just kept backing it out and then kept it moving slowly forward. Eventually I seemed to get a "feel" for what was about right.
Eventually I worked the tap down through all three holes. Seemed to take a good bit of time to get it done and I was nervous that I might break the tap. In the end everything worked out.
I started drilling down the bolt that holds the pipe jaw in and after I got to about the side of the pipe jaw the drill stopped.

Does anyone happen to know if the allen head screw that holds the pipe jaws in place goes all the way through the pipe jaw?
Maybe the vise itself is threaded and the screw is more of a set screw holding the pipe jaw in place?

 

[asp]

Being nervous about breaking the tap is what saved you. People who forget how easily they break are the ones who snap them.

Unfortunately, I can't answer your question with 100% certainty. I would guess that it's sort of like a set screw, but with better retention. I'll bet that the vise is threaded and not the removable pipe jaw.

 

[autopts]

made it out to the garage again tonight and started cleanin up a bit. Before I knew it I was tinkering with the vise some more.
It was really bugging me that the holes for the collar was suppose to go clear through. I figured it would probably be ok, but still...

Popped out the dremel and cut off the protruding part of the last broke off screw, center punched it and started drilling...

after that first one I got feelin real froggy and thought I could go ahead and drill the two I already threaded clear through. I started out with an 1/8" bit and dipped it in some used motor oil quite a bit and it seemed to work great. I finished up with a 9/32" bit. I had some problems with the larger bit snagging and spinning in the chuck, but I just kept backing it out and then kept it moving slowly forward. Eventually I seemed to get a "feel" for what was about right.
Eventually I worked the tap down through all three holes. Seemed to take a good bit of time to get it done and I was nervous that I might break the tap. In the end everything worked out.
I started drilling down the bolt that holds the pipe jaw in and after I got to about the side of the pipe jaw the drill stopped.

Does anyone happen to know if the allen head screw that holds the pipe jaws in place goes all the way through the pipe jaw?
Maybe the vise itself is threaded and the screw is more of a set screw holding the pipe jaw in place?

Those mounting holes go all the way thru into the hallow area inside. Don't go too far with the drill bit because there isn't alot of space and it won't take much to drill thru and have the bit come out the other side. Great job!

 

[Davefr]

Being nervous about breaking the tap is what saved you. People who forget how easily they break are the ones who snap them.

^^^Absolutely!!

When you tap, just go forward until you feel pressure and then back off a turn or two to clear the chips. A broken tap can be a major PIA.

For something like this with deep holes I would probably pick the next larger number size drill bit then what the tap recommends.

 

[v7guy]

Those mounting holes go all the way thru into the hallow area inside. Don't go too far with the drill bit because there isn't alot of space and it won't take much to drill thru and have the bit come out the other side. Great job!

are you talking about the pipe jaws?

Took a couple quick pics of the pipe jaws, the pipe jaw in the dynamic jaw seems to be pushed to the side by the mounting screw. Thats what got me wondering if it was a set screw instead of a screw that threaded into the jaw. I assume that the pipe jaw insert is a harder metal so that it's durable. It would also explain why my drill bit stopped at what appears to be where the screw contacts the jaw. Regardless the screw didn't come out even after I drilled down it.



The other pipe jaw fits alot tighter in the recess, which is curious, hope it doesn't cause more problems getting it out.

 

[autopts]

are you talking about the pipe jaws?

Took a couple quick pics of the pipe jaws, the pipe jaw in the dynamic jaw seems to be pushed to the side by the mounting screw. Thats what got me wondering if it was a set screw instead of a screw that threaded into the jaw. I assume that the pipe jaw insert is a harder metal so that it's durable. It would also explain why my drill bit stopped at what appears to be where the screw contacts the jaw. Regardless the screw didn't come out even after I drilled down it.



The other pipe jaw fits alot tighter in the recess, which is curious, hope it doesn't cause more problems getting it out.



Oh, its the pipe jaw! Its hard to tell looking at the front. It looks like those pipe jaws are either held in with set screws (1974-1984 maybe later) Wilton used allenhead set screws just to hold the pipe jaw in place, the side of that pipe jaw is smooth with no holes.

 

[autopts]

are you talking about the pipe jaws?




The other pipe jaw fits alot tighter in the recess, which is curious, hope it doesn't cause more problems getting it out.

That other jaw looks like its held in with rust. Get a Dremel with a small cutting wheel then pretend your a dentist cleaning a tooth on an Elephant!

 

[v7guy]

After more than 4hrs, I just accomplished this...

 

[v7guy]

I drilled the bolt out but it was off center. I tried for hours to turn it out to no avail. The set screw is rediculously hard. I tried to use the dremel but it wouldn't cut deep enough. Then I tried heat, the drill, more brute force and about an hour of sawing at it with a hack saw blade... in an act of desperation I set the 4.5" grinder down in the available space and blipped the switch. The bolt was finally cut and I didn't hit the vise. The pipe jaw fell loose and I'm only left with removing the rest of the bolt and tapping the hole. Still trying to figure out how to center the drill and remove the remains off the bolt.

I have no idea how I'm going to remove the jaw from the other side. The rust on the side I did remove was staggering. Unfortunately I scraped it down before I took pics.

The pipe jaws are held in place by ridges in the castings. The set screw just keeps the pipe jaw from moving around.



I've had the vise parts sitting upright for a couple days now and the screws for the vise jaws have been soaking in PB for two days. I'm hoping it pays off when I use the impact driver.
I have no idea how to proceed. I will not remove the other pipe jaw in the same fashion.

My determination is a bit deflated.

 

[Davefr]

Why is it so important to remove the pipe jaws? Just curious because they don't really look to be in bad condition.

 

[v7guy]

Why is it so important to remove the pipe jaws? Just curious because they don't really look to be in bad condition.

I figure if I have it all apart now, I know I can take it apart later to replace something without destroying the finish or being too delayed in finishing a project.

I'm also learning a lot and it's been a (mostly) fun challenge.

I suppose I could have just drilled out the swivel bolts, replaced them and used the vise. But I wanted something a little nicer after seeing what these things can look like from the many threads on here.

 

[autopts]

Jason, your doing a great job and your patience and percerverence is paying off. You've made this into one of the best vise restoration threads yet on GJ. Hang in there bud!

 

[autopts]

Replacement pipe jaws are $80-$100 if that makes you feel better.

 

[v7guy]

tonight I tried to remove the other pipe jaw. It didn't really go like I'd wanted. I ended up trying to completely drill out the set screw for the remaining pipe jaw but the drill bit didn't get all of the set screw out and it seems to still have some sort of pressure on the pipe jaw.
The final drill size ended up being 5/16ths as the 1/4 got to seeing some of the threads... But there was still screw left and the jaw wouldn't budge.
I ended up heating the vise up pretty darned hot. I didn't get it red, but I couldn't touch it with some leather gloves. I can't help but think it's a mix of there being some rust holding it in and that the remains of the set screw are giving enough pressure to keep it from falling out.
I'm guessing that the method for holding the jaw is the same as the other side so the only way to get the jaw out is a pulling motion and there isn't much area to grip.
I used a drill bit at a former job that was flat on the bit face... don't remember what it's called, but I may run to the store to see if I can find one so I can completely remove the set screw. Will also try to pick up one of those impact drivers.

Whatever material those pipe jaws are made of my drills won't scratch it. Which is great for when I'm clamping some pipe, but not so great in this instance.

If anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears.

 

[PSU Engineer]

The other pipe jaw fits alot tighter in the recess, which is curious, hope it doesn't cause more problems getting it out.

This is just an idea here, but could you tap the set screw threads with a grease zerk and use a grease gun with alot of pressure to pump grease into the cavity of the static jaw? Someone else could chime in here and explain if the vise body behind the pipe jaw in the body of the vise is hollow. In the pictures that you have shown, this wouldn't have worked on the pipe jaw in the dynamic section of the vise. But looking at the clearances between the vise body and the pipe jaw in the other picture, they look pretty tight. The grease may build pressure if the cavity is tight enough.

I know this method works, (albeit somewhat modified), for the pilot bushing / bearing in the flywheel. I also know that my Alemite grease gun is specified to be able to develop 10,000 psi of pressure.

This is probably a crack-pot idea here, but I thought it may help. By the way, since this is a Wilton resto - thread, does anyone know if you can buy replacement parts, excluding jaws (both pipe and vise jaws), from Wilton? I was wondering if you could buy, or more specifically where you could buy the vise hold down "clamps" for the swivel base?

Tony

 

[autopts]

I figure if I have it all apart now, I know I can take it apart later to replace something without destroying the finish or being too delayed in finishing a project.

I'm also learning a lot and it's been a (mostly) fun challenge.

I suppose I could have just drilled out the swivel bolts, replaced them and used the vise. But I wanted something a little nicer after seeing what these things can look like from the many threads on here.

Its also hallow behind that jaw. Have you got any brass stock? If so, place it on that jaw on the top or bottom half and wack it good. That might make it start to pivot. You need to start that jaw moving back and forth. Put your old jaw face to face with it and give the top and bottom a few good wacks. Might need a 16oz or heavier hammer.

 

[Davefr]

I think I'd use cobalt drill bits going forward. Clear out what's left of the set screws. If you have to drill oversize to get them out you can always retap the holes to the next larger size.

If the pipe jaws still won't budge then you might want to drill a hole in them and tap them. Then you could either insert a bolt and tighten it until it hits the back of the casting and it might break the jaw free and pull it out.

You could also use that tapped hole and use a sliding hammer style puller to see if you can get it out.

You'd have to do it in a position where the ridges aren't holding the jaw in.

 

[asp]

Nick beat me to it, but my first thought was to hit it with a hammer. Not the finesse way of doing things, but it usually gets things moving. I wouldn't hesitate to hit it with a 3lb sledge and a brass punch.

 

[v7guy]

This is just an idea here, but could you tap the set screw threads with a grease zerk and use a grease gun with alot of pressure to pump grease into the cavity of the static jaw? Someone else could chime in here and explain if the vise body behind the pipe jaw in the body of the vise is hollow. In the pictures that you have shown, this wouldn't have worked on the pipe jaw in the dynamic section of the vise. But looking at the clearances between the vise body and the pipe jaw in the other picture, they look pretty tight. The grease may build pressure if the cavity is tight enough.

I know this method works, (albeit somewhat modified), for the pilot bushing / bearing in the flywheel. I also know that my Alemite grease gun is specified to be able to develop 10,000 psi of pressure.

This is probably a crack-pot idea here, but I thought it may help. By the way, since this is a Wilton resto - thread, does anyone know if you can buy replacement parts, excluding jaws (both pipe and vise jaws), from Wilton? I was wondering if you could buy, or more specifically where you could buy the vise hold down "clamps" for the swivel base?

Tony

autopts mentioned you can pick up replacement pipe jaws for $100 or less. The vise jaws, a member here was making for people as I recall. Just looked up the thread you can find it here

there is some significant gaps at each end of the jaw and if I squirt some PB Blaster down the hole I drilled it leaks out around the pipe jaw. I only did this because I had the same idea you suggested... I wanted to see if I could pump it out hydraulically. but I think the pressure would probably just gush out the cavities at each end.

Its also hallow behind that jaw. Have you got any brass stock? If so, place it on that jaw on the top or bottom half and wack it good. That might make it start to pivot. You need to start that jaw moving back and forth. Put your old jaw face to face with it and give the top and bottom a few good wacks. Might need a 16oz or heavier hammer.

I didn't have any brass laying around but I did have te other vise jaw handy. I used my 16 oz ball peen and beat the **** out of it for a couple hours. It now moves, it wobbles a good 1/8" but it doesn't seem to be making any real headway other than that. I did notice that one side is lower than the other. The pipe jaw is not square in the hole and I tried to use that to my advantage and beat on the high side to try and get it to move in multiple planes, but I had no luck.
It does wiggle and I'm not sure if I need to just keep hammering it or if I'm just working against futility. It's currently sitting upright soaking in PB.

I think I'd use cobalt drill bits going forward. Clear out what's left of the set screws. If you have to drill oversize to get them out you can always retap the holes to the next larger size.

If the pipe jaws still won't budge then you might want to drill a hole in them and tap them. Then you could either insert a bolt and tighten it until it hits the back of the casting and it might break the jaw free and pull it out.

You could also use that tapped hole and use a sliding hammer style puller to see if you can get it out.

You'd have to do it in a position where the ridges aren't holding the jaw in.

this set screw has already been drilled oversize in my attempt to get the jaw out.

I'm trying real hard to not damage the pipe jaws since they are in nice condition, but it's always an option. In the end I don't suppose a hole would really affect the jaws clamping ability. For cobalt drill bits I assume your referring to these? Those pipe jaws are REALLY hard, neither my titanium coated drills or my black oxide will even think about scratching them. Do you drill with the cobalt bits like you would any other bit drilling metal?
drilling the jaws is my last option, but I'd like to have an idea of how to proceed.







so this is where I'm at now. A lot of great ideas, I really appreciate all the suggestions. it ***** that I don't have a nifty picture of a free pipe jaw for this update but I feel a little bit of hope since it started moving. I hope that I can post up some pics of free pipe jaws in the next few days.
As always, all ideas and thoughts are appreciated.

 

[v7guy]

I've been working on this pipe jaw for 3 hours now. I've sprayed a massive amount of PB blaster in, hammered on it with a 16oz ball peen for longer than I care to remember. Then I started working it with some pliers. I'm confident that it's only held in by rust. The newly adopted garage dog is now relaxed even when I'm wailing on some iron.

 

[v7guy]

I kept working at the pipe jaw and it just came loose.
I'm utterly shocked.
In retrospect I probably didn't need to drill the set screw oversized.
All that's left is to remove the vise jaws.
The amount of rust is staggering.
I still haven't found time to make it to HF to pick up a hand impact driver.i should be able to today.
At this point I'm starting to consider how to finish the vise. I've considered just coating it with oil, but when the vise sees heat I don't need smoke. I've considered blasting it and then painting, I've also considered just removing the rust with a knotted wire wheel.... using electrolysis and then primming and painting. I still have no real preference.

I'm probably getting ahead of myself as I'm sure everyone has noticed the philips heads holding the jaws are "well worn/abused".

Here are the pics.

 

[alton long]

I have been refurbishing large Reed, Parker and wilton vises for reselling over a few years.

I graduated from a 5 gallon bucket up now to a 2’ x 2’ x 4’ high Plastic tank with a 64 amp Battery Charger for rust removal. The rust comes off faster if the part is very close to + rebar, but will weld together if it touches.

I attach the Battery charger negative alligator to a [ -Negative polarity] piece of rebar, screwed down Horizontally across one side of the top of tank and 1/8” away from the [ +Positive polarity] the several Vertical rebar ends sticking up past the top of tank and fastened with ½” copper tubing straps. From the - Negative rebar I attached several pieces of copper wires with large battery clips to make many contacts to the parts, that I lay in a suspended plastic milk crate. so the parts never touch the +Possitive Vertical rebar, but are only a inch away thru the crates many openings.

I disassemble and clean all oil and grease with Home Depots Zep degreaser, which also will REMOVE PAINT if the part can remain wet with it before degreaser is diluted.

I use Arm and Hammer washing soda in the tank and Kaboom tile cleaner sprayed brushed and rinsed after removing part from tank to remove the black oxidation caused by the process.

Dry parts very soon , as the rust will soon start to return when air hits it. If I have many parts in tank, I will remove and finish one piece at a time.
I do not paint the vises because it can hide any imperfections, instead I rub on and rub off [opac] black liquid stove polish, that gives a gun metal appearance and Min Wax paste wax on rag and thinned with paint thinner and applied as a slurry for protection.