Wilton No. 4 Pat Pend - Siezed
- Thread starter mgmlvks
- Start date
BIG WooHoo! PBB did its thing and swivels came right off. Had time and inclination - found the right OD size 3/4" drive socket and my same era 2lb Cheney Hammer and did some "adjusting" - just good solid hits and a scale to measure if there was any movement. So Small, So Small, but eventually it was clear that there was movement! Now pondering the removal of the jaws, rust and paint removal, some shiny new parts and reassembly.
No date on the slide rail
No date on the slide rail
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Shiftless
Well-known member
Doesn't matter...just curious. The "after" picture is helpful for others....the pin hole is just below the level of the "USA" lettering, so that's a good reference point.
So far soaking with a penetrating fluid of some kind and then using a socket from the back of the vise has gotten them freed up for me every time....glad it worked for you as well!
Yes - it was gratifying to see it finally move - will remember that feeling for a long time. I was pleased that I was able to use my tools and skills to make that happen (along with the info and support on GJ). The most interesting thing was pondering that even 20 years ago I am pretty sure I would have gotten out the bigger hammer, and used more force and less patience and almost certainly broken somethng. Guess getting older does include a bit of getting wiser!
Fretters
Well-known member
Fortunately. Wisdom comes from all of the ******** we've dropped and learned from too. 
Finished disassembly tonight - removed the jaw inserts. None of the slots were capable of having a screw driver so I used a dremel to smooth out the slot, drilled out the head and have a couple of revelations
1. Inserts are different on each jaw - rounded upper corners on the dynamic jaw
2. These inserts seem to have only 75+ years of honest wear and no real reason to be replaced.
Soooooo . . . . pondering resto options and couple of thoughts
A. Wanting to paint back with original colors - and really like the Hammered Verde Green Rustoleum
B. Inserts might need slightly refaced, but should be left alone past that
C. Broken pin will be going back in - broken, but with some dimples on the non knurled part to hold it
D. Dynamic jaw has some scoring from cr*p being caught way up toward the end. Will need some softening with emery cloth
E. Next cleaning step is a soak in hot water with lye for grease removal, and then citric for rust. Maybe (Maybe) consider electolysis
And -
What are the two odd dimples on top of the insert? Don't look like welding rod, maybe someone playing with a drill?
Insight and comments appreciated
1. Inserts are different on each jaw - rounded upper corners on the dynamic jaw
2. These inserts seem to have only 75+ years of honest wear and no real reason to be replaced.
Soooooo . . . . pondering resto options and couple of thoughts
A. Wanting to paint back with original colors - and really like the Hammered Verde Green Rustoleum
B. Inserts might need slightly refaced, but should be left alone past that
C. Broken pin will be going back in - broken, but with some dimples on the non knurled part to hold it
D. Dynamic jaw has some scoring from cr*p being caught way up toward the end. Will need some softening with emery cloth
E. Next cleaning step is a soak in hot water with lye for grease removal, and then citric for rust. Maybe (Maybe) consider electolysis
And -
What are the two odd dimples on top of the insert? Don't look like welding rod, maybe someone playing with a drill?
Insight and comments appreciated
Shiftless
Well-known member
mgm:
Nice work so far...
Yes, the dimples on the top of the jaw inserts seem to me like somebody playing with a drill. I have a 1946 dated model 3HD with the same horizontal lined jaw faces and they don't have dimples on top.
If you like the verde green, go for it, but the consensus of opinion here is that the earliest Wilton bullets were NOT that color. Maybe more of a grayish beige. The exact shade seems to have been lost to time. Original paint examples are extremely rare and have of course faded and oxidized.
Nice work so far...
Yes, the dimples on the top of the jaw inserts seem to me like somebody playing with a drill. I have a 1946 dated model 3HD with the same horizontal lined jaw faces and they don't have dimples on top.
If you like the verde green, go for it, but the consensus of opinion here is that the earliest Wilton bullets were NOT that color. Maybe more of a grayish beige. The exact shade seems to have been lost to time. Original paint examples are extremely rare and have of course faded and oxidized.
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I don't know how easy it will be to try and reface those jaws....they're hardened tool steel. KMScott makes accurate reproductions that would probably cost less than paying someone to try refacing the originals. You'd still have the originals, so you haven't lost anything.
It's not uncommon for the static and dynamic have different wear. Depending on what it was being used for, there might have been a specialized task like filing a particular part a hundred times a day, in the same place, and file strokes only touched one jaw...something like that.
The dimples are almost certainly a drill mark.
The early vises that I've seen with original paint have been a lighter blue/gray/green that's hard to describe. Not exactly a powder blue, but not a hospital green, and not machine gray. It's definitely nothing like verde green.
I don't see anything on that vise that would require soaking, much less electrolysis. Soaking brings it's own problems because you're putting moisture and chemicals in places you can't easily get at. If it was heavily rusted you wouldn't have much choice, but you just have paint and very minor surface rust/patina to remove. A fine wire wheel on an angle grinder will have that to shiny, bare metal in less than an hour. You can spray inside the body of the vise with carb cleaner or something similar and run a wad of paper towels/rags down it to clean out any crud. A very light coat of grease or oil on a clean rag and that part is done. No need to mess with inside of the slide at all...they usually aren't even rusty in there to start with...castings don't rust the way steel would.
It's not uncommon for the static and dynamic have different wear. Depending on what it was being used for, there might have been a specialized task like filing a particular part a hundred times a day, in the same place, and file strokes only touched one jaw...something like that.
The dimples are almost certainly a drill mark.
The early vises that I've seen with original paint have been a lighter blue/gray/green that's hard to describe. Not exactly a powder blue, but not a hospital green, and not machine gray. It's definitely nothing like verde green.
I don't see anything on that vise that would require soaking, much less electrolysis. Soaking brings it's own problems because you're putting moisture and chemicals in places you can't easily get at. If it was heavily rusted you wouldn't have much choice, but you just have paint and very minor surface rust/patina to remove. A fine wire wheel on an angle grinder will have that to shiny, bare metal in less than an hour. You can spray inside the body of the vise with carb cleaner or something similar and run a wad of paper towels/rags down it to clean out any crud. A very light coat of grease or oil on a clean rag and that part is done. No need to mess with inside of the slide at all...they usually aren't even rusty in there to start with...castings don't rust the way steel would.
Well - angle grinder with wire brush on heavy metal pieces is ADDICTING! Some touch up where the brush did not get to real well is needed. There was that blue paint in most places. Rest of the small pieces header for vinegar soak.
The bind causing the seizure was some fine rust just past the void in the casting for the fixed jaw. While it all moves fine now - needs some TLC with more 220 grit paper on a stick.
The bind causing the seizure was some fine rust just past the void in the casting for the fixed jaw. While it all moves fine now - needs some TLC with more 220 grit paper on a stick.
poppinjohnnies
Well-known member
That black vice looks identical to my old HF vice - chips and all!
Somewhat less stuck now. Waiting on horseshoe washer and new jaws. Went with blue as I am sure it was blue to start with - maybe a bit darker - but blue.
Update 8-10-2017 - Well - found a pic which changes my conclusion - but still keeping it blue! Overlooked this one showing blue on swivel lock. CR*P!
Update 8-10-2017 - Well - found a pic which changes my conclusion - but still keeping it blue! Overlooked this one showing blue on swivel lock. CR*P!
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rlitman
Well-known member
WOW is that baby blue!
Shiftless
Well-known member
"Your vise, your color"
But for historical reference, I would say that from my experience, the hospital green paint fragment seen on the square portion of that lockdown and your post 53 pic, might be the closest to the color of the 1940's bullets.
But for historical reference, I would say that from my experience, the hospital green paint fragment seen on the square portion of that lockdown and your post 53 pic, might be the closest to the color of the 1940's bullets.
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Yep - that is where I started and had already made my mind up for "Hammered Verde Green". Then I pondered the pic below - clearly the green and red in the holes with the swivel lock - and no blue - which sold me on "blue". Guess it was too easy - and missed the one with the blue on the swivel lock.
Not at ll sure what it means - seems the vise has therefore been painted three times since it left the factory - blue, ooky green and red. Blue more carefully than the green and red maybe! I'll go out on a limb and say the first repaint was matching the original - that is why I'm still with "Blue" - and it different enough to make me smile.
Lots more pics here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/46064258@N08/albums/72157684394529983
I just finished painting my Wilton #6 and I found the blue color on your swivel lock on mine also, but it had been painted over a gray/blue that I found in hard to reach places. I painted mine Rust-oleum Hammered Light Blue which is close to what was there. Bottom line I am happy with it and it will be a joy to use. Nice job on getting this one back in service!
Here is mine, just waiting a week for the paint to cure before I put it all back together.
The swivel base:
Here is mine, just waiting a week for the paint to cure before I put it all back together.
The swivel base:
Shiftless
Well-known member
Chiz:
Beautiful blue color!
That is certainly a big boy and a great example of the earliest 6 inchers' jaw attachment method. No bolt in from the back of the jaws.
Beautiful blue color!
That is certainly a big boy and a great example of the earliest 6 inchers' jaw attachment method. No bolt in from the back of the jaws.
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Thanks, My sons thought I should go with the Rust-oleum Verde Green... They got out voted.
Coming Along - Waiting on new inserts, swivel lock bars and horseshoe washer. Interesting to note the existing washer has been eroded/abraded significantly on BOTH sides (assuming it was flipped along the way), and has nice newer countersunk cap screws by PO. The take-up slack in the screw has been reduced from about 180 degrees to 90 degrees.
Blue Vises do stand apart!
Blue Vises do stand apart!
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WooHoo - Resto done, now need to make space on the workbench and install! New (Thanks Kevin!) jaw inserts, horseshoe washer and swivel lock handles. Thanks GJ!!
Lots of pics here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/46064258@N08/albums/72157684394529983/
Disassemble
side view
jaws
"Pat Pen" notch
Lots of pics here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/46064258@N08/albums/72157684394529983/
Disassemble
side view
jaws
"Pat Pen" notch
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"Pat Pen" notch
Not all the Pat Pen models have that notch. There have been recent vises posted with and without the notch, and both had Pat Pen on them. In fact, one in this thread is like that.
It's not exactly proof at this point, but it seems the slightly older versions that have "Made in USA" rather than just "USA" don't have the notch, but both have Pat Pen on them.
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KMScott
Well-known member
I cleaned up the lock downs for mgmlvks and this is the first time I have seen such a small body used with the hex. It is a great idea that might make swivel clamps used on the first generation Wilton's with the notch.
Nice job on your restore mgmlvks, how did you come up with the color? Those straight serrations are tough to cut, have to get it exact or it shows up. The 30 degree serrations do not have to be perfect.
Nice job on your restore mgmlvks, how did you come up with the color? Those straight serrations are tough to cut, have to get it exact or it shows up. The 30 degree serrations do not have to be perfect.
The serrations are a joy to behold - almost do not want ti use them! As for the color - I originally thought some sort of hammered green/black/etc., but it was suggested that those would not necessarily be "period", and I did not want gray, so based on the study of the paint layers (typical below) I thought I would be a little bit different and go with Blue - it is a decent color match - but probably not an original color - might be a "First Owner" color?
Mike
KMScott
Well-known member
Yes Mike, my thought is the green is more of that period color. You did good on your choice.
Super Sport
Well-known member
Nice work on the vise OP!
To save me some research, which swivel locks did you purchase? My No. 4 only has bolts in the location of the locks. I'd post up some pictures of mine, but it appears I must have deleted what I had taken.
To save me some research, which swivel locks did you purchase? My No. 4 only has bolts in the location of the locks. I'd post up some pictures of mine, but it appears I must have deleted what I had taken.
Thanks! These are the swivel locks that were on it, and one handle was missing. They both appear to be original to the vise. The handle was bent (and they are pretty soft to start with). Ordered some parts from Kevin Scott, and he offered to put new handles on them.
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You may be right about that. Certainly the notch takes up space that would mean less for lettering. There are so many old variations out there they start to run together after a while. I thought I'd seen one with the Made in USA and a notch, but I might be mistaken.
I do know that there are other models without the Pat Pen, or Pat Pend that have a notch either very similar, if not identical, to yours...and some were quite new. I've had a couple of newer (1970s to 80s) C0s that had a squarish notch rather than the round dimple. Why they would change back and forth, I can't even begin to guess!