Wilton Vise: Major Surgery

[paroxysm]

Five years ago "I bought the farm." It all sorts of intriguing out buildings with promise of buried treasure. In the end I sent thousands of pounds of scrap metal to the recycler. One item I couldn't part with was an enormous bench vise. If I have any capability it is in wood. Of metal work, machining and vises I know little.

Yesterday I decided to bring it in from the barn and see what could be done to make it functional again. After some Googling around, I now understand that a Wilton is. A picture is worth a thousand words so here's the problem...

Markings: D2180, 100187,101158 [The last number at Grainger is associated with the 400s]

IS THERE ANY HOPE?

My first observation is that the break is very precise and the parts "lock together." After cleaning it up, the action is still very smooth and tolerances are good.

I thought of JB Weld. Before you laugh, the surface area of the break must be several square inches. At 1800 psi, J B might add up. I don't expect it to be the 10,000 psi of new, but could it be useable?

What about brazing?

Other ideas? Scrap?

 

[Professur]

You said it yourself, you're a woodworker. This requires someone who knows metal. first off, a dip in an electrolyte bath is needed to clean off the rust. Then, a grind a bevel along the edge of the break, bake it for an hour at 400 in the oven to pre-heat and stick weld that puppy back together with a nickle rod. Then find a steel ring to fit tight around the neck between the jaws where all the strain happens. You'd want to heat that ring up cherry red, then drop it over the neck. when it cools, it'll shrink and hold that sucker solid.

Could you JB weld it , possibly ... but why would you want to half *** a job like that?

 

[mrpowderkeg]

I'm all for saving old tools but that one is junk. You could weld it, if you have the means to do it. If you had to pay someone to weld it for you, you might be laughed at, and in the end after welding, it may be distorted enough where it won't slide properly anymore, it would take further machining to correct that if it did warp.

Or you could do a jb weld test... and see how much clamping it could do before it broke.

 

[spongerich]

It's dead Jim.


I wouldn't spend the money to have it welded. Give it a dunk in an electrolysis tank to remove all of the rust, JB Weld it, and use it until it breaks.

Plan "B" might be to JB Weld it, paint it a funky color and use it as garage sculpture rather than an actual working tool.

OTOH, given the ridiculous amount of money that they go for on eBay, you might just do a JB Weld repair and sell it for $50... as long as you're honest about the repair, that could be your best bet.

 

[mooman]

Sorry for your loss.

 

[rhastings80]

I would take the good parts and offer them up for sale here in the classifieds section or Ebay. The other parts are worth money but as a whole your vise is dead. sorry.

the end cap, acme thread, jaws, center spindle are all worth something as these replacement parts are not cheap and hard to find.

How do you think that broke in the first place?

 

[spongerich]

How do you think that broke in the first place?

Those things are pretty stout. I'd have to go with "Stepped on by a brontosaurus"

 

[paroxysm]

rhastings80,
My guess from the bent handle is that it was whacked with a sledge hammer. Based on all the other **** that was laying about I"m surprised they had such a nice vise in the first place. Or maybe they got if free already broken. So close to finding something interesting, but then it's like the joke about the economist out for a walk with a friend. He spies a $10 bill, but doesn't pick it up. When asked why, he says, "if it were really a $10 bill someone would have picked it up already.

 

[Slip_Kid]

Sell it for parts and purchase another vise if needed. I would not repair it, it's too far gone.

 

[Dale B]

If you are going to use it only for woodworking , I'm sure the JB weld would be plenty strong....

 

[rhastings80]

Although if doesn't hold and they dynamic jaw falls on your foot it isn't going to be fun...

If you are going to use it only for woodworking , I'm sure the JB weld would be plenty strong....

 

[rsanter]

I would be tempted to try a silver solder repair

if you have a welder or know someone that does (and is a good welder)
they way I have repaired cast iron before is to clean it up, put it in the BBQ and get that thing nice and hot. leave it there long enough for the metal to completly soalk up the heat and then you take a torch to the area to be welded and add some more heat (BBQs only get so hot afterall). then I have used a MIG to do the welding. take the torch to the weld area to help normalize the weld and then leave it back in the BBQ for an hour or so. turn the BBQ off and then let it sit in there until cool

bob

 

[mjozefow]

Sorry, she's dead man. It would not be worth the expense of trouble to have it properly repaired.

Even then, it would never be as strong as it once was.

 

[mjozefow]

Even better idea:

Sell the PARTS in the classifieds here or on eBay. There is a huge shortage and Wilton rapes you on used parts.

 

[v7guy]

I'd be inclined to "repair" through the means mentioned here. heat her up, weld her, re-machine the interior if necessary, this route becomes more attractive if you have friends that can help you out. It'll never be "solid" again, but it could be nice for lighter duty.

With that said I'm a bit of a sucker for "lost causes" and it would make a damn fine thread.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

As someone noted, sell it for the usefulness of the moving jaw and the screw, to use as repair parts for a luckier Wilton vise.

Charles

 

[mrholeshot]

I'd put a bevel cut about 3/4 the distance of the break on both sides, Pre-heat it and weld it. Many times the weld can be stonger than the Iron of the vise. Back in the day when most people had a water pump instead of city water. The pumps would freeze and break. We would weld them and the next time they would break in a differant place. We did a lot of water pump repairs back in the 60's.

 

[george4]

I'd put a bevel cut about 3/4 the distance of the break on both sides, Pre-heat it and weld it.

Why 3/4 and not 100%? What process would you use?

 

[autopts71045]

Its a junker..Its not a one of a kind and like mjozefow suggested, Sell the parts. Wilton gas already discontinued that back cap that holds the threaded assy. Its inclosed in their new vises.

 

[Brad54]

I know a guy who Tig welds cast iron engine blocks with specially made cast iron sticks. He bevels the crack, then tig welds for an inch and hammers the weld with a pick hammer until it is cool enough to touch, then moves on to the next inch.
These are 409 blocks, and they get beat on afterwards.
In his experience (and it's really unmatched), heating the metal (block) in an oven prior to welding changes the metallurgy and the iron isn't as strong--bolt threads are prone to tearing out, etc.

I know another guy who uses a particular formula of Mig wire to weld axle tubes to cast-iron center sections in drag cars, rock crawlers, etc.

Using "regular" wire as filler, the filler cools at a different rate than both the cast and mild steel axle tubes. As the metals cool at different rates, you can hear a loud "TINK!" as the weld cracks. With the wire he uses, the molecules of the filler keep flowing and moving as the welds cool, resulting in a fully welded seam that doesn't crack.

He's done it for 40 years, and never has a problem.

If you can call a welding supply shop and find out what Mig wire they'd recommend for welding cast iron, that might do it. My buddy said the wire is VERY expensive though. Not sure how small a roll you can buy, but even a big roll would be worth it to repair a Wilton vise.

-Brad

 

[DHS]

Id clean her up and braze her up. I will PM you a link to another site where Goodfellow did an excellent repair not so different to yours. ( I think his was in worse spot)

 

[cnc-me]

1. Clean all the crud off.
2. Tack weld with welder to hold parts together temporarily.
3. Vee out with angle grinder being careful not to remove the tack welds.
4. Pre-heat in oven or BBQ.
5. Braze with torch.
6. Wrap in fiberglass insulation and let set overnight.

I have fixed lots of castings like this never had a problem with any of them.

 

[A_Pmech]

That's an easy brazed repair as the parts fit precisely back together. So long as the work is done properly, the vise will be as strong as it was when new.

1) Build a pile of dry wood sufficient to produce an ember pile large enough to bury the vise in.

2) Put the de-rusted and assembled broken casting in the pile of wood and cover the broken section with a piece of bent sheet metal.

3) Light the fire.

4) Allow the fire to burn to embers.

5) Uncover the top side of the vise.

6) Come in with a torch and braze away. The part is a perfect candidate for brazing as both pieces lock together. Be sure to use a brazing alloy specifically designed for narrow gaps.

7) Cover the brazed assembly with the embers.

8) Walk away and wait 24 hours for everything to cool.

9) File out the interior of the bore as necessary to remove brazing alloy that dripped inside.

10) Re paint and enjoy your rebuilt vise.

 

[paroxysm]

First off, thanks for the animated discussion. I love restoring stuff, so my default inclination is to give 'er a go and see what can be done.

In the debate over welding v. brazing, I like the idea of brazing, but thus far I've only been able to find people who would weld it with iron rod (everyone agrees the parts need to be preheated first).

Anyone know of a skilled brazer in the Portland, Oregon area, let me know.

The quote so far is $150 to $250 to weld it.

I've started cleaning her up and she's looking good.

Comments welcome.

PS. Don't let my girlfriend read this. If she finds out I'm off chasing another windmill I'm toast.

 

[spongerich]

Investing $250 or even $150 in that vise seems like a loser to me. You'll end up with a 'maybe' compromised vise for the same cost as getting one that's perfect.

To me, your best options are to part it out and replace it or JB Weld it, use it till it breaks, and then part it out.

 

[mjozefow]

Send it to A_Pmech. I want to see this process in person.

 

[Davefr]

$150-250 is too high and not worth it. Just keep asking around and you might stumble on someone that'll do it cheaper.

Have you tried the services section of Portland Craig's List. With the terrible local economy and high unemployment you'll likely find someone to do it cheaper.

 

[paroxysm]

This seems like the general approach to fixing cast iron taken to the limit.

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Also the following companies claim to make welding or brazing rod that is better for cast iron. True or snake oil?

HTS-528 is thin flowing for close-fit joining and repairs on all cast iron, steel, copper, bronze, nickel, and brass.


The quest continues.

Muggy weld: "In the past, cast iron was always difficult to repair: heat the part slowly in an oven, make the weld with a nickel rod, slowly cool the part in an oven--and hope the cast iron would not recrack (it frequently did). Most welders wouldn't even attempt to weld cast iron due to the tempermental nature of such repairs. Fortunately, times have changed. Muggy Weld offers two solutions for cast iron repair: arc electrodes and gas torch rods."

 

[paroxysm]

For those of you wondering, "what ever happened to that cracked Wilton 400?" here is your answer. She's back in service and recovering nicely. She has a big scar, but wears it with pride. Thanks to Davefr who suggested Portland Craigslist. Through it I found Jim W. Fox (the "W" stands for Wilton [no, just kidding]). He is owner of a blacksmith forge company named Thermal Artist

He bravely took up the call. I believe he TIG welded it with silicone bronze. You will notice a collar around the body as the Professur suggested. The weld is clean, the action is smooth (only binding up slightly at full close).

Jim also fabricated the new handle to my spec. One end is retained by a countersunk socket screw and is removeable. Based on comments in these forums I made the handle slightly longer than the original.

The jaws were soaked in weak acid for 4 weeks (I ended up being away for longer than expected). I then painted them with Krylon Silver Metal. The body is painted Krylon Italian Olive. The screw is lubricated with EP grease and the sliding parts with teflon.

I'm into this for $105 bucks and a pretty happy camper.

 

[back2class]

I am glad you enjoy projects, but I wouldn't use it very hard. I sold a bigger wilton for $110 a few months back and think you could have gotten an intact one just like it on ebay for that price delivered. Thanks for the update though.

 

[whelenfan]

That looks really great, congrats on saving that unit!

 

[autopts71045]

I'm game to buy the handle assy if its reasonable. P.M. me.

 

[thesilverone]

congrats on bringing her back to life

 

[Catamount]

I am glad you enjoy projects, but I wouldn't use it very hard. I sold a bigger wilton for $110 a few months back and think you could have gotten an intact one just like it on ebay for that price delivered. Thanks for the update though.

I've never understood the desire to come into a thread to add only negative comments.

 

[back2class]

I've never understood the desire to come into a thread to add only negative comments.

The man posted on a public forum looking for feedback. He now has an unsafe tool that he has more $ into than he could have purchased an intact one for. I gave him feedback and I believe he is mature enough to here pros and cons in the feedback. Perhaps another member will make a more informed choice after reading this post then just a bunc of guys stroking the OP's ego.

 

[Bruce Lancaster]

I'd like to add something to A Pmech's post, for future iron fixers...there was an article in Rod and Custom magazine, roughly 1954, about a maniac who decided to build a six-cylinder Model T Ford. He cut up about 3 blocks to get the pieces he wanted, and a similar stack of cranks and cams...the shafting was fairly easy, though it obviously required a LOT of welds in the forgings (think about going from 90 degree based stuff to 60 degree based stuff...hurts MY head.) but obviously the block was the biggy.
After lots of cutting and grinding and V-ing, the guy located and aligned his sections on channel irons, then he built a simple furnace around the whole thing from fire brick... cheap and neatly stackable and made for lots of heat. He heated the castings to something scary, did his welding bit by bit through gaps made by removing bricks, and then closed up his last openings and just left'er to cook until the fires went out and everything slowly cooled down. I have heard the the 6 cylinder T still exists and still runs. Now THAT is a welder.
Crazy, though.

 

[Davefr]

The man posted on a public forum looking for feedback. He now has an unsafe tool.

Unsafe??? You really think so???

I studied the repair and don't see any likely scenario where the user could be in harms way in the event of a complete failure of the weld. If the joint fails under high compression of the jaws it would pull up on the front of the rear jaw piece but the collar would prevent this. (smart thing that the welder/fabricator did).

This vise is probably safer then a new vise which could fail from a casting defect.

However I probably wouldn't have extended the length of the handle. The handle length is part of the design to limit forces.

 

[pfbz]

Pretty impressive repair...

I don't think I could find somebody local to do that job... -and fabricate a handle- for anywhere near what you paid if you are all-in at $105.

Just finished restoring my own 4-1/2" Wilton bullet machinist 9450. Extremely satisfying to take an older greasy, rusty, lump of vise and returning it to better-than-new condition.

 

[Catamount]

The man posted on a public forum looking for feedback. He now has an unsafe tool that he has more $ into than he could have purchased an intact one for. I gave him feedback and I believe he is mature enough to here pros and cons in the feedback. Perhaps another member will make a more informed choice after reading this post then just a bunc of guys stroking the OP's ego.

Perhaps it has some sentimental value for him? I remember you posting about rebuilding your barn. It would've probably been cheaper to level it and build new, but you wanted to keep the character.

Apply the same logic here.

I would like you to go into detail about what you think is unsafe, as I'm considering having a vise repaired as well.

It's not like the OP consulted an inexperienced guy with a welding gun. He man who did the repair owns a blacksmith forge!

 

[back2class]

Perhaps it has some sentimental value for him? I remember you posting about rebuilding your barn. It would've probably been cheaper to level it and build new, but you wanted to keep the character.

Apply the same logic here.

I would like you to go into detail about what you think is unsafe, as I'm considering having a vise repaired as well.

It's not like the OP consulted an inexperienced guy with a welding gun. He man who did the repair owns a blacksmith forge!

Well I view tools as items to get jobs done and this site an extension of such manly things. I did not think people would get feelings hurt giving thoughts on the results of a repair. Guess I was worng. It is not like I am insulting some womans quilt they made. It is an old tool that most agree should have been let go. I am just a little gun-shy after having a friend break foot badly from a vise the broke.
I am suprised you recall the bard conversion. Still have not done it, but plan to quite soon. The idea to convert was simply economic, though I did wan to preserve the astetics on it.