Winchester Tools

[woody 73]

In a strange way I never heard many posts on the GJ about Winchester tools; and always in the back of my mind I so wanted to do a story about them. Turns out today was my lucky day! After a dry spell of looking for all these many years I happened to walk in a garage sale and I picked up a very beaten vintage pair of pliers and low and behold it was a Winchester brand.

Now before you ask how much, well truth be known I have no idea because the nice lady only wanted $5.00 dollars for all the rusty junk in my hand, so I am guessing that pliers must have been well under $1.00 dollar. They are not in the best of shape having seen better days at least 95 years ago.

Some of you might be asking what makes them so special and in a few words, they were not made for many years and when you also put into the equation not only tool collectors wanting them, but also Winchester gun collectors wanting them, then all hell brakes loose as they say.

Then on top of that GJ members will post items like "is my snap on fake"? " Is my Mac fake"', you get the idea and 99% of the time the answer is no. On the other hand Winchester tools are counterfeited because of all the high dollars at stake. Remember low supply (short time period), not one but two or three groups like knife collectors also vie for the brand.

In trying to keep the story as short as possible (it has been some time from my last story), Winchester was founded in 1866 by Oliver Winchester the gun maker; (be sure and read the links for more about his company).

Now Oliver shared a common history with Simmons Hardware Co. and after the first World War it would seem that the Winchester Co. borrowed a lot of money in order to finance a larger expansion so they started making consumer goods in order to get more money into their books. They merged with Simmons starting in 1922 until 1929. They separated and Winchester returned to their core business but alas the great depression in 29 hurt them very bad. Please be sure and look over the links because it talks about when Oliver was born and pictures of fake Winchester tools.

I so hope you enjoy the story, the links and the few pictures of that small Winchester pliers on this nice Friday afternoon.


https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Winchester-Tools-fake-and-forged-marks-mismatched-pieces

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/rose-tools-catalog-archives/pdfs/winchester-1923-catalog.pdf

https://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/02/21/winchester-planes-2/

http://www.thckk.org/history/win-sim.pdf

http://www.thckk.org/history/win-sim.pdf

http://www.thckk.org/history/win-hardware.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Repeating_Arms_Company

https://archive.org/details/WinchesterPocketCatalogOfTools1923

https://archive.org/details/WinchesterRepeatingArmsCo1920

https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/catalog/winchester

 

[d42jeep]

Woody,
Thanks for the write up on Winchester tools. Very interesting reading. I found this screwdriver at an estate sale back in May and it looks authentic to me.
-Don

 

[MR.X]

A big reason Winchester wrenches are/were counterfeited is because being such unremarkable tools they are easy to counterfeit. Additionally, there's a good chance that the counterfeited wrench is of at least as high of quality if not greater than the wrench it is pretending to be.

 

[RubiconJK]

Oh great, something else to keep my eye open for! Thanks a lot Woody! Seriously, thanks for the history.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

They merged with Simmons starting in 1922 until 1929. They separated and Winchester returned to their core business but alas the great depression in 29 hurt them very bad.

It hurt them worse than it would've if they had stuck to their guns, and I mean that quite literally, instead of growing big Sears, Roebuck copycat eyes. One of the cool things about the merger with Simmons is Simmons giving the electric font look to their "Keen Kutter" brand during those years, borrowed from the electric font on the "Winchester" brand. I'll see if I can find some examples later. Simmons ended up fire sale-ing the entire business to Shapleigh.

In a strange way I never heard many posts on the GJ about Winchester tools

HeelSpur started a Winchester thread a few years ago, linked here, but you know how this forum goes, hardly anyone searches for old threads before they post, and even I forget to do so from time to time. His fell prey to the dreaded page 2 and then the Great Photobucket Phiasco of 2016.

LesserSon has posted a Winchester DOE wrench on the DOE wrench thread, here.

Notlob collects Winchester and Keen Kutter, and posted a link to a few of his tools here.

I posted a Winchester axe on the axe thread, here, and a Winchester monkey wrench on another earlier shortlived Winchester thread, here.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Family portrait opportunity. The single hand axe (not sure of the OEM) is a 2-lber, and the monkey wrench (perhaps a Coes, if I had to guess) is a 12-incher.

 

[woody 73]

Private yes as I said earlier I was well aware of all those old posts but no one ever told the whole story and it was my chance to write that story. Keep in mind I wanted to write that story many years ago long before those other posters but I only found the tool in question the day I wrote the story. Since I do not use the E-bay I must hunt for it the slow way not like buying sets like some of you guys do on the E-bay.

I also have other stories but, (always a but) I still need to find examples of the missing tools in question.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It wasn't a criticism, Woody, and there is no need to defend your motivation or your tool shopping habits. (By the way, you're not the only who mainly still hunts for old tools in the wild here. Plenty of us still prefer it.) There is also no need to claim that your desire to post some information that you have read elsewhere about Winchester tools precedes the older Winchester threads I have posted links to. What does that matter? As far as I know, there's no competition going on here for who had or "knew" about a certain brand of tools first. I was just expanding on some of your information, and adding the links to a few older Winchester threads, just like you do when someone starts a thread on a subject for which you have already started a thread.

Happy hunting! And keep up the good work. Like many of us here, I appreciate the history behind the tools that many of us like to research and post.

 

[HeelSpur]

Here's an 18" Winchester pipe wrench.

DSCF2383 by wvwheaties, on Flickr
DSCF2384 by wvwheaties, on Flickr
DSCF2385 by wvwheaties, on Flickr
DSCF2386 by wvwheaties, on Flickr

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That's in great condition.

 

[Mintgrun]

This hammer caught my eye, due to the thickness of the head where the handle goes through.

The logo is pretty beat up and I'd thought maybe it said "WORCHESTER" but after a bit of Googling around yesterday, I now think it says WINCHESTER. There are photos of a very similar hammer on Worthpoint.


This photo shows the difference when compared to typical hammer shapes.


Here it is with the rest of the family... just for fun.




Tom

 

[woody 73]

Mintgrun Very nice.

Just this week I picked up the same screwdriver pictured above, but alas the poor thing looked like it went through a woodchipper at some point in it's life and I passed on buying it.

 

[thehorse13]

Urgh...

I'm one of the people who still must hunt in the wild because that's the real enjoyment. Over the years, I've left a lot of Winchester tools behind completely unaware that there was significant demand for them. As already noted, they didn't appear to be anything special or of particularly high quality. In my mind, this must have been an early version of what Snap-On did by licensing their name out for any kind of product.

What's curious to me is that if there is such a high demand, why haven't we seen a surge in, "What's my Winchester tools worth?" single poster threads?

 

[RTM]

I dunno. On the WW side, the surge was 15+ years ago. Was seeing lots of them for sale on EBay, at the flea markets, etc. nowadays, not so much. I have a few, and except for the name, nothing special. If a good price, I picked up as a user.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Over the years, I've left a lot of Winchester tools behind completely unaware that there was significant demand for them. As already noted, they didn't appear to be anything special or of particularly high quality.

Are Buffum (pre-war ******** logo) tools coveted for their quality? Do people collect Mephisto tools for their workmanship? How about Belknap 'Bluegrass' tools? Except for some early cutlery, they were all knock-offs made by OEMs, including the highly sought-after mechanics tools. Sometimes it's all quite literally in the name. And with a name as big and iconic and American as apple pie and Chevrolet, the popularity of Winchester tools as a collectible was inevitable. It never was an astronomically high end market, and still isn't.

What's curious to me is that if there is such a high demand, why haven't we seen a surge in, "What's my Winchester tools worth?" single poster threads?

What RTM said. It's not a recent or new trend. Winchester was a first wave collectible brand, with brands like Keen-Kutter and Our Very Best. Catalog brands. House brands. Rural brands. Collected and traded by overalled gentlemen wrenchers in person at auctions and barn sales on Saturday mornings. As that group has passed away only a small part of the market was passed along to second and third digital waves. It will show up an Wrenching News auctions when someone sells grandpa's collection, in dribs and drabs on eBay, and in the occasional GJ query. Also, it's not that commonly found.

/// BREAK ///

I picked up some nippers last year and posted an update to my very meager collection on my Lugzsonian thread, but here they are again.

 

[thehorse13]

Are Buffum (pre-war ******** logo) tools coveted for their quality? Do people collect Mephisto tools for their workmanship? How about Belknap 'Bluegrass' tools? Except for some early cutlery, they were all knock-offs made by OEMs, including the highly sought-after mechanics tools. Sometimes it's all quite literally in the name. And with a name as big and iconic and American as apple pie and Chevrolet, the popularity of Winchester tools as a collectible was inevitable. It never was an astronomically high end market, and still isn't.


What RTM said. It's not a recent or new trend. Winchester was a first wave collectible brand, with brands like Keen-Kutter and Our Very Best. Catalog brands. House brands. Rural brands. Collected and traded by overalled gentlemen wrenchers in person at auctions and barn sales on Saturday mornings. As that group has passed away only a small part of the market was passed along to second and third digital waves. It will show up an Wrenching News auctions when someone sells grandpa's collection, in dribs and drabs on eBay, and in the occasional GJ query. Also, it's not that commonly found.

/// BREAK ///

I picked up some nippers last year and posted an update to my very meager collection on my Lugzsonian thread, but here they are again.

Yea, I get why people buy stuff, especially when it comes to the name. If I have no idea, my fallback is always inspecting the workmanship/quality aspects. This is another example of when that approach doesn't work.

Maybe I will turn some up this season if things get somewhat back to normal. I always need new ways to fund my Blackhawk/Plomb/Pre war Craftsman addiction.

 

[Mintgrun]

The 1923 catalog that Woody shared in the first post has a very nice description of their screwdrivers. I learned that I have one of their "Mechanics' Special" pattern (2nd from left) with the blade that runs through the handle. (Like on the Stanley Hurwood flat blade models).




The "lug and notch" screwdrivers seem like very high quality tools to me. The one at the bottom of the photo was the first WINCHESTER tool I found, around thirty years ago. That one says "Pat. Appl'd for", so it may be the oldest of the bunch. It is also in the best condition. I believe it is their "Cabinet Champion Pattern".




The three black handled ones are not WINCHESTER , but have a similarly shaped handle; so I included them in the photos.

The one with a bare wood handle and the one above that are both marked CHAMPION on the shank, but do not say WINCHESTER. There are several CHAMPION screwdrivers on EbAY right now.



I have two of their "Household" screw drivers that lack the lug and notch feature and the blades are not the chrome-steel. The ferrule had come loose and the blades were bent on both of those; which reflects the "lack of quality" mentioned above.



I think you'd be hard pressed to find a nicer quality screwdriver than any of their lug and notch models... whether they're marked WINCHESTER, or CHAMPION.

I like that the grips on Woody's pliers resemble the checkering on rifle stocks. Seems fitting for WINCHESTER tools.

Tom

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'd go very deep into my pockets for the brass ferrule Winnies if I ever ran into one at a flea, Tom. Very nice.

 

[d42jeep]

I found my second one at a tool sale last November. I forgot to post it in this thread.
-Don

 

[Norcal]

How many firearms manufacturers were involved in products outside their normal products? Winchester tools, Colt made electrical equipment, and commercial dish machines.

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/152381/45_Caliber_Dishwasher.html

 

[Mark914]

maybe not your traditional Winchester tools, But i do have these old brass / copper ? hammer heads. They are marked W.R.A with a number on the reverse side. disregard the handle, i just stuck it on something.

I live in the New Haven area, and picked these at an estate sale a few years ago. the estate had a lot of Winchester memorabilia, perhaps the guy worked there and these were used in production ??

i was unaware of the Winchester tool market, i would have dug around a lot more !

 

[d42jeep]

I found my third Winchester tool at an estate sale today. -Don

 

[park city flyer]

How many firearms manufacturers were involved in products outside their normal products? Winchester tools, Colt made electrical equipment, and commercial dish machines.

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/152381/45_Caliber_Dishwasher.html

Winchester made ice skates, knives, wood planes, flashlights, and sporting goods.

Remington Arms made pocket knives at their Bridgeport, Conn. plant between WW1 and WW2. My Dad and one of his brothers worked at the plant, and told me that these and other non-gun products were made to keep the company's skilled craftsmen employed during the Depression. I assume Winchester got involved in these sidelines for similar reasons.

Tom

 

[bmwrd0]

LC Smith and Remington made type writers, BSA made bicycles and Motorcycles, and I am sure there are many others around the world. Part of it that when the depression hit, or in BSA's case when the Boer war ended, there was so much spare capacity in these companies manufacturing lines that they took on a whole host of differnt projects just to see what sticked.

And in WWII, it flipped. Which is why you can find IBM carbines and various other firearms made by companies who had the ability to manufacture and machine fairly preciss objects.

 

[crguy]

In my experience, mainly with planes & woodworking tools, the Winchester tool interest has faded drastically in recent years. They're just nothing special to most collectors, even gun collectors I know.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

My Dad and one of his brothers worked at the plant, and told me that these and other non-gun products were made to keep the company's skilled craftsmen employed during the Depression. I assume Winchester got involved in these sidelines for similar reasons.

Hi Tom. Not to cast any aspersions on your father or uncle, but note that Remington Cutlery was established in 1920. Before WWI, two countries dominated the knife market: England (Sheffield) and Germany (Solingen). In WWI, England lost its expertise - quite literally in action, and Germany lost its export customer base to resentment. Remington, fat with WWI cash, cleverly stepped into the abyss with Remington Cutlery. Their investment and truly innovative manufacturing processes allowed them to produce up to 10,000 high quality knives per day throughout the Roaring 20's, a full decade before the Great Depression struck. Perhaps it helped them somewhat with retention, but the economic effects were fairly widespread across products, so it was kind of hard for any company to avoid it in a zero sum game. They sold the division to PAL Cutlery just before WWII, as you mentioned.

Winchester is a much different story. They did not make knives, per se. In 1919, also fat with WWI cash, also well before the Great Depression, they bought out the Eagle Pocket Knife Company, which was also located in New Haven, including the plant, and all the employees. Winchester did not make most of the tools, housewares, and sporting goods that they sold through their mail order catalog and in a few of their retail stores, either. Essentially, Winchester attempted to 'Sears & Roebuck' themselves into a nationwide general store, literally banking on their name ("As Good As The Gun" was the slogan), and failed miserably. They went so far "all in" on this plan that they merged, in 1922, with one of Sears, Roebuck, & Co's competitors, E.C. Simmons. When everything crashed in 1929, they crashed with it. The partnership was dissolved in 1931, Winchester was sold, and the buyers re-concentrated on guns only. The popularity of the tools as collectibles, now in its second, very waning wave, is almost strictly a byproduct of the near-mythic "red-blooded" popularity of the firearms and the name and its legacy.

 

[ndnchf]

This thread reminded me of an old Winchester meat grinder I have. It must have been from their stint in the general merchandise business. It has the extra blades too and works well.

 

[steaks&anvils]

This thread reminded me of an old Winchester meat grinder I have. It must have been from their stint in the general merchandise business. It has the extra blades too and works well.

My grinder is not a winchester, but it was my grandmothers and you are correct: it works BETTER than well, it's GREAT!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It must have been from their stint in the general merchandise business.

Definitely. And a great example of how they could just third part their name onto contracted production.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...it was my grandmothers...

That's exactly where my mind went! Looking at hand grinders simultaneously gives me nostalgia, hunger, and a sore young arm! My grandmother made her own sausage, which, in Slovak, was called hurka. That "r" is rolled in Slovak and many other Eastern European languages, which is hard to describe, but pronounced almost like WHO-ter-ka. As she got older when we came along, one of our jobs was to grind. It was an all day affair, usually on a Saturday. She was quite a lady. Small, almost troll-like, and very dark, but fierce in everything, love and, er, um, values. Even though they lived right in town, in a half-double, long before we came along people were allowed to keep chickens and small livestock in the backyard. And she did all her own butchering. I still remember the look on her face - some kind of ancient ancestral Carpathian hunter-gatherers glee, when we brought her small game (rabbits and pheasant), which she would string up to clean and dress over a pipe in the basement!

 

[d42jeep]

I picked this rusty thing up at a yard sale on Saturday to use for parts on some other hacksaws. The combination handle/tensioners are hard to find. After it’s evaporust bath, I decided that it deserved to be left intact.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

If you mean you couldn't see the logo and you bought that to cannibalize, you are one lucky SOB!

 

[Mintgrun]

Funny that this thread got bumped today, since I just got home with another chubby ball peen hammer that is quite similar to the one I posted upstream. I cannot make out the name on this one, but couldn't resist buying it. I really like the plump mid section on these hammers. Tom











EDIT-- I found another hammer today and it is marked D. Maydole and that matches the faint lettering on this hammer. It is the same size and shape. So, maybe Maydole made the Winchester hammer too. (?)

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I snagged a pair of "S" wrenches at the flea this morning. Oddly, they were both the same size. One has a wonderful black rust-proofing finish, the other is natural steel (or perhaps it lost its black rust-proofing coat) showing some rust and wear and a barely legible logo. If anyone wants to try to restore it, let me know and it's yours for the cost of the ride.

You can see the pair of them together in the thumbnails below, but here is the keeper...




The 3/8" x 5/16" USS nut and bolt sizes correlate to 11/16" x 19/32" milled openings.

I don't recognize the No. 1522 model number. It's not a Williams/ISN for an 11/16" x 19/32" light service "S" wrench, which would be a a 79D. The "1522" is vaguely reminiscent of Billings & Spencer's system, before they succumbed to converting to the Williams/ISN system, but their 15xx wrenches were textile wrenches, and their 11/16" x 19/32" light service "S" wrench was a No. 2013.

 

[genog]

I have a Winchester hammer.
The markings are hard to read....

Didn't figure at all that the interest has been waning as I know a few ******** gun collectors who are still going after Winchester and Remington tools, etc
They buy it and are tickled pink finding it.
Not a surprise because Winchesters are their passion.
Maybe Fad Followers are the ones who are losing interest

 

[Nutria]

I posted shots that included this Winchester screwdriver over in the long screwdriver thread. It's a solid tool and is one of my go-tos. Woody, thanks for the history on these tools.

 

[d42jeep]

While cleaning out a cabinet in my basement, I found this rusty treasure wedged in a corner. It went into the evaporust for an overnight bath and I was surprised to see the markings after the cleanup.
-Don

 

[four.cycle]

^ was not aware they made files. interesting find for sure.

 

[RTM]

Like Sears, made, or put their name on?

Winchester Pocket Catalog of Tools 1923 : Winchester Repeating Arms Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

36 p., illus., 15.9 cm, trade catalog

archive.org

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I was surprised to see the markings after the cleanup.

Me too, especially because it's not the trademark. I have never seen a Winchester tool that did not have the 'fancy' (for wont of a better term) font. I wonder what the story is there.