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Window unit install in red iron shop

snrusnak

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Jul 22, 2015
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Hello, I recently installed a 22,000 btu window unit in my shop. I installed it through the wall as I don't have any windows. I have a 30x40 shop (1200 sf). The AC says it's for ~1500 sf but I know that's assuming a house (8' ceilings, good insulation, etc). In any case, my shop has thin metal R panel siding and roof with the super thin foil backed fiber insulation. Almost no insulation. I know this isn't optimal, and my peak is 12' tall. I mainly want to **** out some humidity to keep my equipment and tools from corroding, but thought it'd be nice to have some relatively cooler temps as well. I live on the gulf coast in MS, so in July/August it's only about 110 deg F with 90% humidity in there...

I will most often just set it at a relatively high temp just to control humidity, but now and then may kick it down lower especially when it's not so hot outside.

Anyway, my question is about the wiring. I already have 10 gauge wire run all the way to the unit basically. This wiring isn't being used for anything. The problem is I can't easily get it to the unit. There is a juntion box about 3 feet away that I could access to splice the wire and I already have 12 ga MC wire laying around. Is it OK to use 12 ga wire for a 20 amp outlet 20 amp breaker (that's what the manuf prescribes)? I can extend the 10ga if needed, it's just a PITA. I think 12ga is OK, but I'm just a little concerned as I think this unit may run more often than a normal install.

Thanks in advance for any help. I'm really excited to have less humidity and some cooler temps in my shop!
 
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EOC_Jason

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Yes, even if you leave it set on like 80F during the summer just the amount of moisture it pulls out of the air will really help things I'm sure.

Yes, 12 AWG is is what you use for a 20A breaker. (10 AWG is good for 30A)... That AC unit should only pull about 10A (assuming 230V)....
 
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snrusnak

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Thanks for the response! I'm excited to have this thing up and running this weekend.

I noticed that another set of wires that's run in the same conduit but feeds a 120v receptacle does not contain a ground.

Basically there are 5 wires (two 240v hots and a ground and a hot/neutral without a ground) run in one conduit to a junction box, then from the junction box the two 240v hots and a ground go to the AC receptacle and the hot/neutral without a ground go to the 120v receptacle. The 120v receptacle has a ground from the receptacle to the junction box but it is not connected to anything at the junction box, so I beleive I just need to tie the ground from the 120v and 240v receptacles together to the single ground wire running to the panel?

I'm pretty sure this is correct, just making sure. Don't want to run a ground 60 ft all the way to the panel.
 
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snrusnak

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I'm not sure what EMT is. I'll take a picture in a few to show you what I've got.

The conduit is the grey PVC type conduit. The junction is a metal box. The guy I bought the place from ran all this stuff and he is an electrician. I think most of the wiring in the shop was done with old mismatched and leftover parts. He has another "conduit" coming out of the junction box that is actually cpvc. I know him fairly well now and he's not one to cut corners so I'm surprised to find this outlet missing a ground.
 

cajunfirehawk

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Its funny you mentioned this, I just went out in our two car garage to help the wife bring in groceries which is attached to our house and is not insulated too. I also have a window until running in it for just the same reason you mentioned, it stays on like 78 degrees and it cost very lil to run during the season. I need to do the same in my metal building but it has NO insulation what so ever so until I can scrape together $5k for foam it will be sauna :FIREdevil
Good luck with your shop, I am on the gulf coast too in fact heading to Biloxi tonite to the hard rock :beer:
 

LXCam

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Also you do not need a dedicated ground. A ground can be shared with the size of the ground being dedicated by the size of the circuit servicing your load.
 
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snrusnak

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I just finished up. Here's some pictures. The junction box pictures, the top right is the supply and the bottom right is to the new air conditioner 240v receptacle. The two conduits on the left are nothing. The conduit that goes out the back/bottom of the junction box is to the 120v receptacle. I tied all three grounds together so I should be OK.

As you can see I decided to extend the 10ga wire in lieu of using the 12 ga MC I had laying around. It was a rainy day so I made a trip to the store just to get out of the house.

One last question: I didn't realize the wire that was already there was stranded, not solid. The connections at the screw terminals of the 240v receptacle are not great (due to the strands separating when tightening the screw). What should I do about this? I am thinking I can use wire nuts to tie the stranded wire to a short pigtail of solid wire that I can firmly attach to the receptacle.

I am also a terrible welder (self taught), but managed to make the AC shelf/support that you see in the pictures. The only thing left I need to do is cut some flat sheet to cover up all the flashing on the outside. Just waiting on it to stop raining, been raining now 7 days straight (ever since I cut the hole in the wall lol).

In any case, it turned out nice and works! It's been running about 45 minutes and already feels great.
 

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EOC_Jason

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One last question: I didn't realize the wire that was already there was stranded, not solid. The connections at the screw terminals of the 240v receptacle are not great (due to the strands separating when tightening the screw). What should I do about this? I am thinking I can use wire nuts to tie the stranded wire to a short pigtail of solid wire that I can firmly attach to the receptacle.

Yes, you could use a pigtail with a solid piece of wire if you wanted.

Does the receptacle only have a screw, or does it have a plate / pad in there that can sandwich the wire?

You can use a spade connector if you have one proper size.

I've heard you could twist the wire CCW then wrap (CW) around the screw and it helps keep the wire from separating.

Probably too late now, but if you leave a bit of the plastic sheathing on the end of the wire (instead of pulling off all the way), wrap around the screw and tighten it, that too helps hold the wire in place.
 
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snrusnak

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Thanks for the tips. There is no plate, just a screw. I'll try leaving some sheathing on (I left plenty of extra wire in the box). If that doesn't work I'll do a pigtail.

The shop is nice and frosty :)
 
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snrusnak

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All done! The trick keeping some sheathing on the wire helped but I still wasn't very happy with it so I made a pig tail with solid wire. Got the new breaker in and got everything finished up. I spray foamed (expandable foam) the gaps at the peaks and corners up top on the building, and am getting a brush seal for the roll up door header next week (had to order it).

Attached are a couple pictures of the final product. I'm not the best metal worker but it turned out looking decent. The goal was waterproof and it definitely is that. It rained 8 days straight before I even got that top layer of sheet metal on and didn't leak a drip.

I want to test out a water system on the roof to cool the roof and reduce heat load so the AC won't work so hard. Anyone have experience with this? I'm thinking about using a thermostat (like for an attic fan control) at the peak of the roof (inside, of course), and have it operate a solenoid valve on the water line. Then run a piece of perforated pvc downt the ridge line. I may have to put a regulator on the line to limit pressure.

Any thoughts appreciated.
 

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Fixin'Stuff

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I want to test out a water system on the roof to cool the roof and reduce heat load so the AC won't work so hard. Anyone have experience with this? I'm thinking about using a thermostat (like for an attic fan control) at the peak of the roof (inside, of course), and have it operate a solenoid valve on the water line. Then run a piece of perforated pvc downt the ridge line. I may have to put a regulator on the line to limit pressure.

Any thoughts appreciated.

This sounds like a perfect recipe for a really ugly roof. The minerals in the water will leave stains as the water evaporates. Depending on where you live, it can also lead to mildew, algae, and moss growing on the roof. :(
 

Falcon67

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This sounds like a perfect recipe for a really ugly roof. The minerals in the water will leave stains as the water evaporates. Depending on where you live, it can also lead to mildew, algae, and moss growing on the roof. :(

He's in MS on the coast - moss with grow on his stuff without any help at all LOL. In Houston, roofs get streaked by pine tar, moss and algea - people make a living with a truck, huge water tank with gosh knows what in it and a pressure washer, going around and blasting the crud off houses and driveways. I'm sure Mississippi is about the same.

Anyway, running water down the roof can't make things much worse than they'll get after a while anyway. What he really should be fighting is the RH. Not really the right type of building to do that, but is what is.
 
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snrusnak

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10-4, I appreciate the feedback. I understand the concerns, but I think I'm going to try it out and see if it works. I don't think any real degradation of the roof would occur, it's a metal roof, not shingle. I was thinking it might actually help by reducing the heating/cooling cycles to some extent. Mold/mildew is something I have to pressure wash every year or two here anyway. We'll see, it's worth a try.
 

junkyardwarrior

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I just stumbled on this thread doing a search, and your 30x40 stick built metal building is about like mine, and in similar area. Difference being that I have R22 in the walls and R8 on the ceiling/roof. How does your 22,000 btu unit work in your building? I called a guy out a while back and got a quote on a central unit, and could go either way. But I'm actually thinking about doing a through-the-wall unit such as you're describing. I don't use the building all that much but I work outside all day long and if/when I decide to use the building, I would like for it to be at least a little less humid inside, a few degrees cooler would be nice too. What about heat? How do you heat your building?
 
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snrusnak

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junkyardwarrior, the unit works pretty good. I've only had it about a month, but here's my review:

Pros:
Relatively easy install. I really took my time and did a lot of extra steps to ensure water tightness, but it turned out great. It's probably rained 20 of the last 30 days and not a drip inside the building. The unit is really heavy, about 160 lbs, and me and my brother struggled to lift it into the chassis above our heads. Just something to keep in mind.

For my red iron building with paper thin insulation, it's probably undersized. When I first installed it the temperature wasn't very high yet, maybe in the 80s at the peak of the day, and the building would pretty easily hold in the mid or high 70's (I never tried lower). The compressor would cycle periodically (I never timed it or paid close attention), but it seemed like very normal operation. Humidity was controlled good at daytime and got slightly high at nighttime due to the unit not running often at night.
Now that it is ridiculously hot, in the 90s and approaching 100 (July and August are brutal here), the unit will not maintain 70's while the sun is beating down on the building. Again, I've not payed real close attention to it, but I believe for the middle part of the day, when the sun is beating down on the building, the compressor is on basically all day and it will hold 80's. The humidity, of course, is under great control since it runs so much. It feels pretty comfortable.

Cons:
I did not realize the unit didn't have a programmable thermostat. So I either have to set it and forget it (and forget a low power bill), or constantly try to go down there a couple times a day to adjust it. I am on time of use billing, so between 3-6pm in the summertime I pay a lot more for electricity, I really wish I could shut the unit off at these hours. And wish I could lower the temp set point at night for more humidity control at night without it running non stop during the day.

I think that's the only con that I can think of right now...lol

With your well insulated building, I think the unit would work well. If you had an attic space that was insulated and vented it would probably work REALLY well. It all depends what you want. If you want a perfect 74 deg all the time this may not be for you. I installed this unit primarily for humidity control, as I used to go out to my shop and it would literally be wet inside. I wanted to save my tools/equipment. A bonus is a great improvement in comfort. I worked in my shop last July one day with 3' fans blowing on me, and it was in the 90's outside. The temp in the shop was about 110 and the humidity was 90+ %. Talk about uncomfortable. After working on the Jeep all day you'd thought I had just come out of a swimming pool. Now, I just spent the last 2 days working on cars in the shop and while the temp was in the 80s in there, the humidity was about 40-50%, and it was extremely comfortable. Yeah I broke a sweat, but I never felt "hot".

I spoke about my power bill above, this is going to vary, of course. I'm extremely lucky and have a ridiculously low power bill. If this wasn't the case, I may have been more concerned about the unit running all the time. Basically, I was expecting the performance I am getting. I figured from June through September the unit would run all day. You'd probably call me a liar if I told you what I pay a month for a 2,400 sf house that is all electric, plus I power my shop equipment on weekends and evenings, etc. My house is really well built, well insulated, the attic is well ventilated, etc. The guy who built it put a lot of effort into making it cost effective to live here. I didn't actually look back at my last June power bill, but I think this year it was maybe $10-20 higher. I'll try to remember to go back and compare. I've had the AC in the shop set at 77 since I installed it.

I don't really heat my shop. I can deal with cold by layering up, and it doesn't really get very cold here, and not for too long. Last winter I did use a tubular propane heater thingy for about 30 minutes in the late morning just to warm it up a little bit. Then during the day it stayed bearable. You can't use this type of heat too long due to the burning propane. The AC I bought also has heat strips, which I haven't even tried (probably oughta make sure they work........). It is not much heat, I think like 10,000btu or so. I don't really intend on using it, I just figured if I'm going through the effort of the install I might as well get the unit with heat for another $100. I'll probably use it a little bit on extremely cold days, or if I plan to use the weekend for working in the shop. Take the edge off in the morning and it should then stay bearable all day. I'm sure the heat strips will drive the electric bill up fast.

If I were to do it again, I don't think I'd do anything different other than the programmable thermostat. I'd maybe try to find a slightly bigger unit, 24,000 or 25,000 btu but it probably wouldn't make hardly any difference. My issue is poor insulation and heat soaking the building. It is what it is, there's no easy or cheap way for me to change that so this was the best option for me. I have good humidity control, bearable temps, and so far not a big change in power bill. FYI, I spent $700 on the unit and probably another $100 in parts (sheet metal, peel and stick flashing, metal flashing, hardware, lumber, caulking/sealant, 220v outlet/box/wiring, etc). I don't know what a central unit would cost but I'd imagine $2000 minimum even on the cheap.

I also foamed the upper corners of the shop, where there were gaps. You could see daylight through them. I think this helped slightly, of course, sealing up the building a little better. I then bought an insanely expensive brush seal for the top of the roll up door to close the ~3" gap, and I haven't noticed any difference but I'm sure it helped ever so slightly. They sure are proud of that brush seal lol, I think it was $150 for 12ft. I'm not happy with my install of the brush seal, too much pressure on the door, it's difficult to roll up. I need to redo that and try to close the gaps at the top corners of the door better, where the jamb brush seal meets the header brush seal. I already had jamb brush seals that I installed prior due to water running down the door track and into the shop.

I hope this helps. Any further questions shoot me an email (I don't get on here often). my username at gmail
 
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snrusnak

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One other thing, I noticed that when I walk by my roll up door (no insulation at all) it feels like your standing in front of an oven with the door open. I may try to install some fog spray nozzles outside near the top or something to cool the door. It radiates a ton of heat. It is seriously probably 10 degrees different in temp from right by the door to across the room.
 

junkyardwarrior

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Thank you for the detailed review. I have one unit already, an old 18,000 BTU 220v unit, that I may or may not use. Probably just sell it and get a new 25k unit. No more than I use the shop, it should suffice. My biggest hurdle is cutting a hole in the wall. My brother has the same building as I, but his is kind of down in a hole and poorly insulated (bubble "insulation"), and one 25k btu unit cools it down into the low 80's easily. His has the heat strips and once warmed up in the shop, the unit's heat strips will maintain the heat in the 60's on a 30 degree day fairly easily, but his electric bill certainly shows it. That's the downside to living here. Summers are brutally warm with plenty of humidity and the winters aren't a lot different than those of where I moved from, Nebraska, aside from less snow (thank goodness-I hate snow). So heating and cooling can be challenging. I hate heating with propane bullet heaters because of the fumes. I hate Carbon Monoxide. When I was younger I was extremely close to death due to CO poisoning and I tend to avoid it's production for that reason.
 
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snrusnak

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No problem. What's your wall construction exactly?

The shop is holding 84 deg right now with ~30-40% humidity, it's about 96 deg outside. Sounds kinda hot in there but it's actually very comfortable. I guess because of the low humidity.

I don't know how accurate my cheapo thermometer and humidistats are, but I have two of them and the temps are usually about spot on with each other, the humidity usually varies by about 10%.
 

junkyardwarrior

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When I had the building put up, they didn't do a thing for insulation other than the bubble wrap stuff, which they called "insulated". I'm told it has an R value of up to 8; not much really. Post frame building, they used 6x6 posts. So when I got to move some of my junk into it, I framed all the interior walls with 2x6's, then sealed up the bottoms where the metal exterior was gapped, sealed the tops where I could see daylight, then put in R22 batts into the cavities of the walls. Then covered with 7/16 4x9 OSB walls. I had to use 9' because from bottom to top is 8' 9", so obviously an 8 footer wasn't going to cut it. Roof is still open for the time being; I don't really have a plan on doing any sort of ceiling to speak of as at some point I may put in a lift and I'll need all the height I can get due to it being a 10' height. I can probably get a little more if I wiggle the roof of the car between the trusses.

Today I was off work (rare) and had plans to go fishing at the lake. Go out to the shop to get the truck out and noticed that there was a large puddle of coolant under it. My first thought was water pump and I was right. Nobody has one in stock around here of course, so it's on order from Navistar (7.3 PSD); and also almost $200; not counting 7 gallons of coolant. So my a/c budget just got ate up for a little while. But anyway, point is that I'll have to change the pump out there in the shop later this week-they're forecasting mid 90's and it's been raining every night for the last week, so humidity is extremely high. Right now it's 85 degrees actual air temp (at almost 10pm) and 93% relative humidity. The fans do a decent job but nothing beats a/c, IMO. I'll have to work through it. The older I get the more I hate it and I'm only 41. Been working outside every single day with little to no breeze or airflow to speak of for 26 years, 10 hours a day 6 days a week, plus what I do at home. Tired of fighting it but don't really have the money to have a central unit put in. I bought a package unit last year but didn't realize it was a 3 phase unit. Decided to just cut my loss on that deal. Ended up trading it for a 85 Merkur XR4Ti, kept the engine, sold some parts to offset the cost of the a/c unit and plan on using the engine in a Mustang. A/C should make it much more enjoyable to do the engine swap later this summer.
 
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snrusnak

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I think you'll be satisfied with a large window unit in your shop. I am in mine, and your insulation is WAY better. Where exactly are you located?

You could probably have got a phase converter for that unit you traded. I got a free 3 phase exhaust fan that I haven't mounted yet, and with the help of this forum and it's members was able to purchase a VFD with built in phase converter for about $150. It will allow me to run the fan with my residential single phase power, plus has a ton of features like variable speed potentiometer, reversible directions, and about a million other things I'll probably never use or understand what they are. Just for future reference if you end up with another 3 phase piece of equipment.
 
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