Wire Marking Question

[Spudland_Dave]

So I bought the 2-2-2-4 MHF at Lowes Yesterday...last night I was admiring my purchase and it dawned on me, how do I know what wire is what? The only wire marked is the 4ga Ground wire...it has a white stripe on it. The 3 2ga conductors are all plain black. Looking closely at the markings on it I see they ARE marked "PHASE AAAA", PHASE "BBBB" and "PHASE CCCC" Now I assume thats how I can differentiate them on both ends?
That being said, I would also think I should mark em with the correctly colored Utility Tape?

 

[ishiboo]

So I bought the 2-2-2-4 MHF at Lowes Yesterday...last night I was admiring my purchase and it dawned on me, how do I know what wire is what? The only wire marked is the 4ga Ground wire...it has a white stripe on it. The 3 2ga conductors are all plain black. Looking closely at the markings on it I see they ARE marked "PHASE AAAA", PHASE "BBBB" and "PHASE CCCC" Now I assume thats how I can differentiate them on both ends?
That being said, I would also think I should mark em with the correctly colored Utility Tape?

You can.

The hot phases do not matter, they are typically marked with red tape. The neutral of course is different and is re-identified with a band of white tape. Throw some green on the ground and you're set.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I bought the 2-2-2-4 MHF at Lowes Yesterday...last night I was admiring my purchase and it dawned on me, how do I know what wire is what? The only wire marked is the 4ga Ground wire...it has a white stripe on it. The 3 2ga conductors are all plain black. Looking closely at the markings on it I see they ARE marked "PHASE AAAA", PHASE "BBBB" and "PHASE CCCC" Now I assume that's how I can differentiate them on both ends?
That being said, I would also think I should mark em with the correctly colored Utility Tape?

White would be neutral NOT ground! Other than that, get yourself some red and green electrical tape. The so called phases don't matter(the legs in single phase electricity are actually not called phases and the service is actually called split phase!), so u can pick whichever one u want for whichever leg.

 

[zuk123]

The phases are usually marked with 1, 2, or 3 bands of tape, or red, blue, black tape in most areas of the US where I've worked.

You will want to be able to differentiate the phases if you are running 3 phase motors, and there are code requirements for wire identification. Since the actual conductor jackets are marked, tape colors would be just a convenience.

Bigger concern is that the question reveals some basic lack of knowledge... please get competent help. You don't want to risk your life or the life of someone who comes after you and has to deal with this electrical system.

zuk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The phases are usually marked with 1, 2, or 3 bands of tape, or red, blue, black tape in most areas of the US where I've worked.

You will want to be able to differentiate the phases if you are running 3 phase motors, and there are code requirements for wire identification. Since the actual conductor jackets are marked, tape colors would be just a convenience.

Bigger concern is that the question reveals some basic lack of knowledge...please get competent help. You don't want to risk your life or the life of someone who comes after you and has to deal with this electrical system.

zuk

Do u really think he's gonna feed a 3-phase circuit with MHF? Come on now! How would u feel if someone told u that when u were trying to learn the trade? He's using this to feed HIS garage, so I don't think anyone else will be dealing with it!

(These kind of comments really bug me!)

 

[Falcon67]

The 2-2-2-4 AL I got from HD had 2 black conductors, one black with white stripe and the #4 was green. Pretty easy there. The mfg was Southwire. In the past when I pulled individual black wires, I just picked one and applied white "athletic" tape to both ends and in other spots. Waterproof bandage tape lasts a real long time. A ground would get pieces of green electrical tape if the wire could not be had in that color. As noted, the phase conductors are not sequenced.

 

[pattenp]

Dave, the cable you got does not sound like mobile home feeder. Usually MHF has 2 black, 1 black w/white stripe and 1 green for ground.

The cable you have sounds like Quadruplex URD. It has 3 phase/hot wires and 1 neutral. Check and get the stamped ratings on the wire insulation. If it doesn't have RHH or RHW-2 in the rating then it's not MHF.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Do they even sell quad URD @ Lowe's? I haven't seen it @ any of the Lowe's around here!

 

[pattenp]

Do they even sell quad URD @ Lowe's? I haven't seen it @ any of the Lowe's around here!

Me neither, but something is not making sense.

 

[ishiboo]

Our Lowes has it.

I believe he simply confused the wire gauges, and that the ground is green #4 and neutral (black with white) is #2.

I highly doubt 3-phase service is involved

 

[Spudland_Dave]

No 3 phase is involved...standard 220v 100a

As I said in the "Cable" has 3 "All Black" Conductors which are 2ga. There is one Black with white stripe #4 Ga. I assumed the 4ga was the ground. Just checked out the Southwire spec page and sure enough, the Ground is the 4ga one (in my case it has a white stripe)
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15
Yes both my HD & Lowes carry the MHF, I only got it at Lowes because HD was out.

Bigger concern is that the question reveals some basic lack of knowledge... please get competent help. You don't want to risk your life or the life of someone who comes after you and has to deal with this electrical system.

The least of my worries is installing this..one way or the other it will get done by me. Thing is, I'd rather ask "Stupid questions" and Look Dumb then actually do something dumb. I guess when you marry a teacher and your sister and mother are all in the education field, I just take the "There are no stupid questions" thing seriously. I would never learn if I dont ask the question.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No 3 phase is involved...standard 220v 100a

As I said in the "Cable" has 3 "All Black" Conductors which are 2ga. There is one Black with white stripe #4 Ga. I assumed the 4ga was the ground. Just checked out the Southwire spec page and sure enough, the Ground is the 4ga one (in my case it has a white stripe)
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15
Yes both my HD & Lowes carry the MHF, I only got it at Lowes because HD was out...

Both pattenp and I know that MHF is sold @ the home improvement stores. What we were saying is that we don't think quad URD is sold there. Quad URD is a different cable usually used for 3 phase circuits!

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Both pattenp and I know that MHF is sold @ the home improvement stores. What we were saying is that we don't think quad URD is sold there. Quad URD is a different cable usually used for 3 phase circuits!

So what makes it different...both HD & Lowes here had the SAME Exact Cable....In speaking with the sales guy, they sell this by the boatload..for exactly what I'm doing...Looking at the reciept, it is indeed URD...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So what makes it different...both HD & Lowes here had the SAME Exact Cable....In speaking with the sales guy, they sell this by the boatload..for exactly what I'm doing...Looking at the receipt, it is indeed URD...

LoL! We're discussing this same thing in the thread 'conduit' with another guy named Dave!

URD is not rated for indoor use- it's not fire resistant! To use it, u would need a junction box on either end and switch to indoor rated wire!

And I wouldn't trust a 'sales guy' @ a home improvement store to make sure to get u what u need!

 

[pattenp]

LoL! We're discussing this same thing in the thread 'conduit' with another guy named Dave!

URD is not rated for indoor use- it's not fire resistant! To use it, u would need a junction box on either end and switch to indoor rated wire!

And I wouldn't trust a 'sales guy' @ a home improvement store to make sure to get u what u need!

Bingo!

Dave the link you posted is the MHF

But, this is what you got... http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet40


*

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Thanks Guys...NOW...the questions continue...SOOO... I thought that USE-2 rating (which is it) made it OK to go inside because its dual rated.

The question remains....Am I correct to say the 4ga wire is the Ground, and the 3, 2ga wires would be the 2 hots and neutral?

Code perfect guys close your eyes now...The ship has sailed in terms of what I bought is what I got....this cable will be installed end to end as is...no splices..Sure the jacket may melt and burn...out here in the real world, if I have a fire on either end I've got larger issues and whatever wire is there wont make a difference...

 

[zuk123]

Do u really think he's gonna feed a 3-phase circuit with MHF? Come on now!

I have no idea about his intent and you don't have any either. His question was about marking wires with tape, that were already marked with "PHASE AAAA", PHASE "BBBB" and "PHASE CCCC" . I've seen 3 phase run on all kinds of things including steel aircraft cable wrapped in e tape. I'm not making that up. My answer was specifically about marking with tape.

How would u feel if someone told u that when u were trying to learn the trade?

Not sure what you are referring to here.

If it was my suggestion to get competent help, I'll stand by that. He is looking for help, he posted a question ASKING for help. I'm saying that an internet forum is NOT a substitute for a locally licensed electrician. Too many electrical questions have the answer "it depends". It depends on local code, standards of practice, and all the other pre-existing factors that are not present in a forum post.

I'm not suggesting that no one should do their own work, or try to learn something new. I really believe the opposite. But if I posted a question like

"I picked up some paper yesterday to write my last will and testament by myself. Now I'm thinking I should have gotten lined paper instead of plain. What do you guys think?"​

I HOPE someone would point out that I don't seem to have a full understanding of the issues involved and recommend that I consult with an attorney. I HOPE that the next comment would be someone pointing out that there is perfectly good software that can do the job for less money. I EXPECT that several other commentors would post about their bad and good experiences with lawyers, wills, and software.

I don't know why it's different with electrical questions.

He's using this to feed HIS garage, so I don't think anyone else will be dealing with it!

Well, his neighbors will be dealing with it if there is a serious problem. His heirs or whoever buys it after he leaves will be dealing with it. Any electrician who comes in later to work on it will be dealing with it. And he'll be dealing with it when it comes time to sell when the home inspector flags it as a problem.

(These kind of comments really bug me!)

The kind that answer the question asked and suggest that there might be more to it than that and suggest getting help?


Spudland_Dave-- sorry to veer off a little. I don't know you or your specific situation. Presumably neither do the other posters. If anything I said offended you, that wasn't my intent. I don't mean to suggest in any of my posts that you can't do it safely, successfully, and well. Most of the guys on GJ have a can do, git er done attitude and a strong independent streak. It's one of the great things about this site.

I believe there are some things that are worth getting the help and advice of a pro-- legal, medical, and electrical being the ones that first come to mind.

good luck, and best wishes,

zuk

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Spudland_Dave-- sorry to veer off a little. I don't know you or your specific situation. Presumably neither do the other posters. If anything I said offended you, that wasn't my intent. I don't mean to suggest in any of my posts that you can't do it safely, successfully, and well. Most of the guys on GJ have a can do, git er done attitude and a strong independent streak. It's one of the great things about this site.

I believe there are some things that are worth getting the help and advice of a pro-- legal, medical, and electrical being the ones that first come to mind.

good luck, and best wishes,

zuk

Hey, I've got thick skin...no hard feelings here...Just looking for the "right product" to do what I gotta do...not so much HOW to do it.

But to counter your point about having a licensed electrician do it...I've gotten opinions/help from 2 locals....both are full time electricians, work all the time. One told me to "Run down to Home Depot or Lowes and get the 2-2-2-4 without the gray cover". The other one I didnt speak to in person, but he did my buddies garage with 2-2-2-4 SER....and it travels 50 feet in an underground conduit...
NOW...I think we can ALL agree that if you follow the code right down to the fine print both are "Wrong" (I wont mention that the professionally installed one also used a 100A breaker )

Yes this is just an internet forum, but sometimes the people here are more knowledgable then a "Local Pro".

My original question was really more along the lines of Decoding the actual text markings on the cable. In other words... is the conductor with "Phase 1" markings on it gonna be marked Phase1 all the way down the cable, and is there a Generally accepted practice of making 1 & 2 the hots and "Phase 3" the Neutral?
It also threw me off a bit that the 4 Ga was the one with the white stripe. I assumed the smallest conductor would be the ground, and thusly green...

Marking them with tape is no issue..I got most colors at home already.

 

[pattenp]

Thanks Guys...NOW...the questions continue...SOOO... I thought that USE-2 rating (which is it) made it OK to go inside because its dual rated.

The question remains....Am I correct to say the 4ga wire is the Ground, and the 3, 2ga wires would be the 2 hots and neutral?

Code perfect guys close your eyes now...The ship has sailed in terms of what I bought is what I got....this cable will be installed end to end as is...no splices..Sure the jacket may melt and burn...out here in the real world, if I have a fire on either end I've got larger issues and whatever wire is there wont make a difference...

Okay Dave here's the deal. The cable is not rated for indoor use, plain and simple. The USE-2 is not a fire resistant rating, just a higher temp rating than USE.

As I said in another post, I wouldn't lose sleep over using it inside because I don't think it will burst into flames on its own. Bottom line is it does not meet code if used inside. You have to make the decision to use it or not. The main reason I wouldn't use it inside is because if selling my home would a home inspection pick up on it and become an issue. To me it's best to just do it right in the first place.

It needs to be in conduit from end to end.

Mark one of the #2 white and mark the #4 green using elec tape at terminations.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Okay Dave here's the deal. The cable is not rated for indoor use, plain and simple. The USE-2 is not a fire resistant rating, just a higher temp rating than USE.

Gotcha...and figured as much...unless theres more ratings on it that I cant remember...I wrote em down and will check tonight.

As I said in another post, I wouldn't lose sleep over using it inside because I don't think it will burst into flames on its own. Bottom line is it does not meet code if used inside. You have to make the decision to use it or not. The main reason I wouldn't use it inside is because if selling my home would a home inspection pick up on it and become an issue. To me it's best to just do it right in the first place.

When it comes to doing it right in the first place, I couldnt agree with you more...But by the same token, today, I really dont want to have $180.00 bucks of wasted materials...In terms of code...no code where I am building. No building inspections, and if we ever sold and it became an issue...I'd fire up my Bobcat 325 Mini-Ex and say...Wire? What wire?

It needs to be in conduit from end to end.

Even in the ground? the plan was to use conduit from where it comes up out of the ground all the way into the building and into my panel....no exposed cable anywhere, but it would be direct bury inbetween.

Mark one of the #2 white and mark the #4 green using elec tape at terminations.

Got the tape already to do exactly that...

 

[pattenp]

Even in the ground? the plan was to use conduit from where it comes up out of the ground all the way into the building and into my panel....no exposed cable anywhere, but it would be direct bury in between.

...

Ooops... my mistake. Too many wire types in my head. You are right, under ground no conduit is needed.

Just checking to see if you're paying attention.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Ooops... my mistake. Too many wire types in my head. You are right, under ground no conduit is needed.

Just checking to see if you're paying attention.

LOL!
You see, in my simplistic view...thats the problem. From a production/cost standpoint, a simpleton like me would think a couple of cable types would suffice for 90% of the real world.

What would be the problem of having URD/USE-2 have Fire Resistance properties? And I assume that to be from EXTERNAL Fires? or why not throw a Jacket on the ground in the SE cable and rate it for in ground?

 

[PT Doc]

Lets say of a fire occurred in the building from some other source. If there was an inspection after the fire, could this be an issue? Could your insurance refuse to pay because there was electrical on the premises and in the region of the fire that was not to code?

I would think if someone called the insurance Company that insured their home and asked of they would cover a partial loss due to fire if the building had electrical that was not done to code, they just might say no. just something to think about even though its extremely unlikely. Could you cover a partial loss or a total loss out of pocket? If not, then $180 is pretty cheap in my eyes.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

This is what the markings on 2-2-2-4 Southwire MHF look like.

Charles

 

[wyliesdiesels]

In response to zuk123 and Dave- Many "licensed" electricians screw things up and don't do things right. So, its good that people like Dave are asking questions. And Dave has pointed out just the reason why Zuk123's answer doesn't always work! I understand what you were getting @ Zuk but telling Dave to get a licensed electrician didn't answer the question and that's why I said "comments like this annoy me!" Sorry if I offended you!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Lets say of a fire occurred in the building from some other source. If there was an inspection after the fire, could this be an issue? Could your insurance refuse to pay because there was electrical on the premises and in the region of the fire that was not to code?

I would think if someone called the insurance Company that insured their home and asked of they would cover a partial loss due to fire if the building had electrical that was not done to code, they just might say no. just something to think about even though its extremely unlikely. Could you cover a partial loss or a total loss out of pocket? If not, then $180 is pretty cheap in my eyes.

Good point and I've heard of insurance being higher because of the way certain places were incorrectly wired. But, this would have to be answered by an insurance agent/adjuster! Anyone?

 

[nehog]

No 3 phase is involved...standard 220v 100a

As I said in the "Cable" has 3 "All Black" Conductors which are 2ga. There is one Black with white stripe #4 Ga. I assumed the 4ga was the ground. Just checked out the Southwire spec page and sure enough, the Ground is the 4ga one (in my case it has a white stripe)
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15
...

That spec shows a black, black, black/white and green cable where the green is 4 AWAG and the three blacks (one with a white stripe to denote neutral) being 2 AWG. There is no ambiguity in that specification for the 2-2-2-4 cable.

What they sold you is either not what you are describing, or you have the wrong specification sheet and they sold you the wrong cable. My money is on this being the wrong cable, what you describe is a three-phase cable for a wye configuration (which has a neutral, hence the one wire with the white stripe.)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That spec shows a black, black, black/white and green cable where the green is 4 AWAG and the three blacks (one with a white stripe to denote neutral) being 2 AWG. There is no ambiguity in that specification for the 2-2-2-4 cable.

What they sold you is either not what you are describing, or you have the wrong specification sheet and they sold you the wrong cable. My money is on this being the wrong cable, what you describe is a three-phase cable for a wye configuration (which has a neutral, hence the one wire with the white stripe.)

Yes, this was established a few comments back on the 1st page. He got the wrong cable and the cable referenced in the link he posted was not the same as the cable he has in hand!

 

[zuk123]

Hey Wylie, not offended. Just grumpy. I don't think Dave has to hire an electrician, but he should talk to a competent one. Of course, they are not all competent

The problem with talking to anyone, in person, or online, is that they don't have all the details. Hiring someone forces that person to get all the details. It also moves the liability onto them. And in most cases the only opinion that matters is the inspectors (which is not an issue in this case.)

Getting second and third opinions is always a good idea, and I've seen lots of people get a good "gut check" from GJ members. GJ has an absolutely astonishing range of folks with extraordinary knowledge and experience and they are able to answer just about any question put to them. Sharing the process is what this board is all about too.

Dave-- sorry, thread jack over Keep posting your progress!

zuk

 

[Spudland_Dave]

So took a pic of exactly what I got...Exact Markings on Sheath are:

SOUTHWIRE (UL) AWG 2 TYPE USE-2 60 MILS XLP INSULATION 600 VOLTS AUG/15/2012 #094936 DEW 09 PHASE AAAAA

I did make one error when I described what I got...the 4GA conductor is not white striped, its striped in Yellow.

 

[pattenp]

Oooh... I win, I win. Go back and look at the link I posted in #15. It's constructed with yellow stripped neutral. So Dave do I get an all expense paid trip to Maine? I've always wanted to go to Maine.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Oooh... I win, I win. Go back and look at the link I posted in #15. It's constructed with yellow stripped neutral. So Dave do I get an all expense paid trip to Maine? I've always wanted to go to Maine.

You certianly do win...Since I've spent all my spare cash on my new garage (and cable ) I cant swing the trip right now...As a consolation prize, i've attached a pic I took this past weekend...
SOOOO...aside from the USE-2 Rating and being indoors...you know the stuff we've discussed for the last week back & forth
Lookin at that PDF you linked to...this wire is good for 155A in the ground and 115 in Conduit...Sounds to me like having a 100A breaker on this wire is more then fine. Spec-Wise to the non-electrican I am, this sounds like its better cable.... Again...OTHER then the whole insulation thing, any reason I cant/shouldnt use it?

This AM I threw my coil of wire in the back of my truck and have a few dates with it today...will report back what I find out locally later on.

 

[pattenp]

Dave, I don't recall you saying how far you're running the feeder or what the amount of amps you're wanting to have at the end. You can't use the amp rating off the Southwire chart because that rating is 90 deg and when the wire is used as a service distribution. Your application is a branch/feeder circuit and different rules apply. The max amps you can pull through #2 Al per the NEC for that application is 90A. To have a 3% or less volt drop at 90A you will be limited to a distance of 125 feet.

And if that picture is of your place... you ****.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Dave, I don't recall you saying how far you're running the feeder or what the amount of amps you're wanting to have at the end. You can't use the amp rating off the Southwire chart because that rating is 90 deg and when the wire is used as a service distribution. Your application is a branch/feeder circuit and different rules apply. The max amps you can pull through #2 Al per the NEC for that application is 90A. To have a 3% or less volt drop at 90A you will be limited to a distance of 125 feet.

Gotcha... Well I purchased 125', but when I roughly measured it, I had a measurement of 91' So finished length should be between those 2 figures.

And if that picture is of your place... you ****.

Its not my place, but it does belong to my inlaws...we stayed there Thurs-Sun last week.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Update...
Went to Local Electric Supply House to get an LR and check on the wire...Asked if they carried "Mobile Home Feeder...2-2-2-4"....they said yep...I asked if it was dual rated...he/we looked and nope. EXACT Same thing I got already. We chatted about the covering and the RHH-2, and how I didnt want any splices....he turned to me and said...Do you know what the XLP stands for...which I did...then he asked me if I had PEX in my house and smiled...In other words "I cant/wont TELL you its OK, but dont worry about it".

Checked HD as well...no dice, everybody around carries the Southwire "Quadraplex" not True MHF.

 

[pattenp]

All I can say is what they are calling MHF isn't MHF. And XLP (Cross-linked polyethylene) doesn't mean a thing in it self, plus wires aren't full of water.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

All I can say is what they are calling MHF isn't MHF. And XLP (Cross-linked polyethylene) doesn't mean a thing in it self, plus wires aren't full of water.

Very True...Cant argue your point there.
IF what he was telling me is/was correct...the fire rating isnt in terms of the wire catching itself on fire or anything like that...its that if you had a fire and you ignited the jacket, this jacket COULD in theory spread the fire from one room to another. The key is apparently "Room to room"....Ever notice that huge bundle of wires behind your TV or computer...all flamable but all "Legal"...the minute you run HDMI/Speaker or anything else from one room to another thru the walls, you need plenum/CL2 rated cabling be it power or Cat5.
AND its not fire PROOF..eventually it will all still burn.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Very True...Cant argue your point there.
IF what he was telling me is/was correct...the fire rating isn't in terms of the wire catching itself on fire or anything like that...its that if you had a fire and you ignited the jacket, this jacket COULD in theory spread the fire from one room to another. The key is apparently "Room to room"....Ever notice that huge bundle of wires behind your TV or computer...all flammable, but all "Legal"...the minute you run HDMI/Speaker or anything else from one room to another thru the walls, you need plenum/CL2 rated cabling be it power or Cat5.
AND its not fire PROOF..eventually it will all still burn.

I'm very familiar with all this as I used to do electrical and especially CAT5 @ McDonalds, Panda Express and Starbucks Restaurants. McDonalds was especially picky about making sure the CAT5 used was plenum rated so as to slow the spread of fire from the kitchen to the rest of the restaurant! Yes, insulation ratings have nothing to do with being fire proof or that the wire will catch itself on fire.

The term is 'fire resistant' or 'fire retardant'. Its just like what u said- the insulation is suppose to resist or slow the spread of fire. Yes, the wires behind your TV or computer thing is ironic and contradictory.

After all this back and forth, in the end in your situation, it doesn't matter as you've already pointed out! So get 'er done!

 

[tojoski]

So took a pic of exactly what I got...Exact Markings on Sheath are:

SOUTHWIRE (UL) AWG 2 TYPE USE-2 60 MILS XLP INSULATION 600 VOLTS AUG/15/2012 #094936 DEW 09 PHASE AAAAA

I did make one error when I described what I got...the 4GA conductor is not white striped, its striped in Yellow.

This is the exact same boat I'm in.. same wire already ran in conduit except it's 2/0-2/0-2/0-1....

I ran it in conduit the whole way to my metal building...

2/0 MHF is what I really wanted, but its almost impossible to find. You can pick it up at the home improvement stores, but only in #2 or 4/0.. first of which was way to small for my application, second of which way to large..

My plan is to simply use the wire labeled "Phase CCCCC" as the common. As with yours, the smaller one for the ground has a yellow stripe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just be aware that that wire is not code compliant when ran inside a building!