Wire needed for service?

[ToddW]

I've been talking to electricians for this part of the project as I believe my current setup is a very old way of doing things. However, I've gotten two answers and want to get opinions of others here

Currently the (detached) shop is running on 2 sets of 12ga bonded together at the sub-panel inside the shop/house... and by sub-panel, it's barely that... only fits iirc 5 circuits and well, uses two sets of wires bonded which I think now is only allowed at a much larger wire size? (House/Shop are old).

Goals:
- New Sub-Panel that will handle many circuits (120v & 240v)
- 200 AMP load capacity
- Distance from Meter / connect-through (120' or less, may be closer to 100' I need to re-measure)
- Trench & Run 2" Conduit

I won't be doing this install / hookup but I will trench and run the conduit.
I've talked to a couple and some are saying 2/0 and other are saying 3/0.

Questions:

1. 2/0 Copper or 3/0 Copper? ($200 more to buy 500ft roll of 3/0 vs 2/0. Likely marginal difference if I go to an electrical supply place and buy <500ft but closer to 250'. HomeDepot/Lowes better off going with the 500' roll.) Also, I believe It needs to be THWN-2, right?
2. SCH80 Conduit or Metal?
3. Which 240v fused disconnect would you use? Do I need one at the house + shop for this or only at the house?
4. Suggested Sub-Panel in Shop? I was looking at the: Square D HomeLine part# 97723
   I noticed there are 42 space, and 54 space for a little more money, and some other 'methods' of attachment/wire. I'd like to do this once, and right. If that means spending 2x on the box or buying non-home owner and going more commercial please show me the path

I know I'm going to get asked why 200AMP to the shop so I'll answer it ahead of time
Expandability and desire to only do things once. Our house actually uses VERY little electricity (all gas, no central heat/air) so without upgrading to 400 AMP at the house I could theoretically pull 150 AMP @ 240V with no affect to the house. The shop also has an office upstairs which will have approx. 60U of (computer) server space filled to capacity, not running 24/7 but at 240V that could draw A LOT of power depending on business needs. In addition my 'ultimate' goal for the shop is to be able to run these at once:
- Office Upstairs w/Servers (30A 240v)
- 7.5 - 10HP Compressor motor (40-50A)
- Hypertherm Powermax 85 Plasma Cutter (60A)
- Lights/Chargers/Fans
- 225 TIG Welder (50A but can use more on arc)
I sold my CNC Plasma setup a while ago, but I'll be setting up for it again in the next year or so, and want it to be able to run while I'm welding / using the shop for other purposes. The likelihood of me running all of the above at 100% is unlikely, but running Plasma at 100% on CNC is very likely as well as compressor running 100% it's the welders/servers/lights/fans that likely won't be at 100% and will keep the load around 150A during 'demand' periods.


I'm leaning toward going with the 3/0 wire for the above safety factor, and minimal increase in cost increase overall for entire electrical project.

And, to state again I won't be doing this service hookup trying to learn from those who have so I can make the best choices

 

[rockwithjason]

Questions:

1. 2/0 Copper or 3/0 Copper? ($200 more to buy 500ft roll of 3/0 vs 2/0. Likely marginal difference if I go to an electrical supply place and buy <500ft but closer to 250'. HomeDepot/Lowes better off going with the 500' roll.) Also, I believe It needs to be THWN-2, right?
   
   2/0 is not going to get it. 3/0 with a wet rating is needed thwn will work
   
2. SCH80 Conduit or Metal?
   
   could be either. pvc would be cheaper and would require much less to install
   
3. Which 240v fused disconnect would you use? Do I need one at the house + shop for this or only at the house?
   
   you will need a breaker in the main panel sized to the amp rating you want. you will also need a disconnect on the exterior of the building near the location of the penetration of the conductors. A fused disconnect would only be needed if you were tapping from the meter but that is not what you indicated.
   
4. Suggested Sub-Panel in Shop? I was looking at the: Square D HomeLine part# 97723
   I noticed there are 42 space, and 54 space for a little more money, and some other 'methods' of attachment/wire. I'd like to do this once, and right. If that means spending 2x on the box or buying non-home owner and going more commercial please show me the path

it is unlikely that you will need more than 42 spaces. if you do need more i would suggest a sub panel in the building

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If u want 200a u will need 3/0cu or 250kcmil al. The ground wire can be #6 cu or #4 al

Make sure to isolate the neutral bar in the sub panel.

U shouldnt need a seperate disconnect. Just make sure the sub has a main breaker.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I know I'm going to get asked why 200AMP to the shop so I'll answer it ahead of time
Expandability and desire to only do things once.

- Office Upstairs w/Servers (30A 240v)
- 7.5 - 10HP Compressor motor (40-50A)
- Hypertherm Powermax 85 Plasma Cutter (60A)
- Lights/Chargers/Fans
- 225 TIG Welder (50A but can use more on arc)

Why don't you don't some of that extra money you have "burning a hole in your pocket" to my retirement fund !

You are SO FAR OFF on your power estimates ...

Computer servers. What are you trying to do, set up a computer museum and run some 20 year old stuff ? Eve the machines I installed 20 years ago were all 120V, 15A. Put a 20A circuit in there and you can run a bunch of servers.
A 10hp 240V compressor would be huge ! Are you outfitting a small factory or a 6 bay repair shop ?
Lights - One 15A circuit.
Heating/Ventilation (not A/C) - One 15A circuit per appliance
Wall outlets - 2 20A circuits.


It your money. Spend it however you want to. Are you trying to COMPENSATE for something else ?

 

[rockwithjason]

U shouldnt need a seperate disconnect. Just make sure the sub has a main breaker.

i misread the section, this is correct

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Oh yeah almost forgot. If the OP is gonna run a 10HP motor he needs to check with the PoCo first as many dont allow motors over a certain HP. The trany feeding his property may not be able to handle the in-rush of a motor that large.

Do u really need a 10HP compressor? What are doing in thr shop that needs that much air? I bet a 5Hp will be big enough for u.

And is this a one man shop? If so, how would u run more than a compressor and welder at the same time?

 

[reader2580]

Computer servers. What are you trying to do, set up a computer museum and run some 20 year old stuff ? Eve the machines I installed 20 years ago were all 120V, 15A. Put a 20A circuit in there and you can run a bunch of

Pretty much any server made in the past 10 to 15 years can run off 110 or 220. The current practice in most modern data servers is to use 220.

The data center at work was built in early 2015. It is 100% 220 for servers, network equipment, and everything related. There are two 110 volt receptacles for workers who have to do work in the room.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Pretty much any server made in the past 10 to 15 years can run off 110 or 220. The current practice in most modern data servers is to use 220.

The data center at work was built in early 2015. It is 100% 220 for servers, network equipment, and everything related. There are two 110 volt receptacles for workers who have to do work in the room.

Most desktop computers have dual voltage power supplies as well.

 

[ToddW]

I feel like I should clarify a bit more before reply... This isn't something I decided I wanted my own shop and going to throw money at it, and outfit it with the most expensive items. I've been fabricating and working in this shop for the last 8 years with a 50AMP 240V 100' extension cord, and the small 20A (or 30?) service provided by the sub-panel. Prior to that another 8 years at another house before we moved. I've accumulated tools and equipment for the better part of the last 20 years and I think the only big items I've purchased NEW are my Kama bandsaw and Precisiong TIG 225... my 255 MIG, lathe, mill, etc, etc, all used.

So there's no large sums of money being thrown around buying and filling a shop it's the opposite. I've had to save to fund the electric projects because of how much wire cost, and all the misc add up!! In addition to having many other things to spend money on around the property.

Please don't get the wrong idea that this is some 'dream shop' I'm throwing money at I'm just simply at the stage now where I can afford to do the electrical inside and out correctly and make sure I don't need to do it again

If u want 200a u will need 3/0cu or 250kcmil al. The ground wire can be #6 cu or #4 al

Make sure to isolate the neutral bar in the sub panel.

U shouldnt need a seperate disconnect. Just make sure the sub has a main breaker.

Thank you!

Why don't you don't some of that extra money you have "burning a hole in your pocket" to my retirement fund !

You are SO FAR OFF on your power estimates ...

Computer servers. What are you trying to do, set up a computer museum and run some 20 year old stuff ? Eve the machines I installed 20 years ago were all 120V, 15A. Put a 20A circuit in there and you can run a bunch of servers.
A 10hp 240V compressor would be huge ! Are you outfitting a small factory or a 6 bay repair shop ?
Lights - One 15A circuit.
Heating/Ventilation (not A/C) - One 15A circuit per appliance
Wall outlets - 2 20A circuits.


It your money. Spend it however you want to. Are you trying to COMPENSATE for something else ?

I'll entertain your post and reply, and help educate you if you're really curious and want answers and not just giving me a hard time

I already stated it will be approx. 60U worth of servers. I can pull 1.6KW @ 120V in 4U of space...(8 individual nodes) I obviously cannot support the cooling required and electric for a full 60U for that density, but it doesn't mean that 60U full can't easily pull 50AMP @ 220V if I did run a lot at once. As others have stated desktop & server power supplies can run at a wide range of voltages for many years... but I will be using a 240V Power Distribution and battery backup unit specifically for the servers. So, unfortunately 20A @ 120v will not run a "bunch" of servers actually 'in use', it could run a bunch at or near idle... then again your idea of a bunch might be 6-10 and mine may be 15-20

There's no 'money burning a hole' I already own all the equipment... The shop equipment I already own as well, in my HP rating I up-sized for improvements / replacements. The server equipment I own more than 60U and am clearing some out in the coming months, this is business not for home personal use or gaming

I'll provide more info in the below reply too.

Oh yeah almost forgot. If the OP is gonna run a 10HP motor he needs to check with the PoCo first as many dont allow motors over a certain HP. The trany feeding his property may not be able to handle the in-rush of a motor that large.

Do u really need a 10HP compressor? What are doing in thr shop that needs that much air? I bet a 5Hp will be big enough for u.

And is this a one man shop? If so, how would u run more than a compressor and welder at the same time?

Thanks for that additional info. I'll be sure to ask

I don't need 10HP but I like to keep my options open for 'deals' I find on craigslist I currently have a 5HP/80G compressor (made in usa) I got on craigslist for $100 total. I also have a 5HP Lowes brand from 15 or so years ago when it was made in the uSA too that I'm using now while I repair/replace the pump on the 80G since I cracked part of the pump Often the higher HP 7.5 - 10HP sell REALLY cheap because no one can run them, and why not if I can?

I also would like the option to run a 10HP Rotary Phase Converter to power 3PH stuff, because, well, again... it can be had cheap since most people can't run it I currently have a 5HP RPC to run the Mill and Lathe.

I could use as much air as I can get for the sandblaster, and sandblasting cabinet... coupled with a CNC Plasma system I would not want to run out of air in the middle, so while 5HP is fine if I pay attention blasting or die grinder can use a lot of air, coupled with the usage from a plasma it can easily run-out on 5HP.

How do I run compressor and welder at once? I addressed that, a CNC Plasma will use 50A running full speed, the compressor will kick on/off while the plasma is running and I will be welding in another part of the shop. I sold my 4'x4' table a few years back and will be replacing it with a 5'x10' table in a dedicated 'room' off the side of the shop.

It adds up fast when you have a CNC system relying on plasma and air, and you are busy in the other half of the shop
50A Plasma
50A Welding (likely not at full power often)
30A Compressor

Like I said, it's not that I intend to run everything at 100% but why would I want to spend $500 less when I could have the capacity

Most of the material cut on the CNC plasma will be 1/4 to 3/8" -- more power is nice for cleaner faster cutting, and I want the capacity to be able to do 1/2" or more at a reasonable speed when making tractor implements.




Thank you everyone for your replies, and guidance on my plan

 

[theoldwizard1]

Pretty much any server made in the past 10 to 15 years can run off 110 or 220.

That was also pretty common 20-30 years ago !

The current practice in most modern data servers is to use 220.

I have been retired for 10 years, but my buddy is still working and is currently installing some servers, Maybe a dozen. They are all 120V

Of course the server room and racks ar probably 30 years old !![/QUOTE]

 

[theoldwizard1]

And is this a one man shop? If so, how would u run more than a compressor and welder at the same time?

Too much cash. Pockets too small.

 

[matt_i]

I'd buy a QO panel before I bought a HomeLine.

I'd also invest in a Phase Perfect if I was going to run anything CNC in production. In my experience servo drives which have to sink power back into the grid in various decel conditions are put in a bad situation with an RPC which has 2 strong legs and 1 weak leg with voltage all over the place depending on load. The P-P, despite being expensive, is something you take with you if you ever move, handy to have if you see yourself relocating at any point, rather than biting the bullet on utility 3ph. Usually replacing servo drives is an expensive affair that also costs in downtime, and thus not something you want to do any more than you have to.

 

[ToddW]

I'd buy a QO panel before I bought a HomeLine.

I'd also invest in a Phase Perfect if I was going to run anything CNC in production. In my experience servo drives which have to sink power back into the grid in various decel conditions are put in a bad situation with an RPC which has 2 strong legs and 1 weak leg with voltage all over the place depending on load. The P-P, despite being expensive, is something you take with you if you ever move, handy to have if you see yourself relocating at any point, rather than biting the bullet on utility 3ph. Usually replacing servo drives is an expensive affair that also costs in downtime, and thus not something you want to do any more than you have to.

Thanks!
Care to elaborate on the QO vs HomeLine?

Wow, good to know about phase perfect.. sounds awesome.
I'll check out the Phase Perfect, right now nothing 3PH is production or planned to be, but you never know
No CNC 3PH either, lathe and mill have some really old school DRO

 

[rockwithjason]

qo is more of a commercial type product. you can order them with push in or bolt on breakers.

it's good advice to check on the 10hp motor. your utility may require a soft starter or ban them all together.

 

[ToddW]

qo is more of a commercial type product. you can order them with push in or bolt on breakers.

it's good advice to check on the 10hp motor. your utility may require a soft starter or ban them all together.

I will do that before stepping anything up to 10HP

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks!
Care to elaborate on the QO vs HomeLine?

Wow, good to know about phase perfect.. sounds awesome.
I'll check out the Phase Perfect, right now nothing 3PH is production or planned to be, but you never know
No CNC 3PH either, lathe and mill have some really old school DRO

QO is better quality. QO is copper bus bars vs aluminum on the homeline.

Since you have that much load, you should really do a load calc on the shop and house to make sure 200a is enough for the present and future. You may find yourself needing more.

Apologies about the questioning of power requirements. Most people come on here saying they need 200a and all theyre gonna be running is a compressor welder and one person and end up getting by with 60a. you on the other hand have some serious load demands.

As someone who does network and server installs along with low voltage wiring such as ethernet and fiber optic cabling, why do u have 60u worth of servers? Thats either a lot of SANS and NASs or a lot of server power.

What are u running or hosting? And if hosting, what kind of internet do u have?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Apologies about the questioning of power requirements. Most people come on here saying they need 200a and all theyre gonna be running is a compressor welder and one person and end up getting by with 60a.

Same here !

"A bunch or server" usually means 3 or 4, not 60U rack space and you never mentioned anything about cooling before.

You are still going to spend a lot of money on wire and breakers. You should get the best which Square D QO.

Which 240v fused disconnect would you use? Do I need one at the house + shop for this or only at the house?

Your PoCo may be reluctant to install anything larger than a 320A feed. You need to sit down with your PoCo planner and find out what THEIR requirements are !

A friend of a friend who is a professional installed a similar setup. You want to start with something like a 400-Amp 8-space combination meter socket load center

Your ground rods connect here. Then you can run to 200A to the house and 200A to the out building. That means you need to run 4 wires after this point.

 

[ToddW]

QO is better quality. QO is copper bus bars vs aluminum on the homeline.

As someone who does network and server installs along with low voltage wiring such as ethernet and fiber optic cabling, why do u have 60u worth of servers? Thats either a lot of SANS and NASs or a lot of server power.

What are u running or hosting? And if hosting, what kind of internet do u have?

For business.

 

[ToddW]

Apologies about the questioning of power requirements. Most people come on here saying they need 200a and all theyre gonna be running is a compressor welder and one person and end up getting by with 60a. you on the other hand have some serious load demands.

No problem!

Don't get me wrong. I don't have disillusions about using 150A within the next year or so without CNC equipment, but once the big plasma is on CNC and I'm still tinkering around while it's running because even with AVHC I'm gonna keep an eye on it I have a hand-held Hypertherm45 for hand-cutting, I learned real quick last time that disconnecting it from the table and carting it around and then re-connecting for CNC just does not work!

Having lived off 30A and 50A 240V and swapping cables all the time and making sure I didn't accidentally start the compressor with a welder going (after grinding of course) I'm REALLY looking forward to "doing it right" and not really worrying about it with just me in there

Same here !

"A bunch or server" usually means 3 or 4, not 60U rack space and you never mentioned anything about cooling before.

You are still going to spend a lot of money on wire and breakers. Your PoCo may be reluctant to install anything larger than a 320A feed. A second feed will mean a second minimum monthly bill.

I think I spent around $1300 on 'internal' wiring/conduit/etc and that's what I'm working on during rainy days, and then the service run when I can afford the labor on top of the wire I plan to get ahead of time

You're correct as well, they won't give me a 2nd 200AMP that's separate without a 2nd bill, 2nd legal address, etc. That or 400AMP or 3PH was quoted starting at $15k but MAYBE down to $10k. It's a lot of money but if I'm using it for business it's justifiable, we'll see, only time can tell. I'm not that crazy to invest that much in hopes business goes that direction, or that I just may decide to move to full racks in a real datacenter in silicon valley, etc... too many variables.

I've got an elaborate datacenter`esque cooling system in mind Using fans for outside air, inside air, using the heat to heat my office next to datacenter, shop down stairs, etc. It will be a fun project itself. Going to start the Cooling/AC with a window AC I've had for years, it's small maybe around 8000 BTU but I would only need to actually cool during the summer months.

The only 220v in my house is my dryer and well pump, well pump is very low something like 3/4HP but 220v due to the depth, and dryer will be gas once this one stops working. Until recent billing method and rate changes we very rarely used >$75/mo in electricity no electric or gas heat, no electric range, etc...

I was going to DIY an outdoor wood burner for the shop but as luck would have it I got a big wood stove from the ol`railroad so that will go in my side building with some ducting into the shop, and office.

Depending on time and what else is on my plate next year I may DIY geothermal cooling, and if I end up powering on a bunch more servers we are def. looking into a 10KW Solar system with battery bank. It always seems talking about these plans puts them off for years to come last time due to becoming a daddy two times, and life in general has a way of interfering!! Trying to progress as much, and fast as possible so I can start enjoying working int he shop vs. hassling with extension cords, and having to unplug, and plug to use various things!!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

With all that u definitely need to do a load calc.

60u of servers, cooling(even window units) and all the shop equipment could definitely put u over 200a.

 

[anuccite]

With all that heat load in your "office" with the 60U rack and servers..... Don't forget to size cooling accordingly...

I'm a System Admin myself, and Know exactly where your coming from..... I've worked in some of IBM's biggest data centers, to some of the worst thought out "server" closets in the world.....

In the small scale (I'll say small scale, only because you are talking 1 rack) I've seen spaces the size of a small walk in closet with either a split system, or wall unit keeping it cool.... YMMV

Just saw this part..... So you may already have a plan!

"I've got an elaborate datacenter`esque cooling system in mind Using fans for outside air, inside air, using the heat to heat my office next to datacenter, shop down stairs, etc. It will be a fun project itself. Going to start the Cooling/AC with a window AC I've had for years, it's small maybe around 8000 BTU but I would only need to actually cool during the summer months."

 

[theoldwizard1]

In the small scale (I'll say small scale, only because you are talking 1 rack) I've seen spaces the size of a small walk in closet with either a split system, or wall unit keeping it cool.... YMMV

The last server room I was in charge of, was not "large" by any stretch. It only had room for about 5 tennis courts !! But it did have enough cooling for 5 ongoing doubles games !!!

 

[ToddW]

With all that heat load in your "office" with the 60U rack and servers..... Don't forget to size cooling accordingly...

I'm a System Admin myself, and Know exactly where your coming from..... I've worked in some of IBM's biggest data centers, to some of the worst thought out "server" closets in the world.....

In the small scale (I'll say small scale, only because you are talking 1 rack) I've seen spaces the size of a small walk in closet with either a split system, or wall unit keeping it cool.... YMMV

Just saw this part..... So you may already have a plan!

"I've got an elaborate datacenter`esque cooling system in mind Using fans for outside air, inside air, using the heat to heat my office next to datacenter, shop down stairs, etc. It will be a fun project itself. Going to start the Cooling/AC with a window AC I've had for years, it's small maybe around 8000 BTU but I would only need to actually cool during the summer months."

Yep, you got it!

I've seen others home setup 'closet style' with doors front/back and inside/outside air circulation options too.

It shouldn't be too big of an undertaking since starting off it will barely be any servers on at once, and I am looking forward to heating that office and venting it down to the shop too

Found some sound deadening matts when I was cleaning out the shop too, should make it nice and quiet too

 

[ToddW]

Here's a question... I was measuring for ordering my 3/0 wire and was wondering if it all 'had' to be buried.

I could shave off some distance, time, and money if I could run it in conduit under my deck. My panel on the house is about 1' to the right of being able to go 'under' the deck, then I could go back about 20' before angling to the shop, and avoid a huge mess of propane lines, water lines, and other electrical lines.

I will obviously ask the guy doing this install if that's ok.
BUT.


What's your guys opinion on running it like that?

Down out of main box.
1' left
Then under my mud-room, and then under my deck 20'
before going down, underground in front of the shop to the other side of the shop and up/out to the panel in the shop.

Thoughts?

 

[rockwithjason]

yes you can do that, provided you follow all of the rules.

 

[grantw]

Yep, you got it!

I've seen others home setup 'closet style' with doors front/back and inside/outside air circulation options too.

It shouldn't be too big of an undertaking since starting off it will barely be any servers on at once, and I am looking forward to heating that office and venting it down to the shop too

Found some sound deadening matts when I was cleaning out the shop too, should make it nice and quiet too

If you want quiet racks, look in to the APC NetShelter CX. We installed one in our IT LAB and had a few cisco UCS chassis in there. You wouldn't know it until the room started heating up. The cold air inlets are on the top of the rack, while the 120mm fans in the back can be adapted to duct out somewhere.

Ant to clarify an earlier post, most data centers use 208V three phase.

A few larger equipments in my racks had 6 power supplies, 2 for each phase bridge. (A-B , B-C, C-A)*2 I killed power on one for an annual redundancy test, and the data center techs came out a few minutes later due to a "huge" power fluctuation in my cage.

Don't let the others give you a hard time about your servers. If you really do go through major compute cycles, and can possibly GPU optimize, look at the Nvidia DGX-1

 

[ToddW]

If you want quiet racks, look in to the APC NetShelter CX. We installed one in our IT LAB and had a few cisco UCS chassis in there. You wouldn't know it until the room started heating up. The cold air inlets are on the top of the rack, while the 120mm fans in the back can be adapted to duct out somewhere.

Ant to clarify an earlier post, most data centers use 208V three phase.

A few larger equipments in my racks had 6 power supplies, 2 for each phase bridge. (A-B , B-C, C-A)*2 I killed power on one for an annual redundancy test, and the data center techs came out a few minutes later due to a "huge" power fluctuation in my cage.

Don't let the others give you a hard time about your servers. If you really do go through major compute cycles, and can possibly GPU optimize, look at the Nvidia DGX-1

I actually have a APC NetShelter not the silent one, but a really nice rack none the less.

For my 'mini-data center' project I'm actually using 3x 22U racks, so I can have them side by side, and a nice work/storage on top.

Id have preferred to go full 40U or however many the not so tall one is I have. The problem is my office where this will go has low ceilings and it's a few inches too short to fit the full height rack bummed me, more work, but these 22U racks are NICE. I forget who makes them, but they'll be under a 'bench' type setup, so I can do testing on top, have a console/screen, etc...

Once I get material I'll start a thread for the mini-DC build out.
Between the shop electrical and mini-DC build out, and other usual projects I'll be rather busy LOL!

 

[ToddW]

Which panel for the garage sub-panel would you go with?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...ad-Center-without-Cover-QO14060M200/204246799
Comes to $190 with the cover

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-204246799-_-204844633-_-N
2 more spaces + cover for $9 more than above (seems this is better value)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-204246799-_-204246794-_-N
Not sure why this cost so much more?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...eaker-Center-with-Cover-QO160M200PC/204246798
This one is probably a bit OVER KILL!! HAHA 60 Spaces!

 

[grantw]

I'd do the 60 space, but that is just me.

I got a siemens 40 space / 80 circuit wireguide load center. copper bus and even ordered a few extra round bars. the 4" gutter is what sold me, plus the whole wireguide deal.

Since it was for a house, I need to have a lot of arc-fault breakers, and the siemens wireguide breakers had a small neutral coil that slips right in to the slot on the panel, making for an ultra-clean install.

I'd opt for the 60 space, as most of the options you listed are 60 total circuits, you might as well keep everything on singles. Besides, it's a cheap investment to not run out of room later. worst case, before you run out of spaces, get a 100A breaker and a sub panel.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/8559a7b7a46...7584A0B3E8DDAA71A&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

 

[ToddW]

I'd do the 60 space, but that is just me.

I got a siemens 40 space / 80 circuit wireguide load center. copper bus and even ordered a few extra round bars. the 4" gutter is what sold me, plus the whole wireguide deal.

Since it was for a house, I need to have a lot of arc-fault breakers, and the siemens wireguide breakers had a small neutral coil that slips right in to the slot on the panel, making for an ultra-clean install.

I'd opt for the 60 space, as most of the options you listed are 60 total circuits, you might as well keep everything on singles. Besides, it's a cheap investment to not run out of room later. worst case, before you run out of spaces, get a 100A breaker and a sub panel.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/8559a7b7a46...7584A0B3E8DDAA71A&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

I'm not set specifically on the Square D QO -- just that those were better than what I'd previously looked at.

The 60 Space Square D QO I linked is only $120 more than what I was looking at so not a huge increase... but looking at your picture, man that is clean having it right there vs. up top.

How much is your model, and any other benefits? What is the model #?

Negatives? Like expensive breakers or hard to find locally?

Anyone else have input on this. I feel asking at Home Depot they will ONLY suggest waht they have, and anything beyond that is gonna be over a 2hr drive for me.

I only have 8'ft ceilings so I'm thinking a 4' panel may be a bit too tall though :-X

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-206602485-_-207158494-_-N

may be more suited for my need if I go Siemens.

 

[ToddW]

Leaning toward the Square D QO with the PLug On Neutral... stupid expensive breakers but less work, less hassle to be safer.

Model: QO154M200PC
54 Space / 54 Circuit
39.4" Tall -- Seems to be a good size / space between 40 and 60 space.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KHVLZVU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Opinions? I don't see copper in the picture but it says it's copper ??

Can this be surface mounted?

 

[ToddW]

Make sure to isolate the neutral bar in the sub panel.

Can I downsize the neutral wire since no 240v device has a neutral and most all heavy usage will be on 240v?

The biggest 120V load right now could be 30A if I run that temporarily until I get a different power supply/battery system for the servers. That's again possible load, not likely... and if I'm hitting 30A I can afford to go 240v battery/power system that will convert down to 120v for the actual computers but that likely would need 4-wire 240v not 3 so possible 50A 2 pole 240v spread over both legs is still lower than 30A on single leg, right?

I would see the largest 'neutral' utilized amp draw on one leg being 50A no matter if I use 120V @ 30A for office + the handful of 120v in the garage for lights, charging, and grinding (highest load device i'd have on 120v).

From what I read I CAN downsize if I calculate the 120v / neutral utilized load properly.

I think 3/0 neutral is just crazy, would #4 be too small though that should handle nearly 100 AMP @ 100' safely, right?

Even 1/0 would save $100 vs 3/0 and be easier to deal with... what would you guys do?

The sub-panel and building already have a separate grounding rod.

 

[matt_i]

Down out of main box.
1' left
Then under my mud-room, and then under my deck 20'
before going down, underground in front of the shop to the other side of the shop and up/out to the panel in the shop.

Thoughts?

Wait, so you are going to run the conduit ~under~ the building's concrete floor to come up on the far side of it? I'm probably not understanding correctly but I would get into the closest side of the shop and then run the conduit overhead inside the structure to the panel. I wouldn't bury an inaccessible conduit under a building. Driveway yes, but not a structure.

 

[ToddW]

Wait, so you are going to run the conduit ~under~ the building's concrete floor to come up on the far side of it? I'm probably not understanding correctly but I would get into the closest side of the shop and then run the conduit overhead inside the structure to the panel. I wouldn't bury an inaccessible conduit under a building. Driveway yes, but not a structure.

Sorry, it's not a concrete floor. The mud room is "on" the deck essentially. Imagine a deck with an enclosed room. For instance my 1 gutter drain goes under the room, deck, along back of house under rest of deck, and drains away from house.

___Mud Room___|Concrete Foundation For House|

The house main panel is about 1' to the right of the left | (where foundation starts) in the above crappy simple diagram.

I'd want to go down, and to left, and then back/under the mud room.

 

[rockwithjason]

what was that about "do it once, do it right?" use a full size neutral and never have a problem again.

in order to apply the reduction you would have to calculate the total unbalance load for the building and multiply by 140% and even then you might run afoul of the rules because of your data processing equipment as special rules apply there. save yourself a lot of hassle and don't overthink this.

 

[rockwithjason]

["Leaning toward the Square D QO with the PLug On Neutral... stupid expensive breakers but less work, less hassle to be safer.

Model: QO154M200PC
54 Space / 54 Circuit
39.4" Tall -- Seems to be a good size / space between 40 and 60 space.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KHVLZVU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Opinions? I don't see copper in the picture but it says it's copper ??

Can this be surface mounted"

plug on neutrals only save work if you are using gfci or afci breakers. they don't save any work if you are using regular breakers. this panel is surface or flush mount

 

[ToddW]

what was that about "do it once, do it right?" use a full size neutral and never have a problem again.

in order to apply the reduction you would have to calculate the total unbalance load for the building and multiply by 140% and even then you might run afoul of the rules because of your data processing equipment as special rules apply there. save yourself a lot of hassle and don't overthink this.

Yeah, for $100 or so more seems like I should the electronics/servers def. seem to need the neutral based onwhat I read, some weird data loss, boot problems, etc, if not sized right.

Wish I would have just ordered it with the other 3/0, at-least free shipping still

["Leaning toward the Square D QO with the PLug On Neutral... stupid expensive breakers but less work, less hassle to be safer.

Model: QO154M200PC
54 Space / 54 Circuit
39.4" Tall -- Seems to be a good size / space between 40 and 60 space.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KHVLZVU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Opinions? I don't see copper in the picture but it says it's copper ??

Can this be surface mounted"

plug on neutrals only save work if you are using gfci or afci breakers. they don't save any work if you are using regular breakers. this panel is surface or flush mount

Yeah, $40 instead of $8 -- but it takes both either way.

Are people running GFCI and AFCI CBs in their shop/garage without them tripping all the time ??? I mean, it IS safer but is it something I'm going to HATE having?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Leaning toward the Square D QO with the PLug On Neutral... stupid expensive breakers but less work, less hassle to be safer.

Square D QO breakers are available EVERYWHERE. I found a brand new box of QO 120V 15A for less than 1/2 the price of retail on eBay.

Can this be surface mounted?

The one in the picture appear to be a surface mount.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah, for $100 or so more seems like I should the electronics/servers def. seem to need the neutral based onwhat I read, some weird data loss, boot problems, etc, if not sized right.

Wish I would have just ordered it with the other 3/0, at-least free shipping still



Yeah, $40 instead of $8 -- but it takes both either way.

Are people running GFCI and AFCI CBs in their shop/garage without them tripping all the time ??? I mean, it IS safer but is it something I'm going to HATE having?

Dont waste your money on AFCIs

 

[theoldwizard1]

Can I downsize the neutral wire since no 240v device has a neutral and most all heavy usage will be on 240v?

240V appliances may or may NOT have a neutral. Dryer and stoves do, because they have 120V accessories (timers, lights, fans, etc).

Compressors, welders, etc. do not have those "accessories", so they only require 2 hots + ground.


The rest of your discussion you have lost me. Under SOME conditions where you have a lot of 240V (2 wire) loads, you can reduce the size of the neutral wire. I strongly suggest that you hire a professional to go over your electrical plans.


A lot of 240V electronics will split that into 2 - 120V legs, internally, so they DO require a neutral. As a matter of fact, most will NOT power up until they "sense" both neutral AND ground !