Wire needed for service?
- Thread starter ToddW
- Start date
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
I am not exactly what you are talking about, but the last server room I worked in, all of the computer outlet used isolated ground receptacle (IGR) (orange).Yeah, for $100 or so more seems like I shouldthe electronics/servers def. seem to need the neutral based onwhat I read, some weird data loss, boot problems, etc, if not sized right.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall, IGRs required a separated, INSULATED (green) ground wire from the actual receptacle, un-broken, un-spliced all the way back to the ground bar in the load center. The ground pin is ISOLATED from the frame of the receptacle and the box that the receptacle is mounted in.
rockwithjason
Well-known member
its not that they are not good, it's that they are not necessary. afci protection is required in dwelling units in places like bedrooms (possibly more places now, I would have to look it up). gfi protection is required in garages but for 9 bucks or so you can use gfci receptacles.
I would only use a plug on neutral panel where I would expect to use afci breakers or lots of gfci breakers. I would use a standard panel everywhere else
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rockwithjason
Well-known member
igr isn't used very much anymore in my experience. it does require a separate, insulated conductor that terminates at the ground bus in the main panel for the building. it can be spliced or terminated on an igr bar in sub panels. igr is in addition to the regular equipment ground.
grantw
Well-known member
This is exactly what I got. I like it. Full length neutrals and wireguide will help keep it all clean.
Downside, breakers don't cost more than others, but HD doesn't stock siemens gear where I am at. I had to order online for breakers. There was one vendor on amazon with prime delivery, so maybe that will work out for you? The other bit is shipping of the panel to Home depot, my first one got bent up pretty bad from UPS, while the second one was only a very minor bend corrected by a 24" clamp.
Home Depot and UPS are a bad combination.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
AFCIs are snake oil.
There is no evidence that they actually have prevented fires.
Many believe its a case of the manufacturers inventing a solution to a problem that didnt exist and puahing the code making panels to require them.
GFCIs on the other hand HAVE prevented catastrophe and ARE required for your application.
Save some money and buy just the GFCIs.
That is correct.
IGRs require 2 ground wires- one insulated that runs back to either the main service panel or an insulated ground bus bar in a subpanel and a second ground wire for the equipment ground.
Yes the ground prong on IGRs arent bonded to the yoke of the receptacle.
NCR required ALL McDonalds restaurants to upgrade all outlets for computers (registers) and servers to twist lock IGRs back in 2010 for warranty purposes. I wired quite a few of the restaurants in the bay area.
Most of us electricians who were also computer/network techs thought it was overkill but werent complaining since it was tons of work.
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radio63
Member
Quick question here: Are Square D QO PON Panels able to use standard QO (NON-PON) breakers in them? I'll be installing a panel in my garage in the future, and I have always used Square D QO's. Just wanted to clarify that the PON panels are compatible with standard QO breakers. Thanks for any info!
Orionrising
Well-known member
Quick question here: Are Square D QO PON Panels able to use standard QO (NON-PON) breakers in them? I'll be installing a panel in my garage in the future, and I have always used Square D QO's. Just wanted to clarify that the PON panels are compatible with standard QO breakers. Thanks for any info!
yes, thats what i have, because it was a cheap reasonable sized QO panel and I have 0 PON breakers.
radio63
Member
Thanks Orionrising! I kind of thought so but wasn't able to find any definite info on that, so had a slight doubt in the back of my mind. Thanks for helping!
To wrap this up..
3/0 hot wires (2)
3/0 white neutral wire
#4 green wire going (2) 1 each to a ground electrode
#6 green wire back to main panel ground
For the ground electrode at the shop / sub-panel. I currently have only 1, and it' sticking up about 2'. My understanding is I would want to get this down to flush / near flush with ground, and install 2 of them approx 8' apart, is there any reason to do additional or put 1 on opposite side of building, or could I put both at back of building? Right now they're kind of in the way on the side I work/use.
3/0 hot wires (2)
3/0 white neutral wire
#4 green wire going (2) 1 each to a ground electrode
#6 green wire back to main panel ground
For the ground electrode at the shop / sub-panel. I currently have only 1, and it' sticking up about 2'. My understanding is I would want to get this down to flush / near flush with ground, and install 2 of them approx 8' apart, is there any reason to do additional or put 1 on opposite side of building, or could I put both at back of building? Right now they're kind of in the way on the side I work/use.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
wire to rods max size is #6. Use bare solid copper #6.
EGC going back to main panel can be #6 for 200a. to be code compliant it must be green insulated.
rod should be pounded flush.
unless u can prove 25ohms or less resistance to earth, to be code compliant 2 are required. space min 6' apart.
brewchief01
Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2015
- Messages
- 14
Wire to the ground rods should be one continuous length with no splices
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
http://www.buildmyowncabin.com/nec/nec2014_table250.66.html
Where are you getting #6 for the rod wire size? Everything I'm finding is #4 when using 3/0, and #6 ground back to main panel.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
There is an exception that says max wire size to rods is #6.
Dont have my book on me to copy and paste it.
I got one of these last year, but never installed it on my main panel on the house:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CONA1OQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Should I run 1 on the house or 1 on the shop or both? Worth it or snake oil and hassle to deal with?
Also, looks like my main panel on the house won't let me install a 200A CB so I'm going to have to double-up the main lugs and run a fused disconnect there next to the main panel.
Which do I want? Prices from $100ish to almost $500!! YIKES
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-20...General-Duty-Safety-Switch-DG224NRK/202275985
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052MFWM2/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-Type-BR-200-Amp-2-Pole-Circuit-Breaker/3047900
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PSN6FQM/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CONA1OQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Should I run 1 on the house or 1 on the shop or both? Worth it or snake oil and hassle to deal with?
Also, looks like my main panel on the house won't let me install a 200A CB so I'm going to have to double-up the main lugs and run a fused disconnect there next to the main panel.
Which do I want? Prices from $100ish to almost $500!! YIKES
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-20...General-Duty-Safety-Switch-DG224NRK/202275985
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052MFWM2/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-Type-BR-200-Amp-2-Pole-Circuit-Breaker/3047900
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PSN6FQM/?tag=atomicindus08-20
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pattenp
Well-known member
The 2 rods are to be connected by one wire back to the panel with the 2 rods at least 6ft apart from each other along that wire. The wire from the panel to the first rod must be continuous but the second rod may be connected to the first rod using a separate piece of wire using a second clamp on the first rod. Or obviously use one continuous piece of wire through to the second rod. Do not connect the two rods separately on their own wires back to the panel.
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A late comment, but QO is plug-in and QOB is bolt-on, a QO loadcenter accepts plug-in breakers only, NQOB panelboards accept either plug-in or bolt-on breakers, which is a nice feature, the now obsolete Cutler-Hammer PB panelboard also used either plug-in or bolt-on breakers, (CH or CHB), but a panelboard in a residential setting is spending more money then necessary.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
What do u mean by double up the main lugs?
Do u mean u need dual lugs so u can feed two 200a loads off of one original set of lugs or wire?
None of those disconnects have dual load side lugs.
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Sorry, maybe I described it wrong.
Where in the current main panel you replace the main connection so you can do dual lugs, since that panel can't accommodate a 200A CB. Incoming power from meter to dual lug connection 1, connection 2 wire goes to one of above I linked.
Meter --> Dual Lug #1 --> House Panel
Meter --> Dual Lug #2 --> External 200A Fused Disconnect --> (New) Panel In Shop
Not sure if there would be a 3rd for neutral as well?
That's my understand, correct me if I'm wrong
http://mechanicallugs.com/index.php/two-wire-lugs.html
https://lugsdirect.com/double-wire-lugs.htm
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
What type of main service panel do u have? Combo meter/main disconnect? Or divorced meter and main service panel?
It's a sie-by-side unit, I think they're 'one' unit though.
Left Box is setup Like this
------------
| 200 AB
------------
| METER
------------
| Service Wire
--------------
And then on the RIGHT I have all my CBs, and top incoming wire from the 200A CB. It's a old GE Panel, but it now has a 'smart meter' on it
Left Box is setup Like this
------------
| 200 AB
------------
| METER
------------
| Service Wire
--------------
And then on the RIGHT I have all my CBs, and top incoming wire from the 200A CB. It's a old GE Panel, but it now has a 'smart meter' on it
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
U have whats called a meter main or combo panel.
The only thing u could do with that is IF there is a kit, u could add lugs to the bus bars on the load side of the main breaker.
I looked through your thread but dont see any pics of the panel.
Can u take some with the covers on and off and post them here.
Whats the panel model #?
The only thing u could do with that is IF there is a kit, u could add lugs to the bus bars on the load side of the main breaker.
I looked through your thread but dont see any pics of the panel.
Can u take some with the covers on and off and post them here.
Whats the panel model #?
penright
ALLIANCE MEMBER
@wyliesdiesels, I know you probably know this, just more for general FYI I posted this more because recently has become dear to my heart.
It's funny that I came across this post. I was the tech guy trying to explain the "over kill". I now mange the Point of Sale for quick service. We have right at 2000 terminals. I have not had to mess with quality of electrical supply since the 80's. I am sure a lot has changed. But because of the recent issues, I'm back....
I never heard of running two grounds. Most conduit in those days was metal. Some even supplied the ground (ie no ground wire), but they all (grounds) were bonded together. The IG isolated the ground lug from the parts that could come in contact with the metal box.
We required a separate circuit back to the building ground. It had to have it's own Hot, neutral, and ground. If the outlet was not IG, then the ground could be" whatever the conduit was, depending on circumstances.
Most of the neutral sizing had to do with the feed for it's phases.
Here is a snippet from this artical oversizing neutral wiring
In modern facilities the neutral wring should always be specified to be the same capacity as the power wiring (or larger). This is in contrast to the electrical codes which may permit undersizing the neutral wire. An appropriate design in the case of a large Personal Computer load like a call center is to specify the neutral wiring to exceed the phase wire capacity by about 50%. Particular attention should be paid to wiring in office cubicles. This protects the building wiring, but does not help protect the transformers.
Back in the day when loads tended to be resistive, for the same amp draw on different phases on the same neutral would tend to cancel each other out. So when one phase hot was more positive and it's neutral was more negative. Then the other hot would be more negative and the neutral would be more positive. The negative and positives tending to cancel each other out as long as the load (amps) were the same. When computers came along with the switching power supply, that mess things up. You would go from full power to nothing several times a second. So the neutral could not count on that balance, hence the harmonics.
All this maybe more than you care, just I am having to get more involved in some issues and it just made some old brain cells fire.
It's funny that I came across this post. I was the tech guy trying to explain the "over kill". I now mange the Point of Sale for quick service. We have right at 2000 terminals. I have not had to mess with quality of electrical supply since the 80's. I am sure a lot has changed. But because of the recent issues, I'm back....
I never heard of running two grounds. Most conduit in those days was metal. Some even supplied the ground (ie no ground wire), but they all (grounds) were bonded together. The IG isolated the ground lug from the parts that could come in contact with the metal box.
We required a separate circuit back to the building ground. It had to have it's own Hot, neutral, and ground. If the outlet was not IG, then the ground could be" whatever the conduit was, depending on circumstances.
Most of the neutral sizing had to do with the feed for it's phases.
Here is a snippet from this artical oversizing neutral wiring
In modern facilities the neutral wring should always be specified to be the same capacity as the power wiring (or larger). This is in contrast to the electrical codes which may permit undersizing the neutral wire. An appropriate design in the case of a large Personal Computer load like a call center is to specify the neutral wiring to exceed the phase wire capacity by about 50%. Particular attention should be paid to wiring in office cubicles. This protects the building wiring, but does not help protect the transformers.
Back in the day when loads tended to be resistive, for the same amp draw on different phases on the same neutral would tend to cancel each other out. So when one phase hot was more positive and it's neutral was more negative. Then the other hot would be more negative and the neutral would be more positive. The negative and positives tending to cancel each other out as long as the load (amps) were the same. When computers came along with the switching power supply, that mess things up. You would go from full power to nothing several times a second. So the neutral could not count on that balance, hence the harmonics.
All this maybe more than you care, just I am having to get more involved in some issues and it just made some old brain cells fire.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
yes i did.
I just replied back
@wyliesdiesels, I know you probably know this, just more for general FYI I posted this more because recently has become dear to my heart.
It's funny that I came across this post. I was the tech guy trying to explain the "over kill". I now mange the Point of Sale for quick service. We have right at 2000 terminals. I have not had to mess with quality of electrical supply since the 80's. I am sure a lot has changed. But because of the recent issues, I'm back....
I never heard of running two grounds. Most conduit in those days was metal. Some even supplied the ground (ie no ground wire), but they all (grounds) were bonded together. The IG isolated the ground lug from the parts that could come in contact with the metal box.
We required a separate circuit back to the building ground. It had to have it's own Hot, neutral, and ground. If the outlet was not IG, then the ground could be" whatever the conduit was, depending on circumstances.
Most of the neutral sizing had to do with the feed for it's phases.
Here is a snippet from this artical oversizing neutral wiring
In modern facilities the neutral wring should always be specified to be the same capacity as the power wiring (or larger). This is in contrast to the electrical codes which may permit undersizing the neutral wire. An appropriate design in the case of a large Personal Computer load like a call center is to specify the neutral wiring to exceed the phase wire capacity by about 50%. Particular attention should be paid to wiring in office cubicles. This protects the building wiring, but does not help protect the transformers.
Back in the day when loads tended to be resistive, for the same amp draw on different phases on the same neutral would tend to cancel each other out. So when one phase hot was more positive and it's neutral was more negative. Then the other hot would be more negative and the neutral would be more positive. The negative and positives tending to cancel each other out as long as the load (amps) were the same. When computers came along with the switching power supply, that mess things up. You would go from full power to nothing several times a second. So the neutral could not count on that balance, hence the harmonics.
All this maybe more than you care, just I am having to get more involved in some issues and it just made some old brain cells fire.
Yes 3rd and especially 5th harmonics can cause damage.
Ah, winter flooding and insane storms put this project on hold until spring! And then spring hit and it was time for 100 other more important projects for the farm... more water capacity, more fenced fields, etc... also ended up trenching almost 200' from the house and ran 2" and two 1" conduits in the trench. Working on setting up conduit and pulling wire for my 60A RV Panel, and then will get back to the main 200a feeder to the shop/office/servers.
After the near 200' run across the front yard, to the top of my driveway the 120' run to the shop with almost half above ground the wire run/conduit doesn't seem nearly as big of a project now ha ha!!
After the near 200' run across the front yard, to the top of my driveway the 120' run to the shop with almost half above ground the wire run/conduit doesn't seem nearly as big of a project now ha ha!!