Wire Nuts, pre-twist vs. not

[Treeman]

Not to hijack the stranded vs. solid wire thread..... (you are correct, Torque1st.)

I am intrigued by the amount of controversy surrounding the idea of pre-twisting wires when using wire nuts. Google this, and go to the forums frequented by professional trades people, and you will discover two VERY different schools of thought regarding this topic.....huge differences between different areas of the country, young vs. old, etc..

- Some claim that twisting is a throwback to the old barrel type connectors and today's spring loaded nuts are a different/better product....old school vs. new school.

- Some claim in their area, everyone pre-twists......others say that no one pre-twists.

- Others claim that the problem with either method can be due to operator error and either method can fail if done improperly....and both have equal success if done correct. Both sides claim that the "other" method requires more skill......i.e., a poor executed pretwist is worse than no twist.

Its very much like the arguments of soldering vs. crimped connectors and plumbers arguing that pipe dope doesn't seal a thread, thread design does. Please start another thread for these topics.

Anyone care to debate/debunk this pretwisting controversy?

 

[walrus]

Not to hijack the stranded vs. solid wire thread..... (you are correct, Torque1st.)

I am intrigued by the amount of controversy surrounding the idea of pre-twisting wires when using wire nuts. Google this, and go to the forums frequented by professional trades people, and you will discover two VERY different schools of thought regarding this topic.....huge differences between different areas of the country, young vs. old, etc..

- Some claim that twisting is a throwback to the old barrel type connectors and today's spring loaded nuts are a different/better product....old school vs. new school.

- Some claim in their area, everyone pre-twists......others say that no one pre-twists.

- Others claim that the problem with either method can be due to operator error and either method can fail if done improperly....and both have equal success if done correct. Both sides claim that the "other" method requires more skill......i.e., a poor executed pretwist is worse than no twist.

Its very much like the arguments of soldering vs. crimped connectors and plumbers arguing that pipe dope doesn't seal a thread, thread design does. Please start another thread for these topics.

Anyone care to debate/debunk this pretwisting controversy?

How are you going to debunk it, I posted the instructions from a Jar of Ideal wire nuts and I was told they don't matter.

 

[nadogail]

Lets face it, both methods work if they are done correctly.

Arguments about which one is better is a poor use of bandwidth.

 

[rsanter]

I am not sure it makes a difference, but for me I twist them if I can or need to.
need to? I mean that it holds the wires together where I want them enough that it assures that they get wire nutted as I wanted them to

bob

 

[Aceman]

Lets face it, both methods work if they are done correctly.

Arguments about which one is better is a poor use of bandwidth.

I agree.

If professionals can't come to an agreement, what makes you think this forum will be any different?

 

[Torque1st]

I have just seen two many wire nut joints fail where there are three wires or more and one wire ends up not getting twisted and then slips out over time. Pre-twisting allows a good electrician to visually confirm ALL the wires are twisted together before the nut is applied to provide pressure and insulation. All of you "only nutters" can continue with your shoddy work if you want. No skin off my nose. You certainly would not work on any project I am involved in tho.

 

[walrus]

You have to love it when following manufacturers instructions is called shoddy work.

 

[Torque1st]

The manufacturer's instructions are just like the NEC, -a minimum just to get by...

 

[alkemyst]

regardless of pretwisting or not I always pull test my connection.

I have had the plastic covering fall right off once.

 

[RobSmith]

What in the hell are 'wire nuts' If I think they are what I've seen....little plastic caps that you screw over a twisted up 'joint' of a pair of wires. You deserve your building being burnt down due to an electrical fault. Use BP connectors at least. If you have never heard of BP connectors. They are a small brass tube with a grub screw on the side that crushes the two wires together ( twisted of course) all encased in a plastic thimble. These things last forever. I have removed these from circuits installed in the 1940s' and they were still good.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

Old school electricians also put electrical tape around the open end of the wire nuts after they were attached. I guess they didn't trust them back then.

 

[Treeman]

Robsmith, you are wrong. Wire nuts is a medical condition that can only be cured by getting laid. I wonder if wire nuts down under are to be turned counter clockwise?

Thanks everyone for the input. I can understand that pre-twisting is better, but I cannot understand that the NEC and the nut manufacturers would risk liability if non-twisting didn't work.

 

[malibu101]

Thanks everyone for the input. I can understand that pre-twisting is better, but I cannot understand that the NEC and the nut manufacturers would risk liability if non-twisting didn't work.

NEC is bare minimum requirements.
Apperantly, the manufacturer of the wirenuts gained UL approval without the need to pre-twist.
The above means that while it is a recognized method to not pre-twist, that does not mean it is the only or best way of doing it.

 

[MisterCMK]

What in the hell are 'wire nuts' If I think they are what I've seen....little plastic caps that you screw over a twisted up 'joint' of a pair of wires. You deserve your building being burnt down due to an electrical fault. Use BP connectors at least. If you have never heard of BP connectors. They are a small brass tube with a grub screw on the side that crushes the two wires together ( twisted of course) all encased in a plastic thimble. These things last forever. I have removed these from circuits installed in the 1940s' and they were still good.

You obviously don't know what they are talking about in this thread.

 

[Coach James]

What in the hell are 'wire nuts' If I think they are what I've seen....little plastic caps that you screw over a twisted up 'joint' of a pair of wires. You deserve your building being burnt down due to an electrical fault. Use BP connectors at least. If you have never heard of BP connectors. They are a small brass tube with a grub screw on the side that crushes the two wires together ( twisted of course) all encased in a plastic thimble. These things last forever. I have removed these from circuits installed in the 1940s' and they were still good.

If that's true, nearly every building I've ever seen being built, commercial and residential, deserves to burn down.

 

[walrus]

but I cannot understand that the NEC and the nut manufacturers would risk liability if non-twisting didn't work.

Because they don't find it better????

 

[Torque1st]

UL listings are fairly meaningless. I have had several products go thru UL evaluation and testing. I have seen absolute **** fly thru the examination and great products fail because of some arcane meaningless requirement. Look at all the stuff at Harbor Freight that has a UL listing. I was lucky and all of my items passed. Personally I look for the CSA or VDE etc stamps.

 

[walrus]

NEC is bare minimum requirements.
Apperantly, the manufacturer of the wirenuts gained UL approval without the need to pre-twist.
The above means that while it is a recognized method to not pre-twist, that does not mean it is the only or best way of doing it.

Does the NEC talk about pretwisting and wire nuts?

 

[south pier garage]

What in the hell are 'wire nuts' If I think they are what I've seen....little plastic caps that you screw over a twisted up 'joint' of a pair of wires. You deserve your building being burnt down due to an electrical fault. Use BP connectors at least. If you have never heard of BP connectors. They are a small brass tube with a grub screw on the side that crushes the two wires together ( twisted of course) all encased in a plastic thimble. These things last forever. I have removed these from circuits installed in the 1940s' and they were still good.

these sound like "mars" connectors which have been outlawed from the NEC for at least 30 years. wire can expand & contract as load (=heat) is applied and stopped. the screw loosens, wires loosen & arc.

generally, if stranded wire is being joined, two wires are twisted together clockwise, and a wirenut screwed on the same direction. if there are 3 stranded wires, 2 get twisted and the third gets wrapped around them and wirenut put on.

solid wire (Romex for example) gets the insulation stripped same as stranded, but does not get twisted together. the wirenut is screwed on and in doing so, with lineman's pliers not finger tight!, the individual conductors twist together.


BTW: electricity is not a hobby.......

 

[south pier garage]

Old school electricians also put electrical tape around the open end of the wire nuts after they were attached. I guess they didn't trust them back then.

the ends or wire, and other connections such as the Western Union Splice, were also soldered together and wrapped with cloth electrical ("friction") tape.


but we have made some advances since - thank goodness

 

[Ggg]

T1st I agree a UL listing is a joke.
walrus- I do realize NEC does not recognize pre-twisting for wirenuts, but it does recognize it for soldering and in Western Union connections. Also NEC stds. are a minimum.

 

[Treeman]

BTW: electricity is not a hobby.......

I love that quote. Also the one that says if you mess up with plumbing, you get wet. If you mess up with electricity, you die.

What troubles me is when I go to the effort to hire a licensed, professional trades person and the work is done shoddy. It is so common. Most recently, a friends house caught fire because wood framing was touching their double wall wood furnace chimney....done by the contractor 20 years ago. The wood "carbonized" and finally ignited. Even the inspectors missed it.

Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[walrus]

Most recently, a friends house caught fire because wood framing was touching their double wall wood furnace chimney....done by the contractor 20 years ago. The wood "carbonized" and finally ignited. Even the inspectors missed it.

Thanks everyone for the input.

I'm impressed that it took that long, SS chimney is pretty good I guess

 

[Torque1st]

-snip-
What troubles me is when I go to the effort to hire a licensed, professional trades person and the work is done shoddy. It is so common. -snip-

They do it because it is quicker and saves them time. The manufacturer's instructions are the same for all of the manufacturer's because if one of them said to pre-twist they would not be able to sell to those "time saving" "licensed professional trades persons". Those same trades persons can not admit that pre-twisting is better because it would open them to liability for all of the places they have not done it. Time, money, and legal liability for monetary damages... It all adds up the same. Doing the job properly is the reason many of us try to do our own work even if it does not pay and we make other mistakes. We still try tho.

 

[nadogail]

After doing a repair job in a 45 year old house, I have concluded that twisting or not to twist depends onthe situation.

I replaced an old receptacle today, the wire in the box was too short to convieniently make up to the new receptacle and the circuit was "daisey chained" using the receptacle as a tie point. I "sort of" straightened out the solid conductors that had were under the screws and added a pigtail to the new receptacle. The solid conductors were not straight enough to join to the pigtail in a wire nut, but twisting them together and trimming the wires made the joining easy.

No, I am not one of those who advocates adding tape to a wire nuted connection.

 

[MisterCMK]

No, I am not one of those who advocates adding tape to a wire nuted connection.

Adding tape simply makes a mess.

 

[alkemyst]

I need to rewire my workshop soon...as a plus the previous owner used 4 wire romex probably capable of 100 amps everywhere ...as a con he pulled each run about as tight as you can make it between boxes. To be more clear, you unscrew a box face and it's impossible to move the receptacle at all

I recently repainted my steel workbench and must have torqued the one lead to an outlet. None of my battery chargers were working. a Multimeter showed voltage positive and negative and slight on ground! Neutral was dead...I went to loosen the receptacle and got zapped.

There was a lead that snapped off the back of the outlet and was touching the bench. I had to cut back the romex to get it out and then pigtailed in a new lead in and out of the outlet. I installed a plastic box behind the receptacle so this may not happen again (plus having an exposed outlet I don't think is code anymore the workbench was designed to have exposed outlets though.

When I get my tablesaw put together I need to run a new outlet on that side of the shop and will redo the rest. Fortunately my shop is open walls.

 

[walrus]

No, I am not one of those who advocates adding tape to a wire nuted connection.

I do it in a piece of equipment that vibrates. Peckerhead of a motor, etc.

 

[south pier garage]

....unscrew a box face and it's impossible to move the receptacle at all ....

i think the code says: 6" in the box (to attach the device, i.e., receptacle, switch, et al)

less than that and you cannot remove the device (as you have found out) and much more and the box gets too full (of wire) to install the device.

 

[nadogail]

I do it in a piece of equipment that vibrates. Peckerhead of a motor, etc.

In a situation like you have described, putting lugs on the conductors and bolting them together is appropriate. Lacking this, use split bolt connectors as an alternative.

 

[alkemyst]

I am not an electrician, but I have worked with wires...

that said my biggest issue with pretwisting is many do so and it's too small for the nuts.

Now maybe HD/Lowes/etc sells the 'wrong' ones...I don't know.

I have pre-twisted and not and had equal failures in my experience. I always pull test my connections prior to turning back on the juice.

 

[ilikebeer]

I didn't really see anyone say it but, a good quality wire nut such as Ideal does a great job no mater what. I've used generics and the inside sleeves twists apart before you get any *** into twisting the wires tight.

 

[protoolman]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this since I am new here but here's my take on this: I worked as an apprentice electrician for a while with a master electrician who insisted all the wires be pre-twisted with pliers prior to the nut being threaded on. After unscrewing a few of his pre-twisted connections I found he was nicking and damaging the wires in doing so in some cases with 4 solid wires for instance, that he was actually breaking one of the wires. I started not pre-twisting and found my splices were stronger and in better shape later when unscrewed for whatever reason. For me its no pre twist from now on. Just one opinion.

 

[Torque1st]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this since I am new here but here's my take on this: I worked as an apprentice electrician for a while with a master electrician who insisted all the wires be pre-twisted with pliers prior to the nut being threaded on. After unscrewing a few of his pre-twisted connections I found he was nicking and damaging the wires in doing so in some cases with 4 solid wires for instance, that he was actually breaking one of the wires. I started not pre-twisting and found my splices were stronger and in better shape later when unscrewed for whatever reason. For me its no pre twist from now on. Just one opinion.

I don't know how anyone would nick and break wires by pre-twisting. The portion that gets held in the lineman's pliers is cut off.

 

[nate379]

I don't twist, but I use good nuts and put some *** into them when tightening them. Could hang a swing off the wire after if I wanted.

 

[Torque1st]

I don't twist, but I use good nuts and put some *** into them when tightening them. Could hang a swing off the wire after if I wanted.

Maybe a doll swing...

 

[sberry]

I didn't really see anyone say it but, a good quality wire nut such as Ideal does a great job no mater what. I've used generics and the inside sleeves twists apart before you get any *** into twisting the wires tight.

The reason I dont like Scotch brand.
I am with Protool here, I never twist and have taken hundreds apart. Its just plain simple care when fitting that makes the difference, they are as good as molded together when done right. I like them laying along side each other and letting the connector "swedge" them together. Its not sloppy and its not a hobby either.

 

[sberry]

I make the strips kind of long and by the time I am done they are twisted. Millions of these connections installed every day, verey few fail, usually only from the limp wristed.

 

[Torque1st]

I make the strips kind of long and by the time I am done they are twisted. Millions of these connections installed every day, verey few fail, usually only from the limp wristed.

If you are implying I and others are limp wristed for some reason then you can go to hell.

Why take a chance on a connection when there is a better method and a way to visually inspect your work?

I have seen many failed connections from the wire nut only method and one fire that was identifiable. There were probably many others that were too burned to tell. It is a professional electrician's job to make sure there are no electrical fires from bad connections. Unfortunately all to often they fail to do the job.

 

[sberry]

If you are implying I and others are limp wrist-ed for some reason then you can go to hell.

I didn't imply you were or weren't but thats where the failed connections come from or poorly aligned wires. You are certain that they will fail? I am with Nate here, I am betting you wouldn't hang by the neck to prove us wrong if we sent a piece of romex or 2 to test.