Wire stuck in plastic conduit

[jimindm]

I think I did it this time. I usually figure out a way to fix screw ups, but I am not sure there is an easy solutions to this.

Built a garage 25 years ago, at the time I ran direct burial wire for the phone, large plastic conduit for the power, and a small plastic conduit, that at the time was just cable tv coax. NG line in the bottom

15 years ago we added on and all of it is kind of in the same spot and has worked OK. A few years ago the wife smacked the smaller conduit coming out of the ground with the mower and snapped it. Late fall, just put some good rubberized tape on it, and put it on my list of chores.

Last year we improved that whole side of the house with landscaping and a retaining wall. Not a tall wall, but a few feet high. Thought then I should fix that, but did not.

I work full time in the garage turning wrenches. Most every information system, is now subscription based. Have used wifi for a while, but with three older teens and a mother using wifi on every known application there is, it get real slow at times.

Even on wifi, any streaming is slow, and I just felt like if I invested in information software, I should hardwire it.

A few months ago the cable in the garage went kind of screwy and the repair guy said it is the older wiring and needed upgrading. The phone started acting up, and I just switched around some of the wires and got it fixed.

That leads me to my problem. I decided this was the weekend to do it. Pulled the cable wire out, fixed the conduit connection and thought I would run 2 cat 6 and a newer version of coax for cable. It is half inch conduit, wires were tight but would push mostly easy and a few times got hard.

First try I had just mason line hooked to the end, and it pulled good until it stopped. Eventually I snapped the mason line and pulled everything out for the night. Today I pushed a fish tape through with no problem and bought that little adaptor that resembles chinese fingers. Thought I would try from the other end.

It went about twelve feet and stopped. Kind of gave some good yanks and it just plain would not move. Like yesterday, it went very easy, until it did not move.

Well in my quest to pull it back out or just yank a little more, it popped. I pulled on the wire side and had the wires in my hand. No coax connector, and no chinese finger attachment. Pulled on the fish tape and ended up with a straightened tip.

I sure would like to finish this project. Even thought maybe just running one leg of cat 6 instead of the second one for the phone. At this point I really am not sure why the wiring just stopped. I do know that I have a busted fish tape end, and an attachment with a coax connector lodged in it.

The worst part is I would guess it is just about at the retaining wall. I have racked my brain trying to come up with an idea of getting that out, sort of getting back to square one.

For whatever reason when I built the garage, everything is about 42 inches in the ground, with the NG line for heat.

I have just kind of figured that digging it up is about the only way, unless some one has an idea. I know it does not need to be that deep, and if I am digging, I am not sure whether to dig deep in one place and repair, or put another conduit in that is not so deep. I would have to get under a sidewalk if doing that.

I think I know what the answer will be, but boy if I could some how get that stuck piece out, it would be great.

 

[23ford]

You are exceeding the fill rate for 1/2 inch conduit.....either the 2 C6 or coax or just rerun with 1 inch conduit

 

[Norcal]

While this is a bit late, the OP's situation is a good reason why oversizing a conduit underground is a good idea, I don't like 1/2 underground for that reason. When my shop was built, used 3/4" minimum, even then regretted it on one run, there is about 400' of conduit in that floor.

 

[matt_i]

I've had problems pulling in a belled-end sweep, the next straight piece if not throughly inserted in the bell, can be a flat end to catch stuff. So I started countersinking the ID deeply with a zero flute countersink.

I would pull out the wires you started with and see if the finger trap comes back with it.

Worst case if its still in there and you can get in a new fish tape thru then you might still be able to pull the wire thru, I am not sure if you are using wire lube (?) but its a good idea in any pull if you ask me, even if messy.

Stripping back the wire and twisting the ends thru the fish tape loop, then taping until smooth and lubing is still the most foolproof way to pull, despite the extra work, if something fails nothing is stuck inside the conduit, you pull it all out both ends and try again.

If using the fingertrap I also tape over that, but I have lost one too, in a 2" conduit...when the tape comes back "worn out" wherever the basket wires cross, it seems like its more friction than a "taped twist"

 

[NUTTSGT]

I think I'd be done with that 1/2" and bury a new line, not as deep. The longer you **** around with it, the more time that you could be putting towards a new conduit in 12-18" down.

 

[APEowner]

I'd run new wires and I wouldn't even bother with conduit. I'd just use direct bury. In theory conduit is nice because it makes it easier to change or update the wiring in the future. I'm not sure how often that's actually done and in this case it really didn't work out that well.

 

[CarsonConcepts]

Can you have someone feed the wires in while you pull? Some times it helps to cut down on the friction going into the conduit, and you can also pull back and forth and wiggle a little to help get past snags.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Sounds like you already know digging is in your future. Was it a straight run with 2 90's or were there other restrictions? While the wires may physically fit the apparatus for pulling them might be the issue. Bunched up and taped and sleeved with the wire grip may be too much. Pull in a thin rope. Try to remove wire grip by pulling a small nut like 1/4" back through conduit. If that fails I agree with others and bury a 1" and abandon the 1/2. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Sounds like some thing I would end up with. I would say start digging.

 

[sherlocktk]

You could maybe try one of those 3/8 flexible 50ft plumbing snakes sold at home depot. When I was running some conduit (about 20 ft) for a shed, I put too much glue on it and made it hard to run the wires, used the fish tape to repeatedly go over the area to break down the excess of glue and that let me pull the wires through. As per above, wirelube makes this a much easier process too. I use it for anything more than 2 90's

 

[Git]

If you do get those broken pieces out - I would consider dumping your 'coax' cable and just go with one of the newer services like PlayStation VUE for your TV (you would probably save some money to boot)

You do realize that you don't need two Cat6 runs (although having a backup is always good) and that you can simply run one line and use a 'switch' in your garage to then run multiple connections?

Here is a decent 5 port switch for $15
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000N99BBC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Git]

Here is another thought on your 'TV' situation

go to the Antenna Web page and see if you can get Over The Airt TV channels and what antenna it would take:
https://www.antennaweb.org/

I am amazed at the quality of local digital TV channels I can get with a simple OTA Antena and a simple $100 device that allows you to stream the channels over your local network

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GY0UB54/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The pic is the local news streamed live to my computer with the 'channel bar' active along the right side

 

[manwithtools]

I think I'd be done with that 1/2" and bury a new line, not as deep. The longer you **** around with it, the more time that you could be putting towards a new conduit in 12-18" down.

Yep, times a wastin...... get thee a shovel and go to work. There is no sense in messing with the 1/2" that is now jammed with the pulling device.

 

[cdestuck]

Spend a day and do it right. Dig down 9" or so and bury a 2" pvc line. Heck, when I did my garage I put two of them in. Why? Just st because and plastic is cheap.

 

[Matt The Hammer]

You need a second person pushing. How far is the run?

Run one of the wires first the whole way and see if that makes it. Maybe the single run flushes out something that was in there (mice love conduit).

It's the bends that kill conduit with a lot in them.

 

[manwithtools]

Don't people read the OP's post. The conduit is plugged with the parts of his fish tape and cable he did not get back when he pulled each respective item out of the conduit from opposite ends.

How the hell is he with or without a second person going to push or pull a wire, cable, string, rope, slinky or some other **** through the conduit now?

 

[johnyg]

maybe the retaining wall has settled and messed up your conduit ???? time to get the shovel out.

 

[Plastikosmd]

is dynamite ever the wrong answer?

good luck

 

[DC73]

Try putting the fish tape in again and if it gets stuck, mark it and measure how much fish tape you were able to get into the conduit. Then use that measurement to estimate where to dig. Maybe all you'll have to dig is one hole and then cut and repair the conduit.

DC

 

[jimindm]

I thought for a while before posting about my problem. I think it is really the reason manwithtools said. I am not sure what happens with threads, but many threads seem to derail, in the sense that it does no good for the OP.

I kind of take exception with some saying I did it wrong in the first place. No doubt it would have cost little more to originally install larger conduit, but it really has worked pretty good for 25 years.

I know we are talking about a small price here, but how much can one spend to over build there projects. I can see doing somethings, with expectations of future use, being OK, how will you ever meet those needs on everything. It just does not happen, and many do not want to over spend on things that may or may not ever be used.

I think I have reevaluated my problem. Most of the answers I got I had done prior to posting, and am not sure would work trying it a second or third time. The one post about a drain snake, I most likley will try that. The chinese finger adaptor is stainless steel. If I could get it to sort of wind up in it, that maybe the answer. If it get stuck or does not work I am only out a few bucks, and still have to dig.

In the end If I do end up digging, I will most likely put bigger conduit in, and certainly no where near as deep as this stuff is. Having thought a few days about it, I would probably not even attempt to repair what is there, but just run bigger and not as deep.

In the event the sewer snake works, and gets my pipe open again, I may just put the coax and one cat6 wire through. You read so many threads about wifi reaching an outbuilding, that hardwiring can not be a bad thing.

Considering the phone. It is pretty nice having a go to one on the wall. I can not see myself giving up a land line anytime soon. Having said that cordless phones do not seem to have a problem in shop and work really well. I think if one cat6 will go through, I would rather have internet connectivity over a a hardwired phone line.

Of coarse with land lines the way they are, who knows how long actual phones will be for sale. I suppose you could always have another use such as an intercom or something else.

I guess at this point, I will try the sewer snake and hope for the best. If it works, it saves me a **** load of digging. Hoping that I still could get a cable coax, and one cat6 through. maybe I will be good for another 25 years.

 

[cdestuck]

If you do lear old the old and try to fish it again, besure yo liquid soap it to make it slide easier.

 

[ard]

Couple of thoughts:

Is there an fluid that you could force through the conduit that might loosen the blockage? Water? Solvent? Soap? If you can isolate both ends and temporarily glue fittings, you could set something up to flush. But not sure it will do anything. It must be well jammed. Anything that would soften what got jammed cannot be good for PVC.

On 'shoulda woulda coulda'...

I laid two pieces of 2" conduit from my panel to the crawlspace when I built- 'for future use'

Well the future came. I used one for a 100A service to the barn shop. Another for all exterior lighting, control lines, some added circuits.

So when I added solar, I needed a ANOTHER pipe for the DC conductors.

It's never enough....

 

[DividedAttention]

I'm stuck on a conference call, but if I'm understanding correctly, the basic issue is internet access in your garage and you are trying to re-run some cat6 to get connected again?

Maybe an alternative to pulling wire might be to look into a "Netgear Powerline". I use this to get internet into my polebarn because the house router WiFi signal can't get out of the house and through the metal building skin.
With the Powerline system, there are 2 boxes that communicate to eachother through your existing household AC wiring. I plug one box into an outlet by the main internet suppliers router in the house. Connect an ethernet cable from the main router to the Powerline box. At the other end, the 2nd Powerline box plugs into an outlet in the barn. I have a 2nd router out in the barn, connected from Powerline via ethernet cable that transmits WiFi out there. You can configure your house WiFi and shop WiFi to transmit on different channels to keep the speed up.

 

[rburke65]

That's why, when someone one this forum says...." The book says I can get all this in a 1" conduit....." NO?......spend a dollar and fun a 2" PVC conduit and save yourself a lot of headaches. Plastic is inexpensive. Run an extra conduit....or 2!

 

[engnerdan]

So taking a slightly different approach. You could eliminate the need to run the CAT6 for internet if you pick up two wireless devices that can be used in a bridged configuration. You would mount one on the outside of your house facing the shop and one on the shop facing the one on the house. You then just plug into the cable coming out of the one on the shop with your computer or other internet wired devices. On the house side you just connect it to your router.

I have used these before, and they work well. They do take some technical ability to setup but not all that bad. It looks like they have been replaced by the model further below.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HXT8FFI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

These are the new line, but I don't have first hand experience with this model.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B019M0KK44/?tag=atomicindus08-20


If that does not interest you, going back to pulling wire. Some tips (sorry if these are duplicates)
1. Don't pull a coax with an end on it if you an avoid it
2. Stagger the wires. So start with 12 inches of overlap of your fish tape and coax wire, tape the **** out of the leading end of the coax to streamline it. Then wrap a couple spots over that 12 inch overlap. Then attach your first CAT6 18 inches back from the front of the coax, then the second CAT6 24 inches back. Tape these good and tight.
3. Get some pulling lube
4. Ditch your chinese finger trap, it is just adding diameter to the mix. I am sure they work, I have never used one or needed one.
5. You can strip the outer jacket off about 6" of the first piece of CAT6 and loop it through the loop on the end of the fish tape and then tape it back to add security to hold the fish tape to the bundle. If you do this, take the snot out of the area (end of fish tape and the CAT6 conductors that are folded back).

Good luck,
-Dan

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Blow or vacuum some air through the conduit. If you don't get any air flow, you have a collapsed or unjointed conduit. Then get out the he shovel and use some direct burial cabling.
If in the end you can use the 1/2" conduit. Use direct burial cable the second time. If you really need the coax leave the ends off for the pull. For the Cat 6 you could get by with one and make two out of it. The white orange and white green are the important connection wires. To cheat for the second Cat 6 cable substitute the white blue and white brown for the w/b and w/g. Just make sure your substitution are the same at both ends. While it will never pass any test other than a mapping test it will likely do what you want.
If the second Cat 6 is simply for another device. Buy a switch for the single Cat 6 and run additional devices out of the switch.

 

[SteveCh]

Don't people read the OP's post.

Nope.

 

[Git]

Considering the phone. It is pretty nice having a go to one on the wall. I can not see myself giving up a land line anytime soon. Having said that cordless phones do not seem to have a problem in shop and work really well. I think if one cat6 will go through, I would rather have internet connectivity over a a hardwired phone line.

Of coarse with land lines the way they are, who knows how long actual phones will be for sale. I suppose you could always have another use such as an intercom or something else.

Regarding your phone - if you can get one CAT6 line out there you should look into getting a Google Voice phone number - it's free and then spend $50 on an OBI 200 voice adapter and you will have a phone:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BUV7C9A/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I have been using one for years

 

[Cgantner5150]

If I read the OP correctly - he used masons twine for the pull line. This will cut a groove in the inside of every corner of the plastic pipe. It pinched the wiring in one of the grooves and there is no getting it out besides digging it up. It probably pinched after the wire basket and has now broken the pull line before the basket and the wiring arter the pinch.

You should have used the old coax as the pull line. No ends on the new wiring and taper and tape. Use lube - it's messy but works.

I learned this lesson pulling 24 - 10/4 speaker wires, 4 Cat6's, and 2 RG6's about 350' around a customer's pool from the middle of the main house first floor equipment room to the center of the pool pump house inside 4" grey PVC. Thankfully it was jammed in the last sweep 90. Only had to bust up a 3x3' section of the slab of the pool house. Lesson learned the hard ($) way.

 

[bjcouche]

OK, Here's what I would do. I'm guessing where you went wrong is by using the masons string and then pulling too hard on it. When pulling masons string through a PVC 90, the string cuts the inside of the 90 like a chainsaw cuts a tree. I'm assuming your conduit was originally not blocked because you were able to push a fish tape through it and get your wires partway pulled through before you got your chinese fingers stuck in the conduit. I would try the plumbers snake from either end to see if that will catch it and get it out. Once you have the parts out of the conduit, use a larger string to pull your new wires in with. Use the largest rope that you can reasonable use and still get the wires connected to the rope and still get it into the conduit easily. The larger rope is because your inside corners of your conduit already have deep sharp grooves cut by the masons string and you want to be sure the rope can't get caught in that groove. When pulling, use lube and have a buddy do the pushing. A small amount of pushing makes a huge difference on the required pulling force.
Brian

 

[pentavolvo]

FYI if you only get one cat5 in you can split it between phone and internet but it will limit your Ethernet link to 10meg instead of 100

 

[bjcouche]

Pentavolvo has a good idea, but he has the numbers wrong. CAT6 has 4 pairs of wires in the cable. 10 and 100 megabit use only 2 pairs, leaving the other two unused. 1,000 migabit, gigabit uses all 4 pairs. A single phone line uses only 1 pair.
Brian

 

[ripperd]

Pentavolvo has a good idea, but he has the numbers wrong. CAT6 has 4 pairs of wires in the cable. 10 and 100 megabit use only 2 pairs, leaving the other two unused. 1,000 migabit, gigabit uses all 4 pairs. A single phone line uses only 1 pair.
Brian

This.

I cheat for my multifunction at home this way - 1 cat5e run gets broken at each end into a rj45 and an rj11. One for network, one for fax. Works great. The multifunction only supports 10/100 anyway.

 

[Redbandit98]

Just to try, bend a small hook on the fish tape and run it in to where it stops. Take the whole fish tape and just turn it over and over twisting the "tape". You can sometimes hook wore that's broke like that as it will wrap around the tape. Try it from both ends several times. With 1/2" conduit, there may not be enough room for the hook to "twist around" enough to catch the wires.

 

[MikeF2316]

Don't people read the OP's post.
...

Not just this thread.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6652574#post6652574

 

[LXCam]

Just to try, bend a small hook on the fish tape and run it in to where it stops. Take the whole fish tape and just turn it over and over twisting the "tape". You can sometimes hook wore that's broke like that as it will wrap around the tape. Try it from both ends several times. With 1/2" conduit, there may not be enough room for the hook to "twist around" enough to catch the wires.

Finally someone with the right idea of how to grab and remove the mess first. To add to his suggestion cut off a piece of the fish tape about a foot longer then where it hits the blockage. Bend the leading edge over 180 but also just a little bit off to the side. Push it back in and when it stops against the blockage hook a drill up to it and spin the tape if the direction you bent the tip in, like a drill but. You'll know when it's grabbed the old sock. Also don't go nuts with spinning this up as that can really make it worse.

Now for pulling it out here's the downside. That stupid *** offset will grab every hard edge that might exist when pulling it back out. You can use linemans pliers to yank with or vise grips but my point being be prepared to have a little tug of war with it. As long as you don't make that bent portion too long and if it gets stuck you can normally pull hard enough to straighten it out if it does get jammed.

Hopefully this makes sense, one fingered typing has its limitation for me. If it doesn't then say so and I'll post a picture of what I mean

Good luck.