Wired 2nd router for Shop

[matt_i]

Just thought I'd post about some success I had today with putting wifi into the new shop. I know ******** network guys will laugh a little but this is pretty far out of my comfort zone.

I have a Netgear N750 router working in the house and had an old Netgear N150 router that was the main house version for several years until it became unstable under multiple devices after the kids got more things to connect to it, and I had to upgrade and the -150 was abandoned.

I had read about configuring a 2nd router to be hardwired thru Cat5/6 (I have old school Cat5) to use the 2nd wifi router as a "slave" device or more of an antenna.

Cat 5 was pulled and terminated, my run was thru the combination of buildings connecting house and shop, but could be easily placed in conduit. I tested it out and proved the cable good to support a hardwired internet connection to a PC.

The post is to simplify a lot of hacking around, its actually pretty simple in the end.

Next, I learned I had to tap into the main router settings using http://192.168.1.1 and alter the range of IPs that it assigns to the various devices as they connect. I allowed it to connect from 192.168.1.3 to 192.168.1.255, reserving the .2 address to be affixed to the 2nd router.

Plugging the 2nd router (the N150) hard-cable directly to my PC I also accessed it with 192.168.1.1 but then I forced the IP to be static at 192.168.1.2 which is the "open" IP address where the main router cannot assign. I disabled the DHCP and made the SSID (network name) the same as the main/primary but with a "-2" suffix. The type of security...WPA2-PSK was set equivalent to main, and also the passphrase to access the network was made equivalent to the main/primary router. Then saved these settings. The router firmware especially on the older one is very very slow to update...like a dialup modem

I confirmed that the new/forced IP "stuck" after the save by trying to access 192.168.1.1 while still hardwired....nothing found. So then I tried to access 192.168.1.2 and success.

Last step was to move the 2nd router out to the shop and plug it into the long connecting Cat 5, which goes into one of the 1-4 "output" ports and not the input port as you'd be inclined to think.

And magically I had wifi, good enough to support video chatting. Hopefully this can help someone else out, it was zero cost since I already had the old/abandoned N150 router and a spool of Cat5 from long ago. The Cat5 could easily go thru a low voltage conduit if the shop was detached, although I am not sure my cable jacket is rated for wet locations. If you were looking to upgrade your main router, don't pitch the old one! It could come in quite handy.

 

[AntonLargiader]

That is usually 192.168...

Good post, thanks.

BTW, if they are not within WiFi range of each other you can use the same name for both. My in-laws use the same name and passkey for several houses and one login works everywhere.

 

[Falcon67]

That is usually 192.168...

Good post, thanks.

BTW, if they are not within WiFi range of each other you can use the same name for both. My in-laws use the same name and passkey for several houses and one login works everywhere.

Same here, just make sure the DHCP scopes don't overlap. There should be no problem with using the same SSID on both even if they can see each other - the "conflict", if any, will be on 2.4gHz and one router will just switch to another channel. Same on 5 gHz but there are a lot more channels so it's even less of a problem. If having the same SSID close by was an issue I could not put 34 access points using the same SSIDs in a building. I manage 212 APs throwing the same SSIDs all over campus.

The 2nd router is just another device in the first router's IP address space.

 

[ddurrett896]

I know ******** network guys will laugh a little but this is pretty far out of my comfort zone.

You're better than me. I gave up and bought Google WIFI!

 

[matt_i]

That is usually 192.168...

Thank you! Correction made

 

[AntonLargiader]

So what does it take to be able to seamlessly roam from one hotspot to another? Or is there no such thing?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just thought I'd post about some success I had today with putting wifi into the new shop. I know ******** network guys will laugh a little but this is pretty far out of my comfort zone.

I have a Netgear N750 router working in the house and had an old Netgear N150 router that was the main house version for several years until it became unstable under multiple devices after the kids got more things to connect to it, and I had to upgrade and the -150 was abandoned.

I had read about configuring a 2nd router to be hardwired thru Cat5/6 (I have old school Cat5) to use the 2nd wifi router as a "slave" device or more of an antenna.

Cat 5 was pulled and terminated, my run was thru the combination of buildings connecting house and shop, but could be easily placed in conduit. I tested it out and proved the cable good to support a hardwired internet connection to a PC.

The post is to simplify a lot of hacking around, its actually pretty simple in the end.

Next, I learned I had to tap into the main router settings using http://192.168.1.1 and alter the range of IPs that it assigns to the various devices as they connect. I allowed it to connect from 192.168.1.3 to 192.168.1.255, reserving the .2 address to be affixed to the 2nd router.

Plugging the 2nd router (the N150) hard-cable directly to my PC I also accessed it with 192.168.1.1 but then I forced the IP to be static at 192.168.1.2 which is the "open" IP address where the main router cannot assign. I disabled the DHCP and made the SSID (network name) the same as the main/primary but with a "-2" suffix. The passphrase to access the network was made equivalent to the main/primary router. Then saved these settings. The router firmware especially on the older one is very very slow to update...like a dialup modem

I confirmed that the new/forced IP "stuck" after the save by trying to access 192.168.1.1 while still hardwired....nothing found. So then I tried to access 192.168.1.2 and success.

Last step was to move the 2nd router out to the shop and plug it into the long connecting Cat 5, which goes into one of the 1-4 "output" ports and not the input port as you'd be inclined to think.

And magically I had wifi, good enough to support video chatting. Hopefully this can help someone else out, it was zero cost since I already had the old/abandoned N150 router and a spool of Cat5 from long ago. The Cat5 could easily go thru a low voltage conduit if the shop was detached, although I am not sure my cable jacket is rated for wet locations. If you were looking to upgrade your main router, don't pitch the old one! It could come in quite handy.

Theres another way to do this.

You couldve changed the second router to auto DHCP for its own IP address and it would grab an IP address from the first router.

But if you wanted it to be .2 then the process you did obviously worked.

That is usually 192.168...

Good post, thanks.

BTW, if they are not within WiFi range of each other you can use the same name for both. My in-laws use the same name and passkey for several houses and one login works everywhere.

Actually, even if multiple APs have the same SSID and they are in range of each other, its not an issue since APs have whats called a BSSID which is the mac address of the radio.

The main issue, that needs to be watched, with having APs in range of each other is the channel they are on as Falcon said above.

Now both 2.4ghz and 5ghz APs can have channel interference issues.

2.4ghz is especially prone to this since there is only 11 channels available in the US on the 20Mhz channel width and out of those, only 3 are non-overlapping.

Yes while channel interference and collision is less likely on 5Ghz because there is a lot more spectrum available and more available channel width(10, 20, 40, and 80mhz), it is still possible especially with some hosts and APs that cannot use all channel widths and channels available. This is especially prevalent on lower end consumer devices.

Same here, just make sure the DHCP scopes don't overlap. There should be no problem with using the same SSID on both even if they can see each other - the "conflict", if any, will be on 2.4gHz and one router will just switch to another channel. Same on 5 gHz but there are a lot more channels so it's even less of a problem. If having the same SSID close by was an issue I could not put 34 access points using the same SSIDs in a building. I manage 212 APs throwing the same SSIDs all over campus.

The 2nd router is just another device in the first router's IP address space.

For small home and office environments, its best to have only one DHCP server like the OP did. Otherwise, things can get confusing.

So what does it take to be able to seamlessly roam from one hotspot to another? Or is there no such thing?

That is mainly dependent on the host. Depending on the host, if the signal gets too low it will 'ROAM' to the next AP with the same or different SSID as long as it has authority(password) to do so.

However, newer Emterprise class APs and their management systems such as UBNT Unifi (which is what I install support and maintain for a number of my clients), has features that can force hosts to roam from one AP to another depending on such things as RSSI signal level, bandwidth useage, host capability, etc.

 

[bowhuntr311]

So what does it take to be able to seamlessly roam from one hotspot to another? Or is there no such thing?

What your looking for is a "mesh network" there is such a thing but usually only used in very high-end commercial setups. I have yet to find a residential product with seamless handoff between APs.

 

[rlitman]

That is usually 192.168...

Good post, thanks.

BTW, if they are not within WiFi range of each other you can use the same name for both. My in-laws use the same name and passkey for several houses and one login works everywhere.

Even if they are within range. I have three access-points on my property. One in the basement, one upstairs, and one in the detached garage. All wired to the router in the basement.

Same here, just make sure the DHCP scopes don't overlap...

NOOOOOOO! The router is the device wired with both a WAN (internet) and LAN (local network) port. That device is your egress point to the internet, and that device must be the one serving DHCP.

The access point(s) only have a wire on the LAN side. These have no connection on the WAN port, so they have no route out to the internet, except through the LAN. It is critical that DHCP is disabled on these devices. Otherwise, any client that receives a DHCP address from them, will be told that this device is their gateway, and that will leave them unable to connect to the internet.

So what does it take to be able to seamlessly roam from one hotspot to another? Or is there no such thing?

On an ad-hoc network, when a device comes online searching for an AP, it will pick the one that has the strongest signal, and stick with it. As you roam from one hotspot to another, it will stick with the one it first connected to, until it loses that connection. Only after that point will it grab the now best signal. This scheme usually works well enough, though it is less than ideal.

...
Actually, even if multiple APs have the same SSID and they are in range of each other, its not an issue since APs have whats called a BSSID which is the mac address of the radio.

The main issue, that needs to be watched, with having APs in range of each other is the channel they are on as Falcon said above.

Now both 2.4ghz and 5ghz APs can have channel interference issues.

2.4ghz is especially prone to this since there is only 11 channels available in the US on the 20Mhz channel width and out of those, only 3 are non-overlapping.

Yes while channel interference and collision is less likely on 5Ghz because there is a lot more spectrum available and more available channel width(10, 20, 40, and 80mhz), it is still possible especially with some hosts and APs that cannot use all channel widths and channels available. This is especially prevalent on lower end consumer devices.

For small home and office environments, its best to have only one DHCP server like the OP did. Otherwise, things can get confusing.

That is mainly dependent on the host. Depending on the host, if the signal gets too low it will 'ROAM' to the next AP with the same or different SSID as long as it has authority(password) to do so.

However, newer Emterprise class APs and their management systems such as UBNT Unifi (which is what I install support and maintain for a number of my clients), has features that can force hosts to roam from one AP to another depending on such things as RSSI signal level, bandwidth useage, host capability, etc.

EXACTLY! Yes, Enterprise WiFi networks have much better roaming capabilities (my company installs these, though I don't deal much with that end of the business). But you pay for that. I don't need that sort of control at home.

 

[Falcon67]

NOOOOOOO! The router is the device wired with both a WAN (internet) and LAN (local network) port. That device is your egress point to the internet, and that device must be the one serving DHCP.

The access point(s) only have a wire on the LAN side. These have no connection on the WAN port, so they have no route out to the internet, except through the LAN. It is critical that DHCP is disabled on these devices. Otherwise, any client that receives a DHCP address from them, will be told that this device is their gateway, and that will leave them unable to connect to the internet.

If the router has it's WAN side set to a fixed IP like 192.168.1.2, then the LAN side is the gateway for any attached device. The closest DHCP provider answers the request.

The OP used the WAN connection to talk back to the first router with real WAN connection.

I have three routers and two Ubiquity nodes that span a 192.168 network across a neighborhood. The only different address space is on the far end, to make sure they are on a separate network that I can regulate. Until that part of the family goes and get's their own DSL line, that is.

You can find home type routers that support "bridge mode", which is what we do around here for places that don't rate a $600 access point. The setup is about the same with a PSK and fixed IP on the "WAN" side but the router just passes traffic through to the regular DHCP server on the network. The client gets an IP same as if they had plugged a cable into a jack in the same building.

I would say that Bridge Mode is "easier" - but having used that with Linksys N750s it's not because of the way Linksys wrote the firmware. It's a bit of a PITA to set them up. Basically you have to do your full config manually, then switch to Bridge Mode - at which time you lose access to all those configured settings. Mess it up and the best way back is to reset to factory defaults and start over.

 

[klassenl]

I just uplink/downlink from one of the ports off of my isp's router/modem/gateway to the shop and have a $25 WiFi router there. No changing of settings or ip a dresses. It just works. I have 2 WiFi networks without the seamless transition but I'm OK with that.

 

[Marctrees]

What ??

Huh ? ? ?



I thought I was doing great............ may be missing out.

Does this have something to do with getting the latest scoop on the Kardashians or Chrisleys??

I don't have this.


Marc

















Marc

 

[dneiding]

What your looking for is a "mesh network" there is such a thing but usually only used in very high-end commercial setups. I have yet to find a residential product with seamless handoff between APs.

Really??? I have a combination of Netgear, Cisco and Buffalo routers all with the same SSID and wireless security more and passphrase and we roam from AP to AP all day long with no problem. I have a my main wireless Buffalo router in the kitchen (far south side of my ranch house) a wireless Cisco router in my office (about the middle, basement) a wireless Netgear router in the family room (far north side, basement) and finally a Netgear outside in the pool house next to the swimming pool. We roam from inside to outside, from one side of the house to another and the wireless hands-off seamlessly to one another - all with consumer-grade < $100 each equipment.

 

[jomobco]

Really??? I have a combination of Netgear, Cisco and Buffalo routers all with the same SSID and wireless security more and passphrase and we roam from AP to AP all day long with no problem. I have a my main wireless Buffalo router in the kitchen (far south side of my ranch house) a wireless Cisco router in my office (about the middle, basement) a wireless Netgear router in the family room (far north side, basement) and finally a Netgear outside in the pool house next to the swimming pool. We roam from inside to outside, from one side of the house to another and the wireless hands-off seamlessly to one another - all with consumer-grade < $100 each equipment.

I've been told the handoff doesn't happen as easily without a mesh network. It will hang on to one access point when another is available that is much stronger. Mesh will hand off much better between leafs.

On that note there are quite a few residential mesh networks hitting the US lately. I'm running 8 eero units on my property. I'm pretty happy with the set-up. As mentioned there is Google Wifi, Orbi, Plume and a few others.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What your looking for is a "mesh network" there is such a thing but usually only used in very high-end commercial setups. I have yet to find a residential product with seamless handoff between APs.

not true.

Roaming can be done with just about any combination of APs

Now it may not be seamless and thats usually due to the host.

NOOOOOOO! The router is the device wired with both a WAN (internet) and LAN (local network) port. That device is your egress point to the internet, and that device must be the one serving DHCP.

Not true. You could setup a router connected to the internet modem to be just the firewall and use a separate device such as a windows 10 machine, for DHCP server.

I have several clients that have Fireboxes with a separate domain controller that hands out DHCP requested addresses to hosts on the network.

The access point(s) only have a wire on the LAN side. These have no connection on the WAN port, so they have no route out to the internet, except through the LAN. It is critical that DHCP is disabled on these devices. Otherwise, any client that receives a DHCP address from them, will be told that this device is their gateway, and that will leave them unable to connect to the internet.

Not true again.

You could setup 2 wireless routers(eg. A and B) with A connected to the internet via its WAN port and B connected to A via the WAN port on B.

What this does is make it so any hosts on As side of the WAN port of B cannot see or talk to hosts on Bs LAN side due to the firewall and NAT.

If you leave NAT and DHCP turned on on B, then all hosts plugged into B will get their addresses from B. B will then forward requests for the internet or routes outside of its subnet to A via its route tables that it calculates once plugged in.

B's WAN port would get an IP address from A as long as B is setup for DHCP on its WAN port.

I just uplink/downlink from one of the ports off of my isp's router/modem/gateway to the shop and have a $25 WiFi router there. No changing of settings or ip a dresses. It just works. I have 2 WiFi networks without the seamless transition but I'm OK with that.

Thats because your ISPs gateway handed your router an IP address via DHCP protocol.

And thats one thing i suggested earlier....

 

[matt_i]

So, just a quick update on an old thread.

My main router died and I replaced it with a new-er one of same model.

It has a new network name and a new user password (to connect to it).

No wiring changes were needed, everything stayed plugged in just as before.

I went to 192.168.1.1, in Advanced, and adjusted the DHCP settings to reserve 192.168.1.2 for the remote router. And allowed the DHCP to use the range of 192.168.1.3 to 192.168.1.255 for users.

Then I went to 192.168.1.2 and updated its Name to be the same as the other, except with the -2 suffix. I also updated the Password to be equivalent to the new main.

All is working just as before other than connecting the devices again. Both routers are discoverable and both have internet access.

I'd have a beer to celebrate but its Sunday and work looms tomorrow

 

[wyliesdiesels]

wow... 2 plus years later... thanks for the update

 

[b-boy]

I've been told the handoff doesn't happen as easily without a mesh network. It will hang on to one access point when another is available that is much stronger. Mesh will hand off much better between leafs.

On that note there are quite a few residential mesh networks hitting the US lately. I'm running 8 eero units on my property. I'm pretty happy with the set-up. As mentioned there is Google Wifi, Orbi, Plume and a few others.

For what it's worth, some of the mesh networks don't a very good job either. I hated mine. It was constantly jumping between nodes.