Wiring a TIG welder - question

[cederholm]

Happy holidays all!

I want to run a dedicated 240v circuit for my new TIG.

Based on the specs below, what size breaker and wire should I use??

Thanks, excited to learn to TIG

~ Carl

Power Input 120 VAC / 60 Hz 240 VAC / 60 Hz
Current Input at Output 20.6 A at 125 A 15.6 A at 175 A
Welding Current Range 10 A –125 A 10 A –175 A
Rated Duty Cycles 40% @ 125 A
100% @ 90 A
30% @ 175 A
100% @ 105 A
Maximum OCV 78VDC

 

[sberry]

This sounds like a new 200 Synchrowave. It depends on method but if using cable use a 12 wire or better and 30 breaker. If its single circuit in pipe can be 12 wire or better, 10 cable and up to 50 breaker. I just wired one, 12/30 AC cable @ 50 ft. Its legal minimum is 14/30 single circuit in pipe at 48 ft. While that is legal no one thinks it's all that great and will have a pinch of performance loss which goes away with 12. If this isnt clear ask again. I garble it up with lotso stuff.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Most welders have a 6-50 plug on them, so the easy answer is a 50A breaker with #6 wire. then it doesn't have to be a special "welder" circuit setup.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A make and model would be helpful here.

Does the welder power cord come with an attchment plug?

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

I agree with the make it a real welder plug, full 50 amp and never have to think about it again. 14 wire running a welder? Might be legal but is it smart? Do it the right way.

 

[sberry]

A make and model would be helpful here.

Does the welder power cord come with an attchment plug?

From the specs bet it does. I dont think any up to 50a dont now. Some of the early multi voltage/multi phase ones didnt but the new ones have dvi input adapters. I am pretty sure the one in this thread is dvi and has a 14 cord on it. I dont wire them 14 either, for one thing a 6-50 isnt listed for 14 wire. Also there is a fair amount of v drop especially at max distance.
I have actually tested some machines with different wires. Especially wide open you got to change the settings a fuzz. Once a wire is one size up you cant tell.

 

[Matt Matt]

When I was running a Lincoln 225 arc it came with the good old welding plug. I ran a 40 amp circuit prior to it with #8 wire. I kind of upgraded to a ESAB DTA 200. At full tilt TIG the metre reader reads 40 A on the line. I have yet to trip the breaker but I’m sure one day I will. I wish I just went to the 50 A from the start.

Edit; some of your numbers are not jiving.

You say it is a 120/240 input 20/15A
My guess is this is a pretty small machine.
Sooo, my new thought is you could easily run this on a 30 amp 240v circuit. But if you’re running the circuit and you ever think you might want to upgrade, do it right the first time.

A make & model would be helpful.

 

[sberry]

I agree with the make it a real welder plug, full 50 amp and never have to think about it again. 14 wire running a welder? Might be legal but is it smart? Do it the right way.

Its safe. It's been code a long time and the mfg lists it. One of the reasons for buying a modern welder is they dont require heavy circuits. They can use long light cords.

I just wired a garage and the guy doesn't know it yet but it got 2 outlets instead of one and it will mean less cord. Big incentive when wire is 50 cents a foot vs over 2$ or more.
He can add another one easy in this scheme should it ever become an issue but I kind of doubt it due to the fact he bpught 175 feeder and 200 inverter tig, feeding the garage from 100A house setvice anyway.

 

[sberry]

When I was running a Lincoln 225 arc it came with the good old welding plug. I ran a 40 amp circuit prior to it with #8 wire. I kind of upgraded to a ESAB DTA 200. At full tilt TIG the metre reader reads 40 A on the line. I have yet to trip the breaker but I’m sure one day I will. I wish I just went to the 50 A from the start.

You did . 8 cable can run 60A tig, 8 single circuit in pipe can run some 100a input machines.

 

[sberry]

A 225 buzzer comes 12 cord and can use 12 in pipe 80 ft on a 50 breaker. 10 cable is legal and adequate, 8 is a size bigger than it needs.

 

[Matt Matt]

You did . 8 cable can run 60A tig, 8 single circuit in pipe can run some 100a input machines.

I was just telling ya what I tested on my amperage side. It is a little Close for my comfort. Here is a picture of my electrical requirements in the manual. I hope you can make sense of it.

The fact still doesn’t change, that my test metre is saying it’s pulling 40A.

This was my old buzzer that you are referring to. Take a look at the pictures.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

When I was running a Lincoln 225 arc it came with the good old welding plug. I ran a 40 amp circuit prior to it with #8 wire. I kind of upgraded to a ESAB DTA 200. At full tilt TIG the metre reader reads 40 A on the line. I have yet to trip the breaker but I’m sure one day I will. I wish I just went to the 50 A from the start.

Edit; some of your numbers are not jiving.

You say it is a 120/240 input 20/15A
My guess is this is a pretty small machine.
Sooo, my new thought is you could easily run this on a 30 amp 240v circuit. But if you’re running the circuit and you ever think you might want to upgrade, do it right the first time.

A make & model would be helpful.

If this is #8 THWN then you can change breaker to 50a.

 

[Bert_]

I was just telling ya what I tested on my amperage side. It is a little Close for my comfort. Here is a picture of my electrical requirements in the manual. I hope you can make sense of it.

The fact still doesn’t change, that my test metre is saying it’s pulling 40A.

This was my old buzzer that you are referring to. Take a look at the pictures.

It's all about duty cycle. For example, the welder might pull more than 40A at full output but if it only has a 35% duty cycle then the wire is fine. The wire doesn't overheat because the welder can only pull that much current for 3.5 minutes and then must cool for the remaining 6.5 minutes. The wire has time to cool off also.

 

[Engineer61]

Electrical requirements I think says that if you have it on a 220v source it will pull 35 Amps; 380v source it will pull 20 amps and 500v source it will pull 16 Amps. Looks to be European specs with those voltages.
If it really is pulling 35 Amps with 220v input you probably should go with the 6-50R, a 50 amp breaker and 6 gauge wire.
That's what I just installed in my garage for a 250 amp output TIG welder that is supposed to pull 33 amps at 240v

 

[Matt Matt]

If this is #8 THWN then you can change breaker to 50a.

True, but this is not a totally dedicated welding circuit. I use a 5hp RPC that is stepped up through a six kVA transformer to 240/600 V three phase to power other equipment. This is a one source dedicated plug, it also has a motor rating of 3 hp. But it’s not used as a means of surge disconnect.

A plug outlet is a plug outlet in my opinion. The feed line should be rated to the the breaker feed. I personally like to keep things kosher with a circuits maximum.

I also have a 60 amp sub panel. But that’s another story... feeding a seccond 20 hp RPC.

I personally like to keep my outlets motor rated.

I’ve tried to ask this here before.... if a motor rating exceeds the plug outlet rating but there is proper disconnect with overload protection mounted to the machine, is the plug rating disregarded under the nec with a special purpose applications? If so, what states is it applicable in?

Oh by the way merry Christmas everyone!

 

[nadogail]

Don't cheap out, even if it meets the minimum specs.

 

[sberry]

If its running something other than welders then its a different matter. But the breaker can be changed to 50 even if its not thhn. It can be 50 on a 10 cable for a buzzer which has 48a in at rated output. 35 on your meter is not close,,, it may be only 1/2 loaded depending on the duty cycle. Older ****** 200 synchro allowed 100a on 8 thhn.

 

[sberry]

Its not applicable in any "state" to disregard the motor rating of the outlet.
The reason I pick on this that a simple answer to every question of using 6 for every circuit doesnt lead to much learnin which is obvious here. It doesn't mean you cant or shouldnt wire it better but the mfg and the code people obviously went to great length to write it the way they did.
We can simplify it with a little generalization for understanding purposes. They do this on occasion in womens magazines.
Basically,,, ( since its rare that crowd is piping wire) an extension cord, and this applys to cable too should be a size larger than the one that comes on the machine. Thats kind of basic but is a fundamental of a lot of circuit design. Smaller cord wint overload a bigger one.

 

[cederholm]

Whoa, thanks for all the responses everyone!

The welder is a Vulcan 220. It's a multi-welder and can do Stick, MIG and TIG in both 110 and 220v. I'm just a hobbiest and I've been impressed with the welder 110 MIG but I'd like to wire it for 220 and try my hand at TIG.

Here is the 220 cord that came with it.

Thanks again,
Carl

 

[sberry]

It can go on circuits to 50A, it requires 30 service with a number 14 wire if in pipe, use a 12 or better and a 30 breaker .

 

[cederholm]

Hi Sberry,

Sorry for being dense but I want to make sure I understand you. I should use a 30amp breaker with 12AWG. ...correct?

Thanks!

It can go on circuits to 50A, it requires 30 service with a number 14 wire if in pipe, use a 12 or better and a 30 breaker .

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Your pic didnt load.

 

[cederholm]

Really? Let me investigate.

Your pic didnt load.

 

[sberry]

Yes, 12/30. I just wired a garage for one similar.

 

[cederholm]

Thanks Sberry!

Let's try this pic thing again!.

 

[sberry]

There is a minimum. It is 14/30. The instructions are written for those familar with code. Many (including myself) dont think the minimum is a great idea and,,,, it is only for single circuit in pjpe. There are a couple other issues with it too. But,,, when this is used its max breaker MUST be 30'
. ,,,,, However, it comes with 50 end and a cord that allows it to be connected to common 50 welder circuits provided the wire size is sufficient for short circuit interuption at 50A. This is different than thermal overload which is determined by the applied load and further thermal within the machine,,, in a sense the machine will quit before it overloads the incoming wire. It wont trip a 30 so the only point of a larger breaker is for a larger machine.
To avoid a couple issues simply use a wire larger than the minimum.

 

[cederholm]

To avoid a couple issues simply use a wire larger than the minimum.

...Which would be the 12 that you recommended, right?

I certainly don't want the minimum, but I also don't want to go to extreme either.

 

[matt_i]

Why not just run #8 awg in conduit to the 6-50 plug?

Someday you want a watercooled Tig the circuit is already ready to go. Someday you want a heat treat oven the circuit is already ready to go. (etc etc etc).

If you don't care about that then why not just go absolute minimum and save money......

 

[The Maxx]

Is there a breaker size specified by the manufacture?

Mine also had a 6-50 plug, but Miller said the machine required a 40amp breaker for it's protection.

I went big with the wire because I wanted it to be a 50 amp circuit when I get a bigger machine. Just upgrade the breaker.

 

[cederholm]

I'm not finding anything from the manufacture, I'll look again.

Is there a breaker size specified by the manufacture?

Mine also had a 6-50 plug, but Miller said the machine required a 40amp breaker for it's protection.

I went big with the wire because I wanted it to be a 50 amp circuit when I get a bigger machine. Just upgrade the breaker.

 

[sberry]

This must still not be clear, the minimum is 14, a 12 is a size up. The reason not to use the minimum,,, it is only allowed if it is single circuit in pipe, connections on the recept call for a size larger wire,, I only mention the minimum for comparative purpose and to explain the breaker sizing in the manual.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Is there a breaker size specified by the manufacture?

Mine also had a 6-50 plug, but Miller said the machine required a 40amp breaker for it's protection.

I went big with the wire because I wanted it to be a 50 amp circuit when I get a bigger machine. Just upgrade the breaker.

what if you take the welder elsewhere to use it?
My opinion is if you want your device that's corded with X but protected at X-Y, then you as the manufacturer of the device should provide that on-board the device.

just my $0.02.

 

[sberry]

As for the Miller, same game but if it comes with a 50 plug its allowed on a 50 circuit. When there is a recommended breaker smaller than the plug its when the minimum wire is used.

 

[sberry]

Miller got some new guys for the new wave of inverters. I dont know all the details but quiz 1or 2 along the way and not every electrical engineer is familiar with the code book. They are smart and genius but you can get thru the school without cracking that book.
That is NOT implying I am smart etc before we go there but came up a couple times on new machines. The guy who designed it may not be the one who wrote the instructions etc, may even been some kind of attempt at a lay reccomendation, not exactly sure.
When those forums were really active some proposed more clear or further explanations for the manuals but it didnt go too far and I see a couple even more confusing than ever.

Most of the real tech shate is wayyyy over my head anyway.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks Sberry!

Let's try this pic thing again!.

Thats a NEMA 6-50p.

 

[bczygan]

Whoa, thanks for all the responses everyone!

The welder is a Vulcan 220. It's a multi-welder and can do Stick, MIG and TIG in both 110 and 220v. I'm just a hobbiest and I've been impressed with the welder 110 MIG but I'd like to wire it for 220 and try my hand at TIG.

Here is the 220 cord that came with it.

Thanks again,
Carl

Your manual says to plug it into a 20A circuit for 120V.

"Plug the Power Cord into a properly grounded, GFCI protected
120 VAC (20 amp rated) or 240 VAC receptacle that
matches the plug and turn the Power Switch ON.
The circuit must be equipped with delayed
action-type circuit breaker or fuses."

Manual:
https://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/63000-63999/63621.pdf

And based on the 240V max. input amperage, it looks like a 30A circuit would be appropriate. Correction...It has a 50A plug.

Bill

 

[sberry]

The plug is 50. This machine doesnt require that much current but it is designed to be allowed to be plugged in to 50a circuits.