Wiring a welder outlet

[MrMark]

A 4 wire fed dryer has insulated neutral. Old 3 wires were bonded, N to the frame to allow for short circuit protection, usually a strap or jumper wire which must be removed for 4 wire. They still allow for 3 wire if it is existing, once its moved or new construction the wire must be changed to 4. Ranges the same way. I believe this was in 96 code???

Thank you. I see what you are talking about now. The old wiring in the receptical had no ground wire just two hots and a neutral as these dryers are dual voltage devices (I am assuming having never seen one). So . . . to get some semblance of a chassis ground, the neutral was jumpered at the dryer from the wiring terminal over to the chassis because there was no ground available. A poor man's fault clearing system. Problem with this is no fault clearing if the neutral is open.

 

[MrMark]

Table 210.21(B)(3) is your friend.

You must be an electrical engineer. You are good.

 

[sberry]

Also may apply current to frame? A 4th wire keeps the potential the same as the rest of the place or anything else grounded.

 

[JBurgess]

You must be an electrical engineer. You are good.

Not an engineer.

Actually that table is for 2 or more plugs on a circuit. My bad.

I would use a NEMA 6-50R.

 

[MrMark]

Also may apply current to frame? A 4th wire keeps the potential the same as the rest of the place or anything else grounded.

Yeah, it would, wouldn't it. Open neutral and you complete the circuit by touching the dryer.

 

[sberry]

FWIW, I am not an electrician, I only play one on the internet. But I am super sensitive to what I didn't know and what other guys are missing on these forums. I really look to see if they have a grasp on short circuit protection and alternate pathways, etc.

 

[MrMark]

FWIW, I am not an electrician, I only play one on the internet. But I am super sensitive to what I didn't know and what other guys are missing on these forums. I really look to see if they have a grasp on short circuit protection and alternate pathways, etc.

I have learned a lot from reading your posts. Thanks.

 

[OccupantRJ]

After reading all these posts, I decided to see if I could find where the 2008 NEC can be read online, and found this. Enjoy.

RJ

http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7008SB

 

[mikeyr]

This thread just won't quit... I wired my welder with 6-2 romex, not cheap as I put in 3 plugs in the garage each with a run back to the panel because I did not want to splice that thick wire. Now I don't worry if I have the right size wire or not in the future when I want to run something else.

Did the same for my Champion compressor, ran wire back to the panel and put it on a 30amp breaker, motor says 24amp max draw and it was on a 30amp breaker for 6 years at the old house never popped the breaker, that was done with 10gauge because my electrician said it was fine for 30amp, I have seriously considered pulling and going with 8 before I drywall. Come on guys what is the difference in price ? its minor compared to how long you will live there. I lived in my last house 32 years, I expect I will die in this one, a extra $100 on some wire is not worth all this.

 

[sberry]

Did the same for my Champion compressor, ran wire back to the panel and put it on a 30amp breaker, motor says 24amp max draw and it was on a 30amp breaker for 6 years at the old house never popped the breaker, that was done with 10gauge because my electrician said it was fine for 30amp, I have seriously considered pulling and going with 8 before I drywall.

Why? It works fine doesnt it? The wire is good for that comp.

 

[MrMark]

Not an engineer.

Actually that table is for 2 or more plugs on a circuit. My bad.

I would use a NEMA 6-50R.

I don't see anything in the NEC that specifies a plug when using the special section on motors. I see an exception for the welders but not the motors. Looks like a flaw in the code book.

Only code is the single plug section that states plug to be same size as the circuit, which I assume is the same as the breaker - in my case 40 amp. I would have a problem upsizing the breaker to 70 amps under the special motor section 430 and keeping the 40 amp plug. Maybe that is why you said just go with the 50 amp plug.

I don't think there is an answer here.

 

[JBurgess]

I don't see anything in the NEC that specifies a plug when using the special section on motors. I see an exception for the welders but not the motors. Looks like a flaw in the code book.

Only code is the single plug section that states plug to be same size as the circuit, which I assume is the same as the breaker - in my case 40 amp. I would have a problem upsizing the breaker to 70 amps under the special motor section 430 and keeping the 40 amp plug. Maybe that is why you said just go with the 50 amp plug.

I don't think there is an answer here.

Can you find a 40 amp plug?

 

[MrMark]

Can you find a 40 amp plug?

I haven't looked. Is there no such thing?

 

[JBurgess]

Only code is the single plug section that states plug to be same size as the circuit

re-read 210.21(B)(1)

As for the 40 amp plug, I can't do all your homework

 

[MrMark]

re-read 210.21(B)(1)

As for the 40 amp plug, I can't do all your homework

OK, I see. "not less than" so it can be greater than. Makes sense unless someone sees a 50 amp plug and thinks that the circuit is wired with 50 amp wire. Funny thing is that the commentary does not read it this way.

Here's what the commentary states:

"A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit must have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. For example, a single receptacle on a 20-ampere individual branch circuit must be rated at 20 amperes in accordance with 210.21(B)(1)."

hmmmmm

I'll just see what the electrical supplier has on the plugs. I am sure they'll have the 50 amp plug.

 

[ratdoggy]

OK I'll try this question in another way "for the thread that will not die" Seriously; usually when I ask a question I'll get 1 maybe 2 responses. I didn't mean to whack a hornet nest with a stick!!

I want to wire my welder this weekend. It is a Lincoln 225 ac/dc machine it is going to be 10 feet from my panel, assuming I don't have any wire laying around. I can do the actual hookup but need to know what size wire and breaker I need to get.
Sorry but I felt my question kind of got lost in the sauce

 

[walrus]

OK I'll try this question in another way "for the thread that will not die" Seriously; usually when I ask a question I'll get 1 maybe 2 responses. I didn't mean to whack a hornet nest with a stick!!

I want to wire my welder this weekend. It is a Lincoln 225 ac/dc machine it is going to be 10 feet from my panel, assuming I don't have any wire laying around. I can do the actual hookup but need to know what size wire and breaker I need to get.
Sorry but I felt my question kind of got lost in the sauce

If you read thru this thread, you're going to see #14 thru #6 for wire. Me, I would read the manufacturers instruction and follow what they say. Their website should have recommendations .
Here is portion of the instructions for one of there 225 ac/dc welders, it may not be for yours so look in your owner manual.

Using the following instructions, have a qualified electrician
connect this receptacle (NEMA 6-50R Type) to the power
lines at the fuse box. Three #10 or larger copper wires are
required if conduit is used. For long cable runs over
100'(31m), #8 or larger wire in conduit will be needed to prevent
excessive voltage drops. Fuse the two hot lines with 50
ampere super lag type fuses as shown in the following diagram.
The center contact in the receptacle is for the grounding
connection. A green wire in the input cable connects this
contact to the frame of the welder. This insures proper
grounding of the welder frame when the welder plug is inserted
into the receptacle. If a separate disconnect switch is
used, it should have two poles for the two hot lines and both
should be fused for 50 amperes.

 

[Norcal]

This thread just won't quit... I wired my welder with 6-2 romex, not cheap as I put in 3 plugs in the garage each with a run back to the panel because I did not want to splice that thick wire. Now I don't worry if I have the right size wire or not in the future when I want to run something else.

Did the same for my Champion compressor, ran wire back to the panel and put it on a 30amp breaker, motor says 24amp max draw and it was on a 30amp breaker for 6 years at the old house never popped the breaker, that was done with 10gauge because my electrician said it was fine for 30amp, I have seriously considered pulling and going with 8 before I drywall. Come on guys what is the difference in price ? its minor compared to how long you will live there. I lived in my last house 32 years, I expect I will die in this one, a extra $100 on some wire is not worth all this.

If the compressor is not fed w/ Romex there would be no code issue w/ putting a larger breaker for it w/o increasing the wire size. ( Assuming the motor has overload protection) If that is the case the circuit breaker is only for short circuit protection & it is allowed because the rules for motors & A/C equipment is quite different then for normal branch circuits.....

PS On home inspector boards I still find it amusing when a poster is posting pics of a breaker for a A/C unit being 40A with 10 AWG conductors, it is allowed by article 440, & for motors it is allowed by article 430.

 

[Norcal]

Can you find a 40 amp plug?

Nope. You use a 50 ampere device, this is allowed by NEC table 210.24.

 

[hidollartoys]

2005 code is out. Get a new book. A guy in the business with hidollartoys can certainly afford 125 for the proper book, especially when this is how he makes his living? Am I incorrect on this?

The 2005 code IS the code used in my area. Only one jurisdiction has adopted the 2008 code and there is no indication that others will anytime soon. To much controversy.

 

[MrMark]

Nope. You use a 50 ampere device, this is allowed by NEC table 210.24.

Table 210.24 is for circuits with two or more outlets.

I am only using one outlet.

There appears to be some problems with this issue in the Code.

A 50 amp recepticle should be fine as it is a higher rating than the 40 amp circuit. It probably should be labeled at the outlet that it this is a 40 amp circuit so there is no confusion.

 

[noslo04]

PS On home inspector boards I still find it amusing when a poster is posting pics of a breaker for a A/C unit being 40A with 10 AWG conductors, it is allowed by article 440, & for motors it is allowed by article 430.

MY outdoor unit is fed by 10 AWG on a 45A breaker. The 45A breaker will be replaced by a 30A when connecting the feeder for my garage subpanel project. I am hoping that downsizing the breaker doesn't result in nuisance trips.

As far as welder circuits go, I purchased 8/2 for mine and I don't yet own a welder. After reading threads like this one, I reconsidered the 8/2 and bought some 6/3 to handle ANY welder I end up buying.

Any suggestions on what to do with the 8/2? It has been posted on craigslist for sale. I would keep it if there was a good use for it, but I already have enough 10/2 for compressor, heater, and A/C circuits.

 

[MrMark]

MY outdoor unit is fed by 10 AWG on a 45A breaker. The 45A breaker will be replaced by a 30A when connecting the feeder for my garage subpanel project. I am hoping that downsizing the breaker doesn't result in nuisance trips.

As far as welder circuits go, I purchased 8/2 for mine and I don't yet own a welder. After reading threads like this one, I reconsidered the 8/2 and bought some 6/3 to handle ANY welder I end up buying.

Any suggestions on what to do with the 8/2? It has been posted on craigslist for sale. I would keep it if there was a good use for it, but I already have enough 10/2 for compressor, heater, and A/C circuits.

I would take the 50 feet of 8/2 if I lived near you. I need that for a dedicated compressor circuit. I think you should put it up on Craigslist.

I don't know about the airconditioning rules under article 440 but I think that Norcal was stating that 10 gauge could be breakered with 40 amp under the special rules - it wasn't real clear.

I think you are making a wise choice for your welder set up. You can use that plug for anything the future may bring with the 6/3. You might want 120 there someday too so if well have that capability too. Just make sure you get a 5S box for the recepticle. It is tough to get the wire in.

 

[MrMark]

If the compressor is not fed w/ Romex there would be no code issue w/ putting a larger breaker for it w/o increasing the wire size. ( Assuming the motor has overload protection) If that is the case the circuit breaker is only for short circuit protection & it is allowed because the rules for motors & A/C equipment is quite different then for normal branch circuits.....

PS On home inspector boards I still find it amusing when a poster is posting pics of a breaker for a A/C unit being 40A with 10 AWG conductors, it is allowed by article 440, & for motors it is allowed by article 430.

Are you saying that the special welder and motor sections do not apply to Romex wire?

Where are you getting that?

And, he's exactly at the limit with his 10 gauge romex wire too. 125 percent of his rated load is 30 amps. That is using the motor rules.

 

[MrMark]

2005 code is out. Get a new book. A guy in the business with hidollartoys can certainly afford 125 for the proper book, especially when this is how he makes his living? Am I incorrect on this?

The 2005 code IS the code used in my area. Only one jurisdiction has adopted the 2008 code and there is no indication that others will anytime soon. To much controversy.

Here's a helpful map of the situation

http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/NECadoption/implement.cfm

There are a few areas that leave it up to the locals! No statewide standards. Not too many though. Most of the country is red, a little blue and then the locals.

I go by 2008 for stuff I do regardless. I doubt they made anything in the 2008 code less safe.

 

[sberry]

If a little is good a lot must be better. A 6 wont hurt a thing and thats a fact. Only advantage of 3 conductor would be that a guy could put a panel on it. Still doesn't make it for ANY welder and any machine likely found at home that comes with a 50A plug will melt down turn in to a cinder before it overheats a number 8 wire. In fact running 50 continuous thru a 8 wont overheat the wire either.

 

[MrMark]

What if he got a deal on this Miller:

http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/DC23-5.pdf

Seems he would be glad he ran the 6/3 on this one.

This needs the neutral wire too I would imagine since it offers a 115 VAC plug on it. I'm willing to bet other welders also have an optional plug 120 V plug on them.

 

[sberry]

I believe there is a special transformer on that machine to provide for 120, but, that is a specialty machine, doesn't come with a standard plug. Needs a service designed for it. Number 8 w 60 breaker I believe.

 

[JBurgess]

Yes welders usally have internal tranformers or equivalant for the 120 volt. In industrial applications they are often on a high leg of a 240V delta were 120 volt to ground or neutral is not guarenteed.

 

[JBurgess]

Ok since thread won't die I checked my largest single phase welders in my garage

60 amps @ 100 duty cycle
105 amps @ 60% duty cycle

and the winner:

188 amps @ 30% duty cycle

 

[MScott]

We seem to have a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum, so I would like to query something that happened to me.
I have a Lincoln AC arc welder (stick) that I have used for a number of years. I recently moved it to another garage, and found that it was completely dead. I first checked the outlet, and found that it had 120+ volts on each side, so it seemed OK. I then removed the cover on the welder and checked the terminals to see if the power was the same inside the case. Again, I got readings of 120+ from each wire(red & black) to the white neutral. I followed the power through the switch, and again got the same voltage.
The welder, however, did nothing....no buz, fan did not work, and no voltage at the welding cables.
I assumed that the welder was defective (it is probably 30 years old) so I purchased a new one, plugged it in and....same thing. I again checked the voltages inside and found it exactly the same as the old one.
Since I knew the new welder should work, I decided to check the power and found that the breaker in the panel had been cracked and repaired. It did show 120+ voltage output on each wire when checked, but I decided to replace it just in case and for safety. When I again hooked up and tried the welder it worked perfectly.
Anyone got any idea what happened here? I am completely stumped.

 

[Teken]

You can measure the correct voltage, it doesn't mean you will have the transfer of current (100%) running through the breaker.

More than likely it was just a fraction of current coming out of the thing not enough to operate the welder.

Regards

EVIL Teken . . .

 

[MScott]

You can measure the correct voltage, it doesn't mean you will have the transfer of current (100%) running through the breaker.

More than likely it was just a fraction of current coming out of the thing not enough to operate the welder.

Regards

EVIL Teken . . .

Thank you. I wondered if that was possible. Is there any way of checking the amount of current available? I was using a simple multimeter.

 

[walrus]

Thank you. I wondered if that was possible. Is there any way of checking the amount of current available? I was using a simple multimeter.

A simple digital meter? Did you check across both terminals on the breaker and read 230-240?