Wiring for future TIG welder and/or bigger compressor

[n2ocamaro]

Did a search but could not find an exact answer. I am running wire right now and was wondering what size wire and outlet type I should install. I am confused because this will be for future use and therefore do not know exact voltage requirements and plug type. Should I just install a empty outlet box and run 6 gauge wire (for up to 50 amps) for now and leave it disconnected at the breaker box? Then I could wire up an outlet and appropriate sized breaker when I get a bigger compressor or TIG welder?

 

[trbomax]

You will need more than 50a for a tig machine.My little lincoln 175 pro requires a 100a circut for full throttle use. The compresser would be ok with 50a, but the welder and compresser should not "share" a circut.

 

[n2ocamaro]

Wow! Will I even be able to run that out of a 100 amp sub panel? I would guess nothing else would be able to run while I was using the TIG, correct?

 

[jbberns]

Use the nameplate rating of what you have or about the size you'd be looking at

 

[Angelfire]

Go pick a machine you'd "like" to have and use it's specs. The evolution of inverter machines has reduced the current needs significantly (as an example, my 250A Tig welder only uses a 50A circuit at 60% duty cycle I think) so you may want to look into them. In general, plan for more and use less.

 

[n2ocamaro]

That's why I am trying to plan ahead. So I have more than I need. I doubt I will ever need to use a TIG at 100%, but you never know.

 

[Speedy Petey]

You certainly can share the receptacle/circuit, but you will obviously not be able to use the welder and run the compressor at the same time.
IMO you'd be safe running #6cu. 6/2 would be fine as both would be a straight 240v circuit.

 

[ToddW]

My Precision TIG 225 needs much more than 50amps at full power.

As was suggested I would find the weld you'd like and size your wire accordingly, no point in guessing and having to re-do it

Good luck!

 

[pattenp]

I was looking at the Lincoln Tigs 175 through 225's and they all called for a 60A circuit.

 

[n2ocamaro]

Looking at welders now. I will be installing insulation and OSB board after the electric is finished so I need to determine what I need before hand.

 

[sberry]

A 6 wire will do even if the machine needs more than 50A

 

[Speedy Petey]

My Precision TIG 225 needs much more than 50amps at full power.

You need to look at the input power, not output.

Your (I assume) Lincoln Precision TIG 225 has an input draw of 39A @ 230V.

 

[gumbudah]

I just went through this, after looking at a few of the miller machines, and landed on 6/2 wire. After that, since I dont know what model id end up with, i figured it might also need a neutral so i put in 6/3...

 

[eljefino]

If you read the NEC carefully intermittent stuff like welders are allowed somewhat thinner wire. There's also the "one man shop" rule where multiple 240V appliances are assumed to be in operation one at a time.

My Lincoln stick welder has 10-gauge wire in its pigtail; I feel fine feeding it 8 gauge with a 40 Amp breaker, and have had no issues ever with this setup.

 

[ToddW]

You need to look at the input power, not output.

Your (I assume) Lincoln Precision TIG 225 has an input draw of 39A @ 230V.

That may be the input power requirements but that's not what's required when starting the weld. That's why they call for a 60 or 75A setup (I forget the exact one which is why I said >50a).

This is the same reason why air compressors that are 5HP routinely trip 30AMP breakers, and the same holds true for Plasma Cutters starting the pierce, refrigerators turning on, etc, etc.

Running amp draw is only 1 piece of the puzzle.

 

[n2ocamaro]

I think I have it narrowed down to the Miller Diversion 180. A friend has the 180 so I am going to try it out and contact Miller for wiring requirements.

 

[pattenp]

The Miller Diversion 180 comes with a 6-50P 50A 230V plug. So put in a 50A circuit. It also comes with 115V plugs but I would not use 115V.

 

[PT Doc]

Hobart 230 requires 50a circuit pet Hobart.

 

[Speedy Petey]

That may be the input power requirements but that's not what's required when starting the weld. That's why they call for a 60 or 75A setup (I forget the exact one which is why I said >50a).

This is the same reason why air compressors that are 5HP routinely trip 30AMP breakers, and the same holds true for Plasma Cutters starting the pierce, refrigerators turning on, etc, etc.

Running amp draw is only 1 piece of the puzzle.

Start up is taken into account with regard to breakers.
Also, motors, air conditioners and welders follow different rules if one cares to implement them in a residential setting.

The reason a 5hp motor would trip a 30A breaker is because the average true 5hp motor pulls nearly 28FLA.

I am interested to where you see that Lincoln "calls for" a 60-75A setup.

 

[n2ocamaro]

I just talked to Miller and they said to use a 30 amp breaker but could not recommend wire size as it might conflict with local code.

 

[rusty monkey]

Lincoln Precision Tig 225 draws 39A @ rated output.
Rated output is only 90A @ 100% duty cycle.
Full output is 225A @ 10% duty cycle, the owners manual says it will
draw maximum of 85A. These are assuming 230V input.
Miller Syncrowave 200 draws 54A @ rated output which is 150A @ 40% duty cycle.

 

[pattenp]

If Miller said to use a 30A circuit I'd use #10 wire to be on the safe side. Since it comes with a 6-50 plug I still think I'd put in a 50A circuit using a 6-50 outlet.

 

[ToddW]

Start up is taken into account with regard to breakers.
Also, motors, air conditioners and welders follow different rules if one cares to implement them in a residential setting.

The reason a 5hp motor would trip a 30A breaker is because the average true 5hp motor pulls nearly 28FLA.

I am interested to where you see that Lincoln "calls for" a 60-75A setup.

I`m not going to argue with you, I have the unit, and it needs more than 39A to run at full power.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/ServiceNavigator-public/LINCOLN3/IM895.pdf

Is the manual. 85AMPS @ MAXIMUM POWER.

"1 Output Limits allow for continuous max. rated load on 115vac auxiliary receptacle.
2 Wiring and protection based on the 2005 U.S. National Electric Code. Use a Super Lag type fuse or circuit breaker with a delay in tripping action. Models with NEMA 6-50P plug may be used with a 50 amp protected 6-50R receptacle, or with a maximum 70 amp protected 6-50R receptacle if dedicated for the welder."

There is the specific part where they suggest a 70AMP for dedicated welder.

Lincoln Precision Tig 225 draws 39A @ rated output.
Rated output is only 90A @ 100% duty cycle.
Full output is 225A @ 10% duty cycle, the owners manual says it will
draw maximum of 85A. These are assuming 230V input.
Miller Syncrowave 200 draws 54A @ rated output which is 150A @ 40% duty cycle.

Thanks, that's a good comparison.

I posted manual for Lincoln above for all to see.

It's good to really understand how Lincoln and Miller rate these units.

 

[srmofo]

My diversion 165 runs on a 30 amp breaker and 10 wire. I understand its slightly less capable than some of these machines mentioned, but the machine really need to be accounted for. Im not running a pro shop, and this lil guy is more than capable of anything I can do right now. The inverters draw much less power than the transformer machines

The manual said a 30 amp time delay which I was unable to locate, or a 35 amp breaker. I havent tripped it yet.

I installed a 6-50p on my table saw also so I can share the outlet between machines. Im still contemplating switching the 6-30p on my compressor to the same 6-50p just so I have more choices. I just labeled the plate fixture as a 220v 30amp. If I move I will probably just unhook the receptacle and install a blank cover plate labeled.

 

[ToddW]

My diversion 165 runs on a 30 amp breaker and 10 wire. I understand its slightly less capable than some of these machines mentioned, but the machine really need to be accounted for. Im not running a pro shop, and this lil guy is more than capable of anything I can do right now. The inverters draw much less power than the transformer machines

The manual said a 30 amp time delay which I was unable to locate, or a 35 amp breaker. I havent tripped it yet.

I installed a 6-50p on my table saw also so I can share the outlet between machines. Im still contemplating switching the 6-30p on my compressor to the same 6-50p just so I have more choices. I just labeled the plate fixture as a 220v 30amp. If I move I will probably just unhook the receptacle and install a blank cover plate labeled.

Yeah, I wish an Inverter was in my budget but for the power required it was pretty darn expensive :/

 

[sberry]

The manual said a 30 amp time delay which I was unable to locate, or a 35 amp breaker. I havent tripped it yet.

Breakers have a time delay, they need to word it like they do, some of the language seems kind of old in the manuals.

 

[n2ocamaro]

If Miller said to use a 30A circuit I'd use #10 wire to be on the safe side. Since it comes with a 6-50 plug I still think I'd put in a 50A circuit using a 6-50 outlet.

I think am going go ahead and run wire for both a 30A and a 50A circuit.

 

[srmofo]

Breakers have a time delay, they need to word it like they do, some of the language seems kind of old in the manuals.

I dont know much about electricity, but the way they worded was pretty clear to me that they are in fact 2 different types of breakers, although I did have the rating wrong.
pg18 bottom diagram

2 “Time-Delay” fuses are UL class “RK5” .
3 “Normal Operating” (general purpose - no intentional delay) fuses are UL class “K5” (up to and including 60 amp), and UL class “H” ( 65 amp and
above).

From what I am getting it looks like rk5 has a 10 sec delay, and a N.O. breaker has a 1/60 delay

Im not trying to fight with ya, just hope to gain a little more insight into it. I thought because they had 2 different class breakers they were in fact different. Are you saying this is not correct?

 

[sberry]

You can still tailor fuses but as far as I know modern breakers are time delay, used on all kinds of motor circuits, deliver current several times the run ratings, like an air comp, AC equipment, welders, etc. You buy a breaker off the shelf at the box store, they all the same.