Wiring help!

Firetacoma · Nov 28, 2009

My bathroom light and fan turn on together. The fan is REALLY loud and my wife really wants them to be on separate switches. I popped the face plate off and here is what I have:
3 wires coming into the box, the white wires (3 total) from each tie together and go to an outlet in the box. The black wires from 2 of the wires tie together and go to the switch. The final wire goes to the switch and the outlet.

All of the grounds go together and go to the appropriate ground spot on the switch and outlet.

I have a feeling I'm in way over my head here... based on what I've (attempted to) describe, does it sound like it's possible to just put another switch in for the light and fan or does a new wire need to be run?

If this was confusing, let me know and I can attempt a drawing.

Sokoloff · Nov 28, 2009

Need a new wire. Sure there's no red/white/black wire coming to the box? If so, you may be in luck, but if all you see is white, black, and bare copper, you're SOL.

Firetacoma · Nov 28, 2009

Dang. I was afraid of that. That takes me from "could stumble through it" to "no chance I can do that myself".

No copper in this house! All aluminum... though it has been mitigated properly (all connections spliced to copper and heat shrink applied).

airwalk · Nov 28, 2009

I am not an electrician by trade, but I have a some wiring knowledge, so take my advice with discretion.
By the sound of it, you might be in luck. It sounds to me like the power is coming into the switch box on the cable going to the outlet and switch, and the other two cables in the box are going to the light/fan. So you should be able to take one of the black wires going to the side of the switch opposite the side connected to the outlet and connect this to another switch. You could test this simply by seperating the wires going to the non-outlet side of the switch and connecting just one to the switch to see what comes on, light only, fan only, nothing (not likely). Hopefully this helps!

Edit: Of course I'm assuming that the only things that turn on with that switch is the light/fan, if that's not the case then my idea will probably not work.

Firetacoma · Nov 28, 2009

A glimmer of hope! I had guessed that was a possibility as well... and a great way to test the theory.

airwalk · Nov 28, 2009

Let us know how it goes if you try this.

Charles (in GA) · Nov 28, 2009

Install a pull chain canopy switch on the fan. Then you can use it just when you want to.

As an alternative, consider spending the money and installing a new fan.

Charles

Firetacoma · Nov 28, 2009

This is a bathroom vent fan... I think a pull chain would look a bit goofy.

mrb · Nov 28, 2009

is there a small X10 receiver you could cram into the fan box?

aabirdman · Dec 2, 2009

I agree with airwalk. seperate theonee of the two blacks on the out side of the switch. If only one of the fan or light cime on Great. Replace the switch with a duplex switch and your home free.

saabman · Dec 2, 2009

Just rewired one of my bathrooms and learned in the process that "code" requires fan and light to come on together if there is no window in the bathroom. Did not apply in my situation (I have a window) but worth knowing.

I am not an electrician, but you need a mininimum of 4 wires going to the light/fan combo. Typically these will be black, red, white, and bare (ground). Fan and light can share a common ground and neutral (white). Red and black are separate switched hots to control the light and fan.

Chris

walrus · Dec 2, 2009

I believe its Panasonic who makes a really quiet fan light combo, you can barely hear them running. Maybe replace the whole unit to get some peace and quiet?

oleguy · Dec 2, 2009

Firetacoma said:
Dang. I was afraid of that. That takes me from "could stumble through it" to "no chance I can do that myself".

No copper in this house! All aluminum... though it has been mitigated properly (all connections spliced to copper and heat shrink applied).

if i read this right,you just twisted copper to aulimnum and applied heat shrink?
first off,heat shrink is not code compliant.secondly,you need a anti oxident such as no-ox on the splice.and a wire nut.

The Muffin Man · Dec 2, 2009

OT:

Chris, that is a beautiful Sonnet III in your avatar

Firetacoma · Dec 2, 2009

oleguy said:
if i read this right,you just twisted copper to aulimnum and applied heat shrink?
first off,heat shrink is not code compliant.secondly,you need a anti oxident such as no-ox on the splice.and a wire nut.

It was professionally mitigated... I may have misunderstood the exact process, that's just how I understood it. I have a certificate thingy.

Number22 · Dec 2, 2009

The guy that was in my shop before me had the same problem! It was REAL easy to fix though, couldn't have taken more than 3 minutes!

Just pop out the fan when you're not using it and plug in the lights! :lol_hitti

Number22 · Dec 2, 2009

You need one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/XPFM-l-X10-PRO-...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5189987337

And one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/X10-Stick-A-Swi...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a51bc1e5b

mrb · Dec 2, 2009

oleguy said:
if i read this right,you just twisted copper to aulimnum and applied heat shrink?
first off,heat shrink is not code compliant.secondly,you need a anti oxident such as no-ox on the splice.and a wire nut.

obviously twisting copper to aluminum is not ok, but heat shrink is quite common and code compliant when properly used. Copalum crimps use heatshrink caps (which is what the OP may have). There are many other splices which also use heat shrink as well.

Charles (in GA) · Dec 2, 2009

Direct copper to aluminum contact is not allowed. All of the CU/AL splices you find will connect them, without allowing them to touch each other. Use the proper splices or you will regret it later.

Charles

oleguy · Dec 3, 2009

Charles (in GA) said:
Direct copper to aluminum contact is not allowed. All of the CU/AL splices you find will connect them, without allowing them to touch each other. Use the proper splices or you will regret it later.

Charles

by the way,IDEAL makes a certified purple wire nut for copper to aluminum.

nate379 · Dec 3, 2009

Yes. That is what I have in my house and you can hardly tell that the fan is on.

The ones I have have a 4w nightlight in them too, though I don't use it.

walrus said:
I believe its Panasonic who makes a really quiet fan light combo, you can barely hear them running. Maybe replace the whole unit to get some peace and quiet?

airwalk · Dec 3, 2009

Any updates firetacoma, or is will this be this weekends project?

saabman said:
Just rewired one of my bathrooms and learned in the process that "code" requires fan and light to come on together if there is no window in the bathroom. Did not apply in my situation (I have a window) but worth knowing.

I am not an electrician, but you need a mininimum of 4 wires going to the light/fan combo. Typically these will be black, red, white, and bare (ground). Fan and light can share a common ground and neutral (white). Red and black are separate switched hots to control the light and fan.

Chris

Unless that has changed recently, that is not code here in Canada as my 4 yr old house is not setup that way.
The way I understand his original description, it sounds like there is essentially a 3 conductor cable coming from the light/fan only it is split into 2 2 conductor cables with the hot from each cable being switched together currently.

saabman · Dec 3, 2009

What I was trying to say is you need 4 conductors if you want to switch the light and fan separately. 3 conductors implies that that fan/light come on together as there is only one "hot" going to the light.

Chris

Firetacoma · Dec 3, 2009

I admit that I overlooked the obvious... a new, QUIETER fan. Duh.

This is my new plan. However, my wife just got laid off and things are a bit tight right now money wise. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I don't mind having the fan on (especially, since was mentioned there is no window in the room) it's just SO freaking loud.

airwalk · Dec 5, 2009

saabman said:
What I was trying to say is you need 4 conductors if you want to switch the light and fan separately. 3 conductors implies that that fan/light come on together as there is only one "hot" going to the light.

Chris

I understand what you are saying Chris, but typically the ground (bare copper) is not considered a conductor, so really you need a minimum of 3 conductors to switch the light and fan seperately. It sounds like firetacoma has 4 conductors coming from the light/fan assembly so this is just as good.

Firetacoma said:
I admit that I overlooked the obvious... a new, QUIETER fan. Duh.

This is my new plan. However, my wife just got laid off and things are a bit tight right now money wise. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I don't mind having the fan on (especially, since was mentioned there is no window in the room) it's just SO freaking loud.

Just a suggestion, a simple light switch is much cheaper than an entirely new fan, but I guess if you can't stand the fan anyway when it is on... it's entirely up to you. Sorry to hear about your wife's job.

WinFred · Dec 6, 2009

sawap the fan out for a Panasonic old work... at one or two zones..

you'll thank you...
yur wife will thank you...
and yur house will be better off...

Wiring help!

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