Wiring idiots

[Reit38]

So I don't claim to be good at all with electric but my house must of been wired by idiots. The left switch is a 3way and the right one is a single pole (that I cannot find controlling anything) these switches are located and the top of the stairs. The 3 way controls the light above the steps. At the far end of the hall is the only switch for the hallway.(which is also a single pole)

So the issue (s)
I tore apart the 2 3ways and now can't get it to work. I'm assuming I switched wires. The light works but the switches do not work in conjunction with each other.

Other issue is with the switch on the right they have a wire as u can see coming over from that to the 3way. From what I can tell it was a jumper they soldered in.

What in the world is going on



The 3way worked just fine prior to me tearing into it to update the switch

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[Cmreschke]

Best guess from single to 3 way is your common.

 

[American Locomotive]

What do you mean the switches don't work in conjunction? Do they both have to be in a specific position for the light to come on?

 

[Reit38]

Edit

 

[H-D Dad]

Maybe it went to a ceiling fan or a wall plug. Have there been any renovations to the house? Good luck

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Best guess from single to 3 way is your common.

The wire between the 2 switches would be the hot leg not the common.

However it is wired to the common/black screw on the switch.

 

[Reit38]

The wire between the 2 switches would be the hot leg not the common.

However it is wired to the common/black screw on the switch.

So would it matter which screw the white and red go to then
And wouldn't the other 3way be wired the exact same way then

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[American Locomotive]

What's important is that the "line side" 3-way switch has the hot wire attached to the common screw, and that the "load side" 3-way switch has the load's hot-wire connected to that switch's common.

3-way switches work by toggling the common terminal between the two "traveler" terminals. If you accidentally hook a traveler terminal up to the line or load side wire, the switch will only work in one position.

It doesn't matter which way you hook up the traveler wires, as long as on both ends the wires are attached to the traveler terminals on the switch.

 

[Reit38]

What's important is that the "line side" 3-way switch has the hot wire attached to the common screw, and that the "load side" 3-way switch has the load's hot-wire connected to that switch's common.

3-way switches work by toggling the common terminal between the two "traveler" terminals. If you accidentally hook a traveler terminal up to the line or load side wire, the switch will only work in one position.

That's what's going on now with it

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[Marctrees]

You do realize a 3 way sw is a single pole double throw, with the colored screw the "common", and the remaining two screws the two that it toggles between.

Too hard to tell everything, even though good photos.

The wire that connects to both switches, is simply the hot feed for both.

---- One of those should go to the colored screw of the new switch you installed -------

Totally normal.

The other two wires, go to either remaining screw, does NOT matter.

It's simple, but too complicated to explain through this typing ****.

Just call an Electrician, and unless there are other problems, and probably not, he should be able to fix it in a few minutes.

Marc

 

[Dr Stan]

looks like some of the **** I found in our house. I ended up tearing it out and starting from scratch.

Same on some plumbing. Drain line started on the East end with the kitchen. Went uphill to the laundry at about the midway point of the house. Then down & then back up to the manifold connected to the sewer line going out to the street. I believe the local village idiot was hired to change the plumbing from iron to PVC.

One never knows exactly what one will find in a 50 yr old house. At least I now know whats what, but I still have an aluminum circuit I need to trace & replace with copper.

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

Flip the 3-way switch over so the short black (HOT) wire can reach the black screw that the white is now on, then put the white where the black had been. This set up you have is really Bass-akwards with not having the incoming hot in the ceiling (light) box. I think you just got your new switch in upside down and it threw you off the right path.

 

[Marctrees]

What's important is that the "line side" 3-way switch has the hot wire attached to the common screw, and that the "load side" 3-way switch has the load's hot-wire connected to that switch's common.

3-way switches work by toggling the common terminal between the two "traveler" terminals. If you accidentally hook a traveler terminal up to the line or load side wire, the switch will only work in one position.

It doesn't matter which way you hook up the traveler wires, as long as on both ends the wires are attached to the traveler terminals on the switch.

Good explanation. Marc

 

[Marctrees]

looks like some of the **** I found in our house. I ended up tearing it out and starting from scratch.

Same on some plumbing. Drain line started on the East end with the kitchen. Went uphill to the laundry at about the midway point of the house. Then down & then back up to the manifold connected to the sewer line going out to the street. I believe the local village idiot was hired to change the plumbing from iron to PVC.

One never knows exactly what one will find in a 50 yr old house. At least I now know whats what, but I still have an aluminum circuit I need to trace & replace with copper.

I see NO obvious "****", just the old original style Romex.

You do not need to replace the AL.

Nothing wrong w AL in itself.

You just need to terminate it properly.

Google before you start tearing open walls needlessly. Marc

 

[teamextreme]

Flip the 3-way switch over so the short black (HOT) wire can reach the black screw that the white is now on, then put the white where the black had been. This set up you have is really Bass-akwards with not having the incoming hot in the ceiling (light) box. I think you just got your new switch in upside down and it threw you off the right path.

I believe this will fix your problem. The black wire coming from the right side looks to me to be the hot feed into the circuit coming from a taped, soldered splice, which should land on the black screw, common terminal on the 3-way.

 

[Marinegrunt]

I had the same issue when I first started getting in to home improvement years back. Three ways seem very confusing at first but are rather simple once it clicks.

 

[CJ7VFR]

My house was built in 1955, and when I moved in it still had the original 3-way light switches at the top and bottom of the stairway up to my second floor. These switches had been painted over every time they changed the color of the walls. As far as I could tell they did this so the switches would match the walls.

They didn't work well anymore with all that paint stuffed inside them, and I replaced them with new ones. Two things I found interesting about the old switches was that the three screws on them were black (not one black for the common and the other two a different color for the travelers), and that the switches worked using a small round vial full of mercury inside them. When you flipped either switch the mercury would make or break contact with a metal piece inside the vial, and the vial was making contact with a small copper tab on the outside of the vial. It was kind of cool.

Anyway, back then the wire they used to hook up the 3-way switches consisted of two blacks and one red. I forgot to note which black wire went to which black screw on the old switches, so when I first connected the new switches up I had the common wire on the wrong screw and the light would only come on from the switch at the top of the stairs. Doohhhh.

It took me awhile moving the wires around on each switch to get it right. I got a lot of exercise that day walking up and down the stairs...

Jim

 

[yeldogt]

The joys of an old house !

Two things I would recommend -- (1) don't assume anything. (2) Get yourself an few "proper" electrical tools .. the plug in socket checker and the voltage probe being the first two -- both cheap and important (especially the probe)

If you are going to do much electrical. Read a few books and get a few more tools -- Having the proper screwdriver/pliers/ striper makes a huge difference.

 

[yeldogt]

My house was built in 1955, and when I moved in it still had the original 3-way light switches at the top and bottom of the stairway up to my second floor. These switches had been painted over every time they changed the color of the walls. As far as I could tell they did this so the switches would match the walls.

They didn't work well anymore with all that paint stuffed inside them, and I replaced them with new ones. Two things I found interesting about the old switches was that the three screws on them were black (not one black for the common and the other two a different color for the travelers), and that the switches worked using a small round vial full of mercury inside them. When you flipped either switch the mercury would make or break contact with a metal piece inside the vial, and the vial was making contact with a small copper tab on the outside of the vial. It was kind of cool.

Anyway, back then the wire they used to hook up the 3-way switches consisted of two blacks and one red. I forgot to note which black wire went to which black screw on the old switches, so when I first connected the new switches up I had the common wire on the wrong screw and the light would only come on from the switch at the top of the stairs. Doohhhh.

It took me awhile moving the wires around on each switch to get it right. I got a lot of exercise that day walking up and down the stairs...

Jim

Those mercury switches came after WWII .. but gained popularity in the 60's as they did not "click" like the older style .. they were "quiet switches".. The style around today (no mercury) replaced everything by the 70's. Just like the older thermostats that used mercury switches -- it's toxic and should not be tossed in the trash. The Honeywell round being the most popular example.

Mercury switches were a common trunk switch in the auto world for a while.

 

[Reit38]

Thanks guys. I hope to get it figured out after work tonight then climb up in attic to try and track down where the switch on the right goes. Is it normal to have 4 banks of wired coming into the box for only 2 switches

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[Reit38]

The joys of an old house !

Two things I would recommend -- (1) don't assume anything. (2) Get yourself an few "proper" electrical tools .. the plug in socket checker and the voltage probe being the first two -- both cheap and important (especially the probe)

If you are going to do much electrical. Read a few books and get a few more tools -- Having the proper screwdriver/pliers/ striper makes a huge difference.

Ha no more assuming for this house. I do have both outlet checker and probe. After giving up on the 3way I started changing out outlets I came across one that read "open hot" so I can add that to the list of electrical

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[yeldogt]

Thanks guys. I hope to get it figured out after work tonight then climb up in attic to try and track down where the switch on the right goes. Is it normal to have 4 banks of wired coming into the box for only 2 switches

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It's unbelievable what one encounters -- the rules on box fill have changed .. thanks fully. It was typical to use the typical central ceiling fixture box for just about everything --- stuffed to the gills

 

[Reit38]

3way is finally workin guys thanks. Now onto fixing the other switch and outlets that are reading open hots but outlets on each side them are correct

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[Reit38]

well got all the outlets figured out. still have not climbed into attic to trace the wire from the one switch. is there a way an electrician can do that easier then following the wire in the attic to see what it feeds.

also found out tonight that my motion light that i replaced a switch for is no long working. i have power coming in and out but the light does not work (also changed out the bulb) guess tomorrow i try metering it out to see what the switch is putting out and test at the light itself.




one thing after another

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

Just shut off all the breakers except the one that the switch is on, then use one of those voltage tester "pens" to check all of the outlets and ceiling boxes and see if there is a hot circuit somewhere. You may need to remove some outlet covers and even ceiling light bases to be sure there are not any capped wires in them. I suspect your missing switch circuit may be just a capped wire somewhere. Get a penlight so you can see to the back of the boxes past the outlets. you may even have to take them loose to see behind them.

 

[FreddiFiche]

Unless the picture got flopped, or I'm looking at it wrong, it looks like the wire is wrapped around the screw the wrong way. Should wrap clockwise, so the screw pulls it in. This obviously wasn't the problem...but something i think i noticed on the third picture, red wire.

 

[Reit38]

Unless the picture got flopped, or I'm looking at it wrong, it looks like the wire is wrapped around the screw the wrong way. Should wrap clockwise, so the screw pulls it in. This obviously wasn't the problem...but something i think i noticed on the third picture, red wire.

Thanks FreddiFiche, that was temp trying to figure out the wiring. Since then I have got the 3way switches working. Now I'm trying to figure out what the switch on the right controls and why another switch that controls my outside motion light has stopped working since updating the switch




Tommorrow I plan on heading to HF to buy a wire tracer and a circuit breaker tracer to add to my arsenal
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[Mustang51js]

Switch the black wire with the white wire

 

[tailshaft56]

It is possible to split an outlet and have one half switched while the other stays hot. You need to test both top and bottom to see if it is switched.