Wiring Multiple Florescent Lights Together

[Climb On!]

So, I'm in the midst of my workbench build and I'm on to my upper cabinet stage. Sorry up front for the lack of pictures, I'm out of town on business...and, well I just couldn't help but think about the shop. I've got the 8' workbench built (see the old picture attached) along with the pegboard for some handy tool storage. As I mentioned, next up are the wall cabinets and then the rolling tool cabinets which will store under the workbench.

My garage lights (two 4' florescent lights) and outlets (2 ceiling outlets for the garage door openers and 5 wall outlets) are all on one 15 amp breaker. Over my workbench there was one wall outlet, so I tapped into it and wired 4 additional outlets (in parallel) above my workbench.

The link below is not the workbench I built, but the inspiration for my lighting. I will be hanging four 2' wide wall cabinets above my 8' workbench. I'd like to add under cabinet florescent lights to each cabinet as well as build an overhanging valence to mount two 4' florescent lights.

So how do I figure out if I can wire together the four under cabinet lights, the two 4' overhanging lights, and the 5 wall outlets? I'm guessing the better answer is to tap into one of the existing ceiling outlets (for the existing garage lights) to use for the lighting, but that wouldn't be as clean. Would it even matter since its all on the same breaker anyway?

http://plansnow.com/dn3091c.html

Chuck

 

[Falcon67]

If there was any way, I would try to get those outlets on a separate breaker. If for no other reason than having light while working on the plugs and vice-versa. As it is now, if you are working on something and pop the breaker you are out of power and in the dark at the same instant. If not, I don't see much load from lighting there anyway. Maybe 2A if that on lighting.

 

[Climb On!]

Thanks Falcon67. Unfortunately, the brainchild who built this house didn't leave any room for growth in the box...every slot is filled with a breaker. I guess I could look at putting in a couple doubled breakers to free up some slots, I had to do that on a previous home I bought that had some illegal doubled up wiring on a single breaker.

So it sounds like overall the under cabinet and overhanging lights might only be about 2 of the 15 amps I can pull on that circuit. Which, the way it is now, it wouldn't matter if it were coming from one outlet or the other.

If it becomes a problem and I decide to separate the one circuit into two, how do I go about isolating one set of outlets from the others? Unfortunately I don't know how the wiring was laid out. I imagine I'd need to try and find where the circuit is joined to the panel and split it there as well as somewhere in the middle of the circuit.

 

[Falcon67]

You'll have to survey your box to see how much is on which breakers and then decide. If you have a couple of light load circuits like lights or a spare bedroom, those are usually decent candidates for a double breaker - if one is offered for the box. Help to get a feel for how much is on either side of your incoming power to make sure you're not moving too much to one leg.

Only way to break them up is to try and trace things in the attic and/or walls. I cut in some external lighting when we moved here and it took a while to find the right power feed, switch leg, etc to cut into for the switched light power. Get one of those pens that lights up/makes noise when brought close to a power line - that can help you source out hot lines and switched lines. Old work can be a PITA.

Like that bench link - nice layout. Hmm - think I saw plans for that in one of my magazines

 

[Climb On!]

Falcon67, thanks again. My home's new construction and they're still building in the neighborhood, so maybe the developer's electrician can tell me how they wired the garage. They must have put it all in parallel. Regardless, after I separate several outlets, how do I bring them all the way back to the panel? Hmm, this is gonna take some thinking.

 

[thelowlife]

Wow your home is a new construction and there isn't any empty spots on the panel? That is a bad practice and your finding out exactly why.

As Falcon mentioned the best practice is to have your lighting on seperate circuits. As for splitting into other circuits consider the electrical code for your area.

In Canada you can't 'tie' into a spare bedroom because they are required to be Arc Fault breaker servcing only bedroom outlets - some exceptions do occur. You shouldn't exceed 80%.. example 12amps for a 15amp breaker

 

[Climb On!]

Yeah, when I did my walk through and saw the panel was maxed out, I couldn't believe it. I was also surprised there was no 220 in the garage or laundry room either.

Maybe I'll look at tying the workbench lighting into the ceiling outlets, in the event I can figure out how to separate the circuit.

 

[Gregishome]

I agree with all here, and all that has been said about no future spaces fiasco in a new home. geeez...

I say keep it simple and less work and $$$ . ...

Just figure out where you will be using the most power and add a dedicated circuit and oulets at that location, rather than moving circuits around. ...

You will need to get half space breakers to free up a single space or get what is called a "tandem" breaker for the extra outlet circuit. Must be GFI receptacles installed the new ciruit also.

Be prepared also when the house is up for sale in your future, when someone makes a offer and gets a home inspection, it will be gigged for the tandem breakers. May be a small subpanel in your future ?

 

[regguy1]

I wired mine together rather than install 20+ boxes in the ceiling, you can see them in this video:

 

[Falcon67]

Be prepared also when the house is up for sale in your future, when someone makes a offer and gets a home inspection, it will be gigged for the tandem breakers. May be a small subpanel in your future ?

We used a top quality inspector (know the guy) and he didn't indicate that tandems were anything special, at least here in Texas. I had a couple in our old 150A panel.

New construction and panel full - gaak. However, the house we are in now was built in 2001 and the panel has no spaces. So it goes.

What might be easier is to try and ID a lightly loaded light circuit in the house and plumb your shop lights into that. That's just a splice or two and a switch leg - pretty easy in the scheme of things.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Be prepared also when the house is up for sale in your future, when someone makes a offer and gets a home inspection, it will be gigged for the tandem breakers. May be a small subpanel in your future ?

It depends. If the house has a 30 space panel with ten slots designed for tandem breakers, then it is a 30/40 panel and would be quite legal. If it is a 30 slot panel, and does NOT have any spaces intended for tandems, then any tandem breakers at all or anything over 30 circuits would be a code issue.

There are two types of tandem breakers, those that are intended for installation in slots designed for their use, and those tandems that are designed for installation in ANY slot. You need to be very careful when using the all purpose tandems.

Here are what regular stabs in a Siemens, Murray, or Cutler-Hammer BR (Bryant) panelboard look like...

Here are what stabs designed for tandems in a Siemens, Murray, or Cutler-Hammer BR (Bryant) panelboard look like... notice the notches in the middle of the stabs.......

Here is a comparison of Siemens tandem breakers, the one on the left being designed to install ONLY on stabs with the notches in them, and the "universal" or "all purpose" tandem, on the right, which will fit an un-notched stab.

GE tandems are actually loose, 1/2" wide breakers. The have a different type of clip on them that clips over an extra piece welded on the stabs in the locations where tandems are permitted.

Square D tandems only come as two breakers in one, and have protruding plastic lugs on the bottom that will allow the breaker to only fit in slots in the panel which are intended for tandems.

There is no reason for a "home inspector" to gig a full panel or one with tandems if they are in slots where tandems are allowed.

Charles

 

[Climb On!]

I wired mine together rather than install 20+ boxes in the ceiling, you can see them in this video:

regguy1, your garage looks great...be careful with that lift or you'll have a second floor!

I agree, wiring them together is the way to go.

 

[Climb On!]

It depends. If the house has a 30 space panel with ten slots designed for tandem breakers, then it is a 30/40 panel and would be quite legal. If it is a 30 slot panel, and does NOT have any spaces intended for tandems, then any tandem breakers at all or anything over 30 circuits would be a code issue.

There are two types of tandem breakers, those that are intended for installation in slots designed for their use, and those tandems that are designed for installation in ANY slot. You need to be very careful when using the all purpose tandems.

Charles, there is no room in the panel for any additional breakers, but I didn't know there was a different design for tandem or not. So when I get back home in a couple weeks, I'll have to investigate more. Are the odds on my side that if its a new panel it is designed to accommodate tandem breakers?

Chuck

 

[Climb On!]

I forgot I had a photo on my phone of the peg board and the new outlets...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Charles, there is no room in the panel for any additional breakers, but I didn't know there was a different design for tandem or not. So when I get back home in a couple weeks, I'll have to investigate more. Are the odds on my side that if its a new panel it is designed to accommodate tandem breakers?

Chuck

Look at the label inside the door and see what model it is. Model numbers like THIS Siemens 20 space, 40 circuit model P2040L1200CU tells you it is designed to accept tandems in all spaces, as it has 20 spaces but legal for 40 circuits. The model also tells you it is 200 amp, and has a copper (CU) busbar.

HERE is a GE 200 amp with 32 spaces but legal for 40 circuits, thus the bottom eight breaker positions (4 on each side) are the tandem positions. In this case, the model number TLM3220CCU1K won't tell us how may circuits its OK for, but a new house, you can easily find the model number and specs on the panel.

Charles

 

[Climb On!]

Thanks Charles.

 

[Climb On!]

OK, so here's my panel. Any help on how to interpret what my options are for tandem breakers?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Not enough info to go on. This is a Homeline panel, I can tell from the breakers. Need to see the panel model number and the rest of the placarding on the inside of the door. It will tell the story if we can read it.

Edit: just realized this is one of those "western" outdoors panels.

Charles

 

[Climb On!]

Yeah, this is about all there is on the panel and door. I'll take another look, but I believe its all I got.

 

[pattenp]

On the label it should have info such as 30 space/30 circuit or 30 space/40 circuit. If the space and circuit numbers are the same then the panel does not take tandem breakers.

Edit: Never mind. I see Charles already said this.

 

[Falcon67]

Looks like it has a couple of tandems already. 20 circuit with 22 switches. The only HOM 20s @ 200A I see in their PDF are all labeled "...2040..." and the wiring diagrams show tandems. Still depends on the model number.

http://static.schneider-electric.us...rs/QO Three Phase Load Centers/1100CT0501.pdf

 

[ishiboo]

Looks like it has a couple of tandems already. 20 circuit with 22 switches. The only HOM 20s @ 200A I see in their PDF are all labeled "...2040..." and the wiring diagrams show tandems. Still depends on the model number.

http://static.schneider-electric.us...rs/QO Three Phase Load Centers/1100CT0501.pdf

Chances are you'r right, it's a 20-space 40-circuit panel. I've only seen the 20/40s sold recently in the 200A.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The info is at the top of the door placard. Cannot see that in the pic.

If it has a diagram where you write the names for the circuits it will also give you a hint as it will have an "A" and "B" for each number position if it accepts tandems.

Charles

 

[Climb On!]

The info is at the top of the door placard. Cannot see that in the pic.

Charles

Phew, well sorry about that gang. I thought I had taken the pic such that everything was showing. Nope. Sure enough, I looked again and there at the top was the catalog number. It's got 20 spaces for 40 circuits.

So my next step is to figure out how I can split my garage into at least two different circuits. There is a dedicated "irrigation" circuit for my sprinklers. That I believe is just the outlet the timer is plugged into. If that's the case, that gives me an outlet on a separate circuit...a step in the right direction.

 

[mrgm]

change irrigation breaker to 20amp. Make sure your irrigation receptical has trip breaker gfi installed. tap into irrigation circuit for lighting, all on one breaker. put power recepticals on own line so your lights dont dim when your using power tools or small compressor.

BUT--
what I would do. pay the electritian 300 bucks to remove panel and install one with more spaces. You will be glad you did it in the future. Would take me about 3 hours to do, he would probably do in 1 hour. not many breakers to move, all circuits are there already

Note. I would never spec a panel that small on a main panel for a house much less a sub panel that is filled to capacity. i would spec something at least 1 or 2 nominal sizes larger than needed. never know when the icemaker or garage frig would be added. Hell even a lift or patio expansion would put you over on this.

yes i cant spell- if there are errors

 

[Climb On!]

Well,

I guess my requirements have morphed from needing to wire up several florescent lights for my workbench to needing to add to my current circuits which consists of one 15A with garage lights and garage outlets, and one 15A for irrigation. Now I'm better defining my needs as, in addition to the current lights and outlets, adding workbench florescent lights and a circuit for power tools. Should I run the power tools on the irrigation circuit (which also runs my tankless water heater)? Wow, it just keeps getting worse...I could choke the contractor that built this house. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be in this house forever, so I might just have to do with what I have. I'm tempted to run the irrigation and water heater to the garage circuit and dedicate the irrigation circuit to power tools...I've already blown a fuse when running my table saw and shop vac together.

 

[mrgm]

just make sure you panel doesn't get to hot. just check up on it every once in a while when your working.