Wiring My Chicken Cube

[Climber]

Hi,
Welcome to my post.
I got Chicken cube with foot print 24x40 with 30 Amp service coming from my hose, about 30-35 ft. It was build in 1920.

For last few years trying to make out of it my small shop. I am planing to bring separate service from street. In my plans I can run 200A welder, 1" plasma, 17-20 CFM compressor + some more small stuff.
Power company will charge every think for installation. Most of hard work on me.

So my question to you guys should I bring 3 phase on single phase.
Is it worth it to bother with 3-phase or just not to waist time and money and get 1ph 220V?
Is it even feasible for one-man-show get 3-phase?

FYI: Street has 3 phase some think like 22KV

 

[nehog]

Feasible? Usually not--most utility companies have minimum charges for three-phase circuits, and some strange rate schedules.

I ended up with a three phase generator which will do me if I ever need it. (No three phase in my neck of the woods anyway...)

 

[Stuart in MN]

It all depends on your local electric utility's regulations. Many utilities will only allow one service to a residential property, and many of them won't install three phase service, but that's not a universal rule. Call them up and find out. In any case, if they are willing to run a separate three phase service to this building, it will most likely be a lot more expensive to install as well as more expensive on your monthly bill.

What's a chicken cube?

 

[Climber]

Feasible?

- sure,

...I ended up with a three phase generator ...

- Brilliant!!!

... and many of them won't install three phase service, but that's not a universal rule. Call them up and find out. In any case, if they are willing to run a separate three phase service to this building, it will most likely be a lot more expensive to install as well as more expensive on your monthly bill...

- They ( Utility company) willing to install, BUT ALL expenses will be charged to me, no meter 3 or 1 phase, because it will be second service to the same address.

...What's a chicken cube?

Structure for chickens. Usually with low roof (to save on heat, 4-5 ft walls, 7 ft on ridge), some utility storage (for grain in winter) and many cross bars and shelving for chickens to be there.

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

To get three phase, you need to look at your closest utility pole and look for three "hots" on the pole. Usually you will find 2, not three. Typically what Ive learned, if you don't have 3 hots on the pole, you don't have 3 phase power in your area. If that is the case, (which it usually is) unless you back up to heavy commercial or industrial, there is no 3 phase to access. Bringing it you your place would probably run more than what you paid for the property (exaggeration to make a point, but probably not far off).

I know of 2 farmers that run large Cat Diesels generators to dry corn because they cant get or it (3 phase) or its to expensive to run 3 phase. These guys spend 10s of thousands $ a month on diesel fuel...

I had a house that backed up to an industrial park, and was quoted a ball park $15k to drop from a pole in my back yard, about 30' to my garage. I think that was there way of saying they did not want to do it. Everyone I know that has 3 phase at "home" has a converter.

 

[Climber]

To get three phase, you need to look at your closest utility pole and look for three "hots" on the pole. Usually you will find 2, not three. Typically what Ive learned, if you don't have 3 hots on the pole, you don't have 3 phase power in your area. If that is the case, (which it usually is) unless you back up to heavy commercial or industrial, there is no 3 phase to access. ...

We have 3-ph on our street. From pole to "Cube" is about 45-50 ft.

 

[Climber]

...
I know of 2 farmers that run large Cat Diesels generators to dry corn because they cant get or it (3 phase) or its to expensive to run 3 phase. These guys spend 10s of thousands $ a month on diesel fuel...

Those farmers need to seek help from local and State government. Government can make utility company run extra mile to provide services for remote areas. It's in a contract between any utility company and State.
Basicaly when any utility company sign up to provide services for people the rule is: you (utility comp) give services to all or no one.

Or Farmers can ask for grand from federals.

 

[larry_g]

What's a chicken cube?

I believe that a lot of the country would call that a chicken coop or chicken house.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[daveroy]

Chicken Coop as work shop!
If this was an active chicken coop... be careful, you can get a lot of health problems from the bacteria and sediment left behind by the bird droppings...

I don't remember all the details, but do some research... If the floor isn't concrete, you may have to have x number of inches of soil removed. If it is concrete you should pressure wash it with some industrial strength stuff (cant remember exactly what, again do some research). Any and all Horizontal surfaces the chickens used for roosting/sitting/ climbing etc... should be removed and discarded if they aren't 'sealed' surfaces.

 

[Mattlt]

To get three phase, you need to look at your closest utility pole and look for three "hots" on the pole. Usually you will find 2, not three. Typically what Ive learned, if you don't have 3 hots on the pole, you don't have 3 phase power in your area. If that is the case, (which it usually is) unless you back up to heavy commercial or industrial, there is no 3 phase to access. Bringing it you your place would probably run more than what you paid for the property (exaggeration to make a point, but probably not far off).

.

This is good advice. I'll add that some places are fed by only 1 hot wire. You'll see a pole with 2 wires - one hot, one "neutral." No 3-phase on that setup. This is what feeds my place.

I've got a 3-phase line 1/2 mile from my house. Never looked into running it over here. I'd have to believe it would be big $$$.

 

[Climber]

I am not asking advice how to identified if it's possible to bring 3-ph.
We have 3-ph access. I already have spoke with power company. Got request number and puled permit to through town as well. It is possible to put 3 or 1 phase. Now the question: IS IT WORTH?

As for chickens:
no chickens were for 50-70 years. No bacteria. I did test it 10 years ago when I bought this property. This is farm house build originally in 1820. Yes 18 not 19. So it was my and real estate agent concerns. Last time used for farming in 1930-ish. No bacteria.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I believe that a lot of the country would call that a chicken coop or chicken house.

Yeah, they're chicken coops here. I suppose it's a regional thing.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I've got a 3-phase line 1/2 mile from my house. Never looked into running it over here. I'd have to believe it would be big $$$.

It's not just a matter of the power company simply adding another wire to the pole, either. In many cases they'll have to rebuild the whole line with new poles; this requires a bunch of design time, they may have to cut trees, there may be environmental impact issues, and on and on.

I had a construction project once where we had to extend three phase power into a residential area for a new municipal wellhouse; it was only about a half mile, but if I remember correctly it cost in the range of $60,000 - $80,000.

 

[larry_g]

It's not just a matter of the power company simply adding another wire to the pole, either. In many cases they'll have to rebuild the whole line with new poles; this requires a bunch of design time, they may have to cut trees, there may be environmental impact issues, and on and on.

I had a construction project once where we had to extend three phase power into a residential area for a new municipal wellhouse; it was only about a half mile, but if I remember correctly it cost in the range of $60,000 - $80,000.

In the late '60s we had power brought in a couple of miles to run irrigation pumps. If memory serves me right we only had to commit to a minimum of something like a $1000 per month for the season. Its is still in use to this day and the power line now serves a dairy and other irrigation customers.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Gigfy]

"Now the question: IS IT WORTH?"

Can't imagine it'd would be worth it. You're welder doesn't draw 200 amps, it puts out that much. I doubt your welder and plasma are even set up for 3 phase.

Single phase should work just fine. Why would you think you need 3 phase?

 

[Mattlt]

Where you'll come out ahead with 3-phase is if you are going to buy some industrial equipment - lathe, mill, etc. Many times the 3-phase stuff goes really cheap at auctions because it can't be used everywhere like single-phase equipment can. Unless you're running you're equipment many many hours each day, I can't imagine there would be much in energy savings.

The first thing to consider would be a phase converter. They are cheap enough to find.

 

[Climber]

"Now the question: IS IT WORTH?"

... You're welder doesn't draw 200 amps, it puts out that much. I doubt your welder and plasma are even set up for 3 phase ...

On 220V 1-ph they draw:
Welder maximum draw 50Amp,
plasma is 40A max. Also plasma will need compressor supply 7 CFM @ 120 PSI. Through another 30 Amp (on-off) for compressor.

They both multy voltage, basically plug to what ever you have with out rewiring.

... Single phase should work just fine. Why would you think you need 3 phase?

Yes, single phase will work, absolutely, however if I wire 3-ph, do I save on wiring? do I save on electricity? Is it enough to pay upfront for installation?

... is if you are going to buy some industrial equipment - lathe, mill, etc ...

Hmm??? May be ... I like etc tools

... Many times the 3-phase stuff goes really cheap at auctions because it can't be used everywhere like single-phase equipment can. ...

Exactly!!! Now you are talking. I have chance to get 208V-480V 3-ph 10Hp compressor for VERY short money(under $500). It will produce 45-50CFM. And it will draw 25-28 Amp, same as 5 Hp 220V 1-ph. On auctions much stuff 3-ph goes very chip.

... Unless you're running you're equipment many many hours each day, I can't imagine there would be much in energy savings. ...

I am not and hope will not run my shop for many hours. I'd like to say up to 20 hours a week MAX.

My fabricator (same street) run his shop (40-60 hours per week) from personal property. House and shop different circuits. Obviously shop is 3-ph 480V, house 1-ph 220V.
He told me his bill for shop is half of house electrical bill.

... The first thing to consider would be a phase converter. They are cheap enough to find.

Well... if I am not getting 3-ph - I will not buy toys for it.

 

[rwhite692]

Chicken Cube = Much harder to solve than a Rubik's Cube

 

[Climber]

Chicken Cube = Much harder to solve than a Rubik's Cube

 

[Climber]

I see some one rated this thread. Thank you. Other guys welcome to do the same. Your feedback appreciated.
Thanks again.

 

[klhitman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigfy View Post
... Single phase should work just fine. Why would you think you need 3 phase?

Yes, single phase will work, absolutely, however if I wire 3-ph, do I save on wiring? do I save on electricity? Is it enough to pay upfront for installation?

you will need more wire as 3ph will be 3 hots an a ground. as single phase is 2 hots and a ground.

but the higher the volts the lower the amps


the dumb *** at work bought a break press that was 240v 3ph, our shop is 480v 3ph. now me and the guy i work with being a dumb electrician told them to rewire the transformers and the motor to work with the 480v. but the electricians talked them into a $2500 step down transformer they didn't need.

 

[Gigfy]

"Yes, single phase will work, absolutely, however if I wire 3-ph, do I save on wiring? do I save on electricity? Is it enough to pay upfront for installation?"

This is a common misconception. That is, by going to three phase you somehow save electricity cost. The idea is since the current is carrying less amps there is less expense. I've had people express the same theory with regard to 240v verses 120v (namely, 240 is cheaper because of less amp draw). In reality, you can't cheat the system. Electricity is billed /KWH. It takes the same KWH to turn a motor whether it's 240/208/120. Same with a welder.

There is a caveat. Because there is more amp draw on a lower volt system, the wire can produce more heat, and thereby consume a little more power. However, generally this is way over-played. If the wire is sized right, the effect is negligible.

You are correct, cable size can be slightly smaller with 3 phase, but with the small amp load you mentioned, they'll be no significant savings in cable size.

Most people use three phase because big tools are made that way. As mentioned wire size inside the tool can be smaller w/ 3 phase. If the amp draw of the tool is big enough, the power company won't let you put it on single phase. It can dim the lights of surrounding customers when the tool starts up.

 

[nehog]

Just to add some numbers (and I have no idea what running 3phase into your site would cost)...

1. Cost of the electricity is based on power, not phases or volts, or amps, but KW hours. So no difference there.

2. My generator is a military MEP-004a unit, 4 cylinder diesel, on a big trailer (weight is about 7K lb). I have about $2300 invested in it to date (rebuilt the engine, new batteries, and a few other things). Operating cost is about 1 - 2 gallons of diesel per hour, depending on load.

3. My generator also serves as my backup power source (actually that is its main, intended use).

So though operating cost would be high if run for many hours every day, were you to need 3 phase only a few hours a week, a generator makes a lot of sense. If you are talking eight hours a day, five (or six) days a week, then I'd suggest a quote from the local power company to install three phase.

Do understand their rate structure--they often charge on peak usage... that is your KW hour cost is based on the peak demand in the billing period, you have one peak of an hour in that time, and your costs can go up substantially. I have one friend who found that out the hard way when an hours worth of high demand to test a piece of equipment resulted in about a double cost for his whole month's power! (ouch...)

 

[klhitman]

1. Cost of the electricity is based on power, not phases or volts, or amps, but KW hours. So no difference there.

true but on 3 phase you can run a larger welder,plasma or compressor depending on the amp draw.

I have one friend who found that out the hard way when an hours worth of high demand to test a piece of equipment resulted in about a double cost for his whole month's power! (ouch...)

that's the main reason a lot of steel mills run at night when there's not a peak charge.

 

[Climber]

...

the dumb *** at work bought a break press that was 240v 3ph, our shop is 480v 3ph. now me and the guy i work with being a dumb electrician told them to rewire the transformers and the motor to work with the 480v. but the electricians talked them into a $2500 step down transformer they didn't need.

As I recall all 3-ph motors I've seen were capable to run from 208v to 480v. Some rewiring is required. On another hand why not to change only motor to 480?

 

[Climber]

... I've had people express the same theory with regard to 240v verses 120v (namely, 240 is cheaper because of less amp draw). In reality, you can't cheat the system. Electricity is billed /KWH. It takes the same KWH to turn a motor whether it's 240/208/120. ...

for example,
drill takes 15A on 120V = 7.5 Amp on 240V = 1.8 KW
so WHAT am I missing?

compressor
5Hp on 240V 1-ph draw 25-30 Amp
5HP on 230V 3-ph draw 13-15 Amp

Some think wrong in my logic...

... Most people use three phase because big tools are made that way. As mentioned wire size inside the tool can be smaller w/ 3 phase. If the amp draw of the tool is big enough, the power company won't let you put it on single phase. It can dim the lights of surrounding customers when the tool starts up.

Lights out dear neighbors Time to make babies ...

... you will need more wire as 3ph will be 3 hots an a ground. as single phase is 2 hots and a ground. ...

Yep, but 10-3 wire cost less when 6-2 wire.

... the dumb *** at work bought a break press that was 240v 3ph, our shop is 480v 3ph. now me and the guy i work with being a dumb electrician told them to rewire the transformers and the motor to work with the 480v. but the electricians talked them into a $2500 step down transformer they didn't need.

$2500 ... is it not chipper to rewire or change motor?

 

[klhitman]

As I recall all 3-ph motors I've seen were capable to run from 208v to 480v. Some rewiring is required. On another hand why not to change only motor to 480?

me and the guy i work with told them that the motor and taps on the control transformer can be changed for 240v to 480v. but they didn't listen or didn't care what we said. so company that was wiring our new building told them they need a step down and so the big wigs bought it.

 

[klhitman]

i don't know how much a phase converter is but you can get a VFD. they will take single phase in and put out 3ph. but if you have a 1hp motor you have to step up to 2hp VFD.just have to step the vfd up one size bigger then the motor

 

[D.J.]

Please be certain of your facts on the bacteria. Histoplasmia liked to have killed me about four years ago. This was when I had a mesterious fever that would appear once daily and elevate to over 1OO degrees. It would stay there for a time and would only break after a couple ibeprofin and by then I would have sweat profusely enough to almost be able to wring it out of my clothing and the sheets on my bed. I may be getting to detailed here but I lost 4O pounds and looked like a walking corpse. So plese don't just blow this off as BS. You don't want anyone you know to go through this even your worst enemy, believe me I know. RANT OVER!

 

[Climber]

... you can get a VFD. they will take single phase in and put out 3ph....

I love to play with VFD (Variable Frequency Drive). I'd like to put on drill and compressor.
For the drill - to control max and minimum speed with out playing with belts.
For compressor - slow down from 900RPM down to 650-700 when I don't need too much CFM. Smooooove start as well.

Please be certain of your facts on the bacteria. ...

Nothing where. Thanks for details, sounds like my x-wife symptoms.

 

[klhitman]

I love to play with VFD (Variable Frequency Drive). I'd like to put on drill and compressor.
For the drill - to control max and minimum speed with out playing with belts.
For compressor - slow down from 900RPM down to 650-700 when I don't need too much CFM. Smooooove start as well.

I love the control you have witha vfd. Like you said the control of the speed. You can set them to run at certain times of the day. But what is nice is they will give u a fault or alarm before something goes BOOM

 

[dlenkewich]

I need to repeat what was said and ignored:

There are serious health risks trying to make an inhabitable space out of a chicken coop.

Frankly, it should be used as a chicken coop or nothing else. Chicken poo is nothing to mess around with.

 

[Climber]

...
There are serious health risks trying to make an inhabitable space out of a chicken coop.

Frankly, it should be used as a chicken coop or nothing else. Chicken poo is nothing to mess around with.

Chickens were vacated 50-70 years ago. Guy before me used this place for carpentry shop for 20 years, He also installed slab. I am were for 11 years. Is clean. Thanks for your concern.

 

[darkk]

Why not update the house service to 200 amp. Then when that's all done, run a cable underground to the Chicken coop by yourself. Save the expense of a second electrical meter, they are not free. I don't see any reason a residential workshop would ever need 3 ph electrical service.

 

[Climber]

Why not update the house service to 200 amp. ...

If I put 200Amp service to my house it will be downgrade not upgrade. I have 400 Amp.

... Then when that's all done, run a cable underground to the Chicken coop by yourself....

From house to coop is about 100 ft of cable, may be more, since septic system on the way. Right now I do have 40 Amp running. From pole to coop is 50 ft. of wire.

...see any reason a residential workshop would ever need 3 ph electrical service.

The keyword is RESIDENTIAL. Well more appropriate term would be "Home Base Business". I have small business. On cold morning 8 diesel engines to warm up for 3-4 hours ... it adds up. Very hard to track record for all electricity usage. Also office will be were, some-were, attached or detached, or second floor ... I did not make a decision yet.


Any way,
Is any one can help me with question: How power company calculate kWH for 1-ph vs. 3-ph.