Wiring neutral and ground together on bus bar?

[bepjrfan]

Hey guys,

Just finishing up with my electrical in the garage(tons of fun in 30 degree weather) and have been starting to wire into my subpanel(100A) and I noticed that they ran the neutrals and grounds together when they wired the first circuits(set up an outlet and light for me, rest is my own work) on the bus bar. I've been reading around on this and some say its ok, some not. I followed suit on my circuits but am wondering if that is incorrect? there isn't any other options for bus bar wiring and grounding in the panel as all 3 bus bars are tied together, so I assume it must be correct?

 

[p_mori7]

I think...if the subpanel ground is not tied into the house ground...it is correct to tie the neutral & ground together in the subpanel, then out to the ground rod for the subpanel....if the subpanel is tied to house main panel ground...then keep them separate...I have a diagram around here somewhere of how I installed my 100A subpanel...I will try and find it.

Bear in mind I am in Canada, and my rules & regs may differ from yours.

 

[pattenp]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the feed needs to be 4 wires and the neutrals are isolated from the ground. A ground bar kit needs to be added. Also the wire you used is not allowed if run inside of the structure because it appears to be URD, two black phase conductors and a yellow striped neutral. Is this a detached garage with the feeder being run from a house panel? Also, what size is the feeder wire?

 

[Bolson32]

I have the same question, the small sub panel I bought only had one bar. I ran 4 wires back to the house, neutral and ground included. I think what they mean when they say they shouldn't be bound is that they shouldn't be bound to the box. I.e. that big green screw that binds the neutral and ground bars to the box. I looked at like 5 different smaller sub panels at Menards and all of them only had one bar.

 

[pattenp]

Most panels come setup to be used as primary panels where the neutrals and grounds can use the same bar. When used as a subpanel a ground bar kit is needed and the neutrals are isolated from the case.

 

[rnscustom]

Add a ground bar , sub panels separate ground and neutral as far as I know or were taught

 

[bepjrfan]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the feed needs to be 4 wires and the neutrals are isolated from the ground. A ground bar kit needs to be added. Also the wire you used is not allowed if run inside of the structure because it appears to be URD, two black phase conductors and a yellow striped neutral. Is this a detached garage with the feeder being run from a house panel? Also, what size is the feeder wire?

Are you sure on that? Inspector signed off on the box installation in the garage... Hired that out through a reputable electrical company in town. They wired the box,one 15amp circuit to a light and one 20 amp circuit to an outlet. I'm seeing it done both ways, with a separate ground bus bar and with them all running through the same busbar. The bus bars are linked at the top of the panel and grounded through that to the garage groundrod. It is a detached garage with the feeder being ran from the house. I had 100 amp service at the house, they swapped that for 200 amp service, and ran 100 amps to the garage. I believe it was fed from the meter to the garage, not from the panel.

 

[pattenp]

If your meter base has dual lugs that this feeder is connected to then you are okay. But if the feeder is coming off of a disconnect/breaker at the meter then it's not okay. The URD is okay as long as it doesn't enter the structure, but some inspectors will allow it when it enters directly into the panel from outside.

 

[bepjrfan]

If your meter base has dual lugs that this feeder is connected to then you are okay. But if the feeder is coming off of a disconnect/breaker at the meter then it's not okay. The URD is okay as long as it doesn't enter the structure, but some inspectors will allow it when it enters directly into the panel from outside.

Called a buddy who is an inspector just to be sure and you are correct. Being my meter has the dual lugs, I am ok to run the neutral and ground off the same bus bars. Same with the URD, it runs from outside directly to the box and is allowed. Thanks for the help. In most people's cases, they need to be separated by the sounds of it.

 

[pattenp]

Called a buddy who is an inspector just to be sure and you are correct. Being my meter has the dual lugs, I am ok to run the neutral and ground off the same bus bars. Same with the URD, it runs from outside directly to the box and is allowed. Thanks for the help. In most people's cases, they need to be separated by the sounds of it.

Your install is not the norm so that's why I started out the way I did.

 

[TractorJeff]

What is "URD" wire and why can't it run inside of the building?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Are you sure on that? Inspector signed off on the box installation in the garage... Hired that out through a reputable electrical company in town. They wired the box,one 15amp circuit to a light and one 20 amp circuit to an outlet. I'm seeing it done both ways, with a separate ground bus bar and with them all running through the same busbar. The bus bars are linked at the top of the panel and grounded through that to the garage groundrod. It is a detached garage with the feeder being ran from the house. I had 100 amp service at the house, they swapped that for 200 amp service, and ran 100 amps to the garage. I believe it was fed from the meter to the garage, not from the panel.

As said above, if coming off disconnect after meter, then 4-wire is required.

Also, 3-wire with bonded neutral off a disconnect was allowed up until 2008 code cycle only for DETACHED structures.

When was this wired?

4-wire feeder for Subpanels in attached structures has ALWAYS been required.

And just because the inspector passed it, doesnt mean it was done correctly.

Ive seen lots of faulty work that was passed and had to be redone. Inspectors miss stuff all the time.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What is "URD" wire and why can't it run inside of the building?

URD that is not dual or triple rated, is not allowed inside because the insulation is not fire resistant.

Check the jacket to see if there are other ratings such as RHH or RHW. If there are those ratings then its permitted to be indoors.

 

[Bolson32]

Most panels come setup to be used as primary panels where the neutrals and grounds can use the same bar. When used as a subpanel a ground bar kit is needed and the neutrals are isolated from the case.

I hung one of these...

https://www.menards.com/main/electr...02-c-6438.htm?tid=-4926537801554634711&ipos=4

Menards doesn't seem to sell a ground bar for the Homeline series? Will a different ground bar work? Do I need a new panel?

 

[Bolson32]

Also, what's the logic behind this? They just go back to the main panel where grounded and neutral are bonded. It clearly works this way, is it a big hazard?

 

[pattenp]

I hung one of these...

https://www.menards.com/main/electr...02-c-6438.htm?tid=-4926537801554634711&ipos=4

Menards doesn't seem to sell a ground bar for the Homeline series? Will a different ground bar work? Do I need a new panel?

I was mainly referring to main breaker panels. I'm not sure what's in that 6 space main lug panel. Any generic Square-D ground bar kit works and Menards does sell those.
https://www.menards.com/main/electr...90-c-14120.htm?tid=1718980199515701281&ipos=6


*

 

[pattenp]

Also, what's the logic behind this? They just go back to the main panel where grounded and neutral are bonded. It clearly works this way, is it a big hazard?

This has come up before....
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82035

 

[bepjrfan]

Your install is not the norm so that's why I started out the way I did.

I completely understand. Better to assume the norm than assume otherwise, as the way it was done in my panel is wrong in most cases.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Bolson32]

I was mainly referring to main breaker panels. I'm not sure what's in that 6 space main lug panel. Any generic Square-D ground bar kit works and Menards does sell those.
https://www.menards.com/main/electr...90-c-14120.htm?tid=1718980199515701281&ipos=6


*

Do those just screw right to the panel somewhere then? I don't see a plastic spot that they would sit in like the neutral bar.

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[pattenp]

Do those just screw right to the panel somewhere then? I don't see a plastic spot that they would sit in like the neutral bar.

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The add-on ground bar screws directly to the box, no plastic stand-off is used. The plastic stand-offs are to provide isolation from the box when the bonding strap is removed from the existing bar.

 

[OneOfEm]

I hung one of these...


Menards doesn't seem to sell a ground bar for the Homeline series? Will a different ground bar work? Do I need a new panel?

From what I've seen (I'm not a sparky), brand-specific ground bars differ in hole locations - they might not line up with the pre-threaded holes in the panel.

I wanted a pair of bigger ground bars than were available locally for my panel, so I ordered a pair from eBay that match my panel.

 

[Bolson32]

Looks like any of the PK series from Schneider electric should fit the Homeline series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=BHDXuQhCQiY

https://www.menards.com/main/electr...90-c-14120.htm?tid=2055650237688806128&ipos=6

Will get one and report back!

 

[arkieguide]

Just remember neutral and ground, separate until main panel, then tied together. I always for 220 volts run 4 wires 2 hots a neutral and a ground. If you are running 3 conductor run a separate grd. wire. When I run 120 volts its 3 wires, hot, neutral, & ground. Why gamble.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

This has come up before....
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82035

That was very informative, too bad the drawings vaporized.

 

[lakelandcat]

The way you have it set up will work ok, the only thing is it limits the amount of circuits you can add. Add a ground bar move your bare copper to it and it will allow you to add more circuits. If your sub panel is coming from your main panel box the main box should already be grounded. If you are coming in before the main box you need to add a ground bar and run a 4ga bare wire from the bar to a couple of ground rods (6' from each other) and bond your neutral to your ground bar. I used the same 4ga to bond from my neutral to the ground bar but you can also use a ground strap. Because I was going from my meter to my panel box I had to use 4ga THHN because my run was 125'. Check with your local inspector for code so you can stay safe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Also, what's the logic behind this? They just go back to the main panel where grounded and neutral are bonded. It clearly works this way, is it a big hazard?

The short answer is you dont want neutral currents on unintended pathways that could pose a shock hazard/potential.

If the neutral is bonded in a sub and develops a bad/high resistant connection, the neutral current could take another pathway that is bonded to the neutral bar. This can include ground rods, bonded water lines, metal electrical conduit, bonded communication cables, etc.

When the neutral bar is isolated, the neutral current can only return on the neutral wire.

 

[Bolson32]

The short answer is you dont want neutral currents on unintended pathways that could pose a shock hazard/potential.

If the neutral is bonded in a sub and develops a bad/high resistant connection, the neutral current could take another pathway that is bonded to the neutral bar. This can include ground rods, bonded water lines, metal electrical conduit, bonded communication cables, etc.

When the neutral bar is isolated, the neutral current can only return on the neutral wire.

Could this not theoretically happen at the main as well?

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[mike93lx]

Just remember neutral and ground, separate until main panel, then tied together. I always for 220 volts run 4 wires 2 hots a neutral and a ground. If you are running 3 conductor run a separate grd. wire. When I run 120 volts its 3 wires, hot, neutral, & ground. Why gamble.

Not sure how 3 wire 240v cicuits are a gamble. If the device doesn't require a neutral, it doesn't need to be run. Simple as that.

Adding a 4th wire may offer future proofing but is not a gamble.

 

[Bolson32]

Adding a 4th wire may offer future proofing but is not a gamble.

Yea I thought that was off as well. I'm not running a 4th wire to my heater. It doesn't need it and it's a 20ft straight run of conduit. I can pull another wire if it's ever needed. Like, if it's not needed, what do you do with it? Just let it dangle? Having unneeded conductors in a raceway is arguably more dangerous than not having them.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Could this not theoretically happen at the main as well?

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No because theres no direct low impedance pathway to the transformer other than the neutral on the service.

As long as neutral and ground arent bonded in a junction box, outlet or appliance some where connected to the main, no neutral current will flow on the wrong pathway.

 

[bepjrfan]

Just remember neutral and ground, separate until main panel, then tied together. I always for 220 volts run 4 wires 2 hots a neutral and a ground. If you are running 3 conductor run a separate grd. wire. When I run 120 volts its 3 wires, hot, neutral, & ground. Why gamble.

Why would you run 4 wires on a 220 circuit? The neutral doesn't get used for anything unless you have a stove or some appliance that requires 110 as well... Seems like a waste of money to run the 4th conductor that won't be used...

 

[Toothaker]

You do realize the rules for a sub panel are written by the NEC (for US-based installations) and not the GJ members who respond, right?

Four wires. Not me saying that and not anybody else here - the NEC says four wires.

Don't bond neutral and ground in the sub panel. Again NEC.

 

[Bolson32]

You do realize the rules for a sub panel are written by the NEC (for US-based installations) and not the GJ members who respond, right?

Four wires. Not me saying that and not anybody else here - the NEC says four wires.

Don't bond neutral and ground in the sub panel. Again NEC.

I think some wires got crossed here, pun intended. I think Arkie may have been talking about wiring sub panels but his post almost made it sound like he was talking about 240v circuits. I.e. a 240v Heater that doesn't require a separate neutral. Why wire if it's not needed. If he was talking about wiring sub panels, yes, 4 wires. If he's talking about running 4 wires for all 240v circuits...then....well that might be silly. I think that's what I, and the other two guys thought.

 

[TractorJeff]

I think it was a discussion based on a 120v 2 wire with no ground wire ran out to the garage?
From there it snowballed to become a discussion on ground verses neutral in a panel.
Which digressed into an outlet discussion which turned to a heater discussion.
YEP, SNOWBALLED!

 

[Toothaker]

Hmmm. I think I got whiplash from the topic change. I was thinking the image in the OP's first post was still the topic. Sorry about that...

Yup - three wires to a 220* outlet, unless said outlet is driving a device that also needs 110**, such as a stove or laundry dryer.

* or 230 VAC

** or 115, 117, 120 or 125VAC. Or 127VAC like in my house.

I'll go crawl back under my rock now.