Wiring pole barn

[AA7483]

Hey guys. I'm getting ready to have my 24 x 40 pole barn built in a few months. I'm going to be pulling a permit and doing the wiring myself. I'm an hvac/commercial refrigeration contractor by trade so I have plenty of experience with high voltage wiring. I want to make sure everything is done to code so I don't have any issues with the construction office. Just want to know what I should be mindful of. My main panel in the house is 150a. What is the maximum subpanel amperage I can put in the pole barn? Sub panel needs the ground and neutral bar isolated. I know that. I need to drive 2 ground rods in the ground in addition to the ground from the panel correct? I know romex isn't allowed in an area that can be damaged So I'll either go with mc or put the romex in emt. I need to have the first receptacle on the line gfci protected by either installing a receptacle or just putting as gfci breaker on the entire circuit. I need to have a light outside of the man door. Is there a required height for the outlets? Do I need a separate circuit for the garage door opener? For the time being I just want outlets around the building and probably 3 rows of light fixtures. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

.........My main panel in the house is 150a. What is the maximum subpanel amperage I can put in the pole barn?

There is no code limit other than obviously the max size of your service.

But a better way to look at it is what your loads will be.

Welders, AC, electric heat, plasma cutter, compressor, etc etc, etc

Is this gonna be a one man shop?

The answers to those questions will dictate the size of feeder that will be needed.

Sub panel needs the ground and neutral bar isolated. I know that. I need to drive 2 ground rods in the ground in addition to the ground from the panel correct?

Correct

I know romex isn't allowed in an area that can be damaged So I'll either go with mc or put the romex in emt.

I would not put Romex in EMT. While it isnt prohibited by code, its a PITA and individual conductors will make your life a lot easier plus you could add circuits later on by adding conductors...

I need to have the first receptacle on the line gfci protected by either installing a receptacle or just putting as gfci breaker on the entire circuit. I need to have a light outside of the man door. Is there a required height for the outlets? Do I need a separate circuit for the garage door opener? For the time being I just want outlets around the building and probably 3 rows of light fixtures. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Will you have sheets of 48" material leaning against the walls?? If so, then I would set outlets several inches higher than that.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

There is no code limit other than obviously the max size of your service.

But a better way to look at it is what your loads will be.

Welders, AC, electric heat, plasma cutter, compressor, etc etc, etc

Is this gonna be a one man shop?

The answers to those questions will dictate the size of feeder that will be needed.



Correct



I would not put Romex in EMT. While it isnt prohibited by code, its a PITA and individual conductors will make your life a lot easier plus you could add circuits later on by adding conductors...



Will you have sheets of 48" material leaning against the walls?? If so, then I would set outlets several inches higher than that.

 

[sz0k30]

Put all the outlets on 20A breakers with 12GA wire and use 2 outlets per box.

 

[AA7483]

Do I need to run a dedicated ground to the outlets or can I pass code with a mechanical ground through the emt?

 

[teamextreme]

It is perfectly acceptable and legal to use the conduit to provide the equipment ground. Done all the time. You'll get boatloads of people here advising you to run a dedicated ground wire because it's much better, but I think it's unnecessary overkill IMO. Pretty much every stick of EMT run in every commercial location in the country (how many feet is that?!) is run without a ground wire. The only argument in favor of a dedicated wire is that if the conduit breaks or fittings come loose, then you don't loose the ground. Well, if you're installing it properly and tightening fittings properly, that won't be an issue...

 

[AA7483]

My building is up and Im preparing to drop my paperwork off to the town tomorrow. Just trying to get a plan laid out for them. Im planning to run # 1 AL xhhw wire in 1 1/4 conduit with at least 18" of cover. Also plan on running a 3/4" conduit for a chase. The run will be 125' and Ill have an 80 amp breaker on either end. I plan on driving 2 ground rods on the interior side of the building 6' apart. #8 bare solid copper to the panel. Separate ground and neutral bars in the panel. All branch circuits in emt with the emt serving as ground. 1 gfci outlet per receptacle circuit. 1 light at the man door exterior. How much or little should I put on the permit? Should I plan to have all interior and exterior lighting in and all receptacles wired under the permit? Or should I wait until I pass and add? Does it matter?

 

[dmcintosh]

I would think the ‘correct’ answer to that would be that it should all be on the permit and inspected. I wasn’t sure exactly where stuff was going to live in my building so I just did the minimum to pass my inspection, and gradually added circuits as equipment plans firmed up.

 

[James-W]

Can I ask how much electrical power you use in your house? I am not being nosey, it's just that you said you had a 150 amp service in the house. If you are using the bulk of that power to run the house, will the remaining be enough to power the shop?

 

[AA7483]

The house is just your basic house usage. I think 80 to the shop is way overkill. Don't think Ill ever need it. May I should just run wire for the 80 but put 60 amp breakers in? This way its there if I ever need it. Ill never have more than 1 or 2 people working at the same time in the shop.

 

[AA7483]

Also, while I have you guys and instead of starting a new thread. I need some advice on lighting. I want the space to be bright but I'm not super **** and just want a simple design. The building is 24 x 40 x 10. I have a 9 x 12 garage door center on the right gable end (24' wall) I plan to frame a 12 x 10 office in one corner so the lighting in there will be separate. Just need a simple layout, number and type of fixtures. Walls and ceiling will be white metal liner panels.

 

[nadogail]

You could encase the NM (romex) in a surface mounted wooden chase, for examples find an old reference book detailing Knob and Tube wiring methods. Wire runs in ceramic cleats were protected this way prior to the introduction of Romex.

I read about this as a boy in boks from the library during the 1940's.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

I would run 2"conduit for your #1 Al wires. It would make for a whole lot easier pull at 125'. If your building is detached you need 2 8' ground rods at least 6' apart. But you are saying you're gonna put them on the interior of the building....are you going to leave the floor dirt or gravel? If you haven't done it yet, and are planning to pour concrete a UFER is the easiest way to go. Not sure of the soil conditions where you are but I drove mine in about 5 feet pretty easy then put a hammer bit in a air hammer and drove them the rest of the way in. Took about a minute each rod.

 

[AA7483]

I am going to have concrete. No rebar. Using fibermesh. I was going to put the rods inside since the immediate area outside the panel will have concrete and is the front of the building. Figured it would look cleaner to have it inside next to the wall.

 

[ard]

No rebar. Using fibermesh.

Hmmm.

Spend the $ on rebar... it isnt much.

 

[AA7483]

Ill have to talk to my contractor. Perhaps I misunderstood.

 

[tapout187]

I’m not trying to hijack this thread but I’m in pretty much the exact same situation as op where I can’t really put the ground rods outside building from where my panel is. Op mentioned about putting them inside the building, is it possible to put them actually inside the pole barn walls or completely buried under the concrete where they wouldn’t really ever be seen? Or if you go with a UFER are the ground rods no longer necessary at all? Thanks and sorry just trying to learn more about this exact topic

 

[AA7483]

I plan to drive mine just inside the walls and when the walls get closed they will be hidden but still sticking outside of the concrete. I just asked my inspector. I'll let you know what he says.

 

[tapout187]

Awesome, thank you!

 

[ard]

I can’t really put the ground rods outside building from where my panel is.

This makes no sense. You may not WANT to ....or you may have some odd ideas about how to run wires.... but a ground wire can always leave a structure to get to a ground rod.

they will be hidden but still sticking outside of the concrete. I just asked my inspector. I'll let you know what he says.

Cannot be 'hidden'...you must at least provide an access plate to the ground connection.

What "your inspector says" is as pointless to someone else as what everyone else in this thread says.....there may be one code, but there are endless interpretations by local inspectors.

 

[tapout187]

Well ARD I appreciate you somewhat clearing up a couple items though the shade didn’t need to be casted but whatever. I’m obviously not an electrician either just trying to educate myself about how things can/should be done when myself or someone I hire goes to task. I respect the hell out of the guys in here there are a lot of really knowledgeable people here and I have learned and still am learning from them. I suppose I should have posted a few pictures of my situation but as I said before I’m not trying to hijack the thread it just seems like I have the same task at hand as the op. As far as “odd ideas about running wires” and “a ground wire can always leave a structure to get to a ground rod” I understand that too but this is my own garage that I’m going to love with for the rest of my life and I’d like to do things as nice or trick as possible and not just drill a hole and drive a couple ground rods any old place like someone I hire may do because they don’t have to live with it and it’s easier for them. But thanks for answering a couple things