Wiring potlights

[younghandyman]

I live in a two storey house with attic access. I am planning on wiring some recessed lights into the ceiling this weekend.

On the second floor, I plan on going into the attic to make sure I don't run into any obstructions above where I drill holes.

For the main floor, other than cutting out a hole and putting a camera scope in, is there any other way to check if there are water lines, air ducts, electrical wires in the way (and then having to repatch the holes, which I want to avoid as much as possible)?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[cybrdyke]

Use a wafer light instead of a pot light and none of that will matter.
CD

 

[850xpeps]

Yes with these wafer you can install on a truss. Just need enough room for clips to pass by. I installed some in last house a 3 landed on trusses. No issue. Putting a bunch in new house I love them


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[jeffmattero76]

I live in a two storey house with attic access. I am planning on wiring some recessed lights into the ceiling this weekend.

On the second floor, I plan on going into the attic to make sure I don't run into any obstructions above where I drill holes.

For the main floor, other than cutting out a hole and putting a camera scope in, is there any other way to check if there are water lines, air ducts, electrical wires in the way (and then having to repatch the holes, which I want to avoid as much as possible)?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

For air ducts, note which way the joists are running, and note where the supply registers are. Typically, ducts going to the second floor will go up a vertical wall on the first floor, and then, if the 1st and 2nd floor walls are not stacked (directly in line), the duct will make a 90 degree turn and run in the joist Bay until it is under the second floor wall, and then make another 90 into the 2nd floor wall. If you take your time and do a little measuring and observing, you should be able to figure out where the horizontal ducts are.

Electrical wires usually have enough slack that you can get them out of your way.

Pipes (especially supply pipes) are anyone's guess, but they usually take the shortest route.

Good luck!

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[Evan(CA)]

Layout your lights and start poking little holes big enough for a piece of wire. Bend the wire with two parallel 90s half the size of the can to each end and stick one in the hole and feel around.

 

[younghandyman]

Use a wafer light instead of a pot light and none of that will matter.
CD

Although this would make everything a lot easier, nobody in my family likes he look of these lights which is why we are going with the traditional looking potlights.

 

[younghandyman]

Layout your lights and start poking little holes big enough for a piece of wire. Bend the wire with two parallel 90s half the size of the can to each end and stick one in the hole and feel around.

I guess this is what I'll have to do and then patch up any holes where we ran into obstructions.

 

[younghandyman]

Does anyone know where to get fishing wires cheaper than home depot?


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[alfredeneuman]

These https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-T...h-Glow-in-the-Dark-Leaders-SRS56038/206826213 are less than $20 and I think you can't them for much less.

 

[Evan(CA)]

I guess this is what I'll have to do and then patch up any holes where we ran into obstructions.

1/8" hole just takes a tiny dab of mud and your down. At my personal home I didn't even both with spackle, just painted right over my one obstructed hole and the paint covered

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Does anyone know where to get fishing wires cheaper than home depot?


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I use the Harbor Freight kit. Eleven 3ft rods for under $10, plus some hooks and attachments. They’re thinner and more flexible than the Klein/Southwire rods which comes in handy at times.

And they’re so cheap if I break one or lose it in a wall, I don’t care.

 

[CJ7VFR]

I use the Harbor Freight kit. Eleven 3ft rods for under $10, plus some hooks and attachments. They’re thinner and more flexible than the Klein/Southwire rods which comes in handy at times.

And they’re so cheap if I break one or lose it in a wall, I don’t care.

I have the exact same HF kit!

What I like the most about the kit is that the 3 foot long "rods" have a male thread on one end and a female thread on the other. Besides being able to screw in the hooks and attachments to hold wire or cable or other things, it also gives you the option to screw the rods together to make any length rod you want up to 33 feet long.

But the best part is that because you can screw the rods into each other, you can use them in tighter places, and make the rod the length you need piece by piece instead of starting out with a long one that can't fit into a tighter working space, like a crawl space or knee walls.

Jim

 

[younghandyman]

Use a wafer light instead of a pot light and none of that will matter.
CD

I found some wafer style lights that have the look of traditional pot lights that we're going to go with.

I've seen these being installed with the clips which seems fairly easy.

How do you take these out of the ceiling with breaking the dry wall, it seems like the spring clips are putting a lot of pressure on the dry wall.


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[cybrdyke]

I found some wafer style lights that have the look of traditional pot lights that we're going to go with.

I've seen these being installed with the clips which seems fairly easy.

How do you take these out of the ceiling with breaking the dry wall, it seems like the spring clips are putting a lot of pressure on the dry wall.


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They're not that strong. They hold the lights in really well, but if you get your thumbnail under the trim ring, or a plastic knife or a fork, you can pull it down.

 

[younghandyman]

They're not that strong. They hold the lights in really well, but if you get your thumbnail under the trim ring, or a plastic knife or a fork, you can pull it down.

Thanks for responding. I'll give it a little more force.

Also, does anyone know how to remove a junction box for an older traditional light so I can put the wafer style light into its spot.

I've seen videos of it online where the box gets cut and pulled out in pieces, but it makes a mess of the drywall. Is there a clean way to do it? The existing holes in the ceiling where the junction box is is 4 inches and the lights I'm putting in need a 4 inch hole so I can't really afford to expand the hole.

Sorry for the rookie questions, first set of lights going on but many more to do in the future.


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[jeffmattero76]

You may want to look at one of the big box websites for "round Junction box" to see the different ways they are attached to the ceiling. Typically, there is a bracket of some type that attaches to a ceiling joist. If so, use a stud finder to find that joist, and then you could use a sawzall to slide between the side of the box and the joist, and cut the bracket or nails that are holding the box to the joist.

It may also be an "old work" type of box, where all you would have to do would be to loosen the 3 screws on the box that are holding wing like tabs to the back of the drywall.

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[rburke65]

Removing the box takes time hence the reason ‘rewire’ electricians charge by the hour. Take your time and minimize the damage to drywall. It took me an hour and a half to remove a exhaust fan and housing in my bath room in order to replace it. But there was no damage.

 

[younghandyman]

You may want to look at one of the big box websites for "round Junction box" to see the different ways they are attached to the ceiling. Typically, there is a bracket of some type that attaches to a ceiling joist. If so, use a stud finder to find that joist, and then you could use a sawzall to slide between the side of the box and the joist, and cut the bracket or nails that are holding the box to the joist.

It may also be an "old work" type of box, where all you would have to do would be to loosen the 3 screws on the box that are holding wing like tabs to the back of the drywall.

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So I went into the attic and saw that the junction boxes are just held in by some screws so those won't be a problem to remove.

Now I just need to order the lights and get started. I found these ones on Amazon, is there any chance somebody has used these? I want the pivot style bulb and this seems to meet it and provides the simplicity of the wafer light.

LED Gimbal Slim Panel Recessed Down Light/4 Inch/5000K (Daylight)/10 Watts/750 Lume... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07GJSWBJW/?tag=atomicindus04-20


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[850xpeps]

These are 2” thick? The size lists as 12cmx12cmx6cm.
I personally don’t like the look of them.

Is there a reason you want a gimble style instead of a regular one?

Is cULus rated all that’s required to meet nec?

We need csa approved up here.

 

[cybrdyke]

So I went into the attic and saw that the junction boxes are just held in by some screws so those won't be a problem to remove.

Now I just need to order the lights and get started. I found these ones on Amazon, is there any chance somebody has used these? I want the pivot style bulb and this seems to meet it and provides the simplicity of the wafer light.

LED Gimbal Slim Panel Recessed Down Light/4 Inch/5000K (Daylight)/10 Watts/750 Lume... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07GJSWBJW/?tag=atomicindus04-20


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I haven't used that brand. They're definitely inexpensive, though, but have a couple good reviews. It's not super-efficient, but it's also not super-expensive.
Watts/lumens/Color, etc. seems right for the price. It has all the certifications that you should be looking for.
It appears that the gimbal might only be a back-and-forth swivel, which is not an issue as long as you orient the thing correctly in the ceiling. I didn't see anything saying it was a 360 degree gimbal.
These are 5000K, which is really blue-ish. Most folks dont like that inside their home. Garage, yes. Living room...no. Do they make it in 3000K?

 

[younghandyman]

These are 2” thick? The size lists as 12cmx12cmx6cm.
I personally don’t like the look of them.

Is there a reason you want a gimble style instead of a regular one?

Is cULus rated all that’s required to meet nec?

We need csa approved up here.

I'm not too familiar with the terms you've used here. What are cULus?

In Toronto, we need to have csa approved lights?


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[younghandyman]

I haven't used that brand. They're definitely inexpensive, though, but have a couple good reviews. It's not super-efficient, but it's also not super-expensive.

Watts/lumens/Color, etc. seems right for the price. It has all the certifications that you should be looking for.

It appears that the gimbal might only be a back-and-forth swivel, which is not an issue as long as you orient the thing correctly in the ceiling. I didn't see anything saying it was a 360 degree gimbal.

These are 5000K, which is really blue-ish. Most folks dont like that inside their home. Garage, yes. Living room...no. Do they make it in 3000K?

I don't see anything about a 3000k option but we did some more research after your comment and decided on 4000k colour because the 5000k prevents you from sleeping.

We decided on these lights, can you give me your opinion on using these?

Green Canada LED 4Inch 9W 750LM LED recessed Slim Pot Light,IC-Rated Slim Downlight/Ceiling Light with Junction Box, Dimmable ETL/Energy Star Approved(10 Pack) (4000K/natural White) https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07BB512KY/?tag=atomicindus04-20


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[cybrdyke]

You ditched the gimbal, then? I see no issue with these. These have a slight recess, which is good. Recommend you get a dimmer switch for them because they are pretty bright. For reference, they're the same brightness as a 60w light bulb, but...all the light going in one direction (down) and no lamp shade. It's a good amount of light, but there will be times when you want to tone it down. Sticking with my 3000K recommendation, though.
Good luck,
CD

 

[850xpeps]

I don't see anything about a 3000k option but we did some more research after your comment and decided on 4000k colour because the 5000k prevents you from sleeping.

We decided on these lights, can you give me your opinion on using these?

Green Canada LED 4Inch 9W 750LM LED recessed Slim Pot Light,IC-Rated Slim Downlight/Ceiling Light with Junction Box, Dimmable ETL/Energy Star Approved(10 Pack) (4000K/natural White) https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07BB512KY/?tag=atomicindus04-20


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You should need csa then like these lights have. If they don’t and something like a house fire happens you could be sol.

These lights were $22 ish a piece through an electrician that was getting from his supplier here in Manitoba.

I would stick with 4000k like you chose but on those lights I don’t think they are csa approved.

Other brands have metal trim rings but I find them glossy and not as clean and white like these. Also have a nice taper to the trim so it don’t look bulky.


In my last house I just put a small hole for the one wire to go up and had someone locate from below with a small rod while I was in attic. Then they would feed up wire and I would screw the joiner together. I knew how far apart my lights were gonna be so I built the “harness” in the house rather than the attic.

And yes add a dimmer. These lights are bright.

 

[tfi racing]

You will likely not like the 4000K lights in a residential application unless you enjoy living in a garish operating room like setting. I would never use anything over 3500K in a kitchen or living room, most residential light we are accustomed to over the last 50 or so years is in the 2700-3000K range.

 

[850xpeps]

You will likely not like the 4000K lights in a residential application unless you enjoy living in a garish operating room like setting. I would never use anything over 3500K in a kitchen or living room, most residential light we are accustomed to over the last 50 or so years is in the 2700-3000K range.

I love the 4K. Is isn’t a sterile feeling at all. Just the right amount imo.

 

[younghandyman]

You should need csa then like these lights have. If they don’t and something like a house fire happens you could be sol.

These lights were $22 ish a piece through an electrician that was getting from his supplier here in Manitoba.

I would stick with 4000k like you chose but on those lights I don’t think they are csa approved.

Other brands have metal trim rings but I find them glossy and not as clean and white like these. Also have a nice taper to the trim so it don’t look bulky.


In my last house I just put a small hole for the one wire to go up and had someone locate from below with a small rod while I was in attic. Then they would feed up wire and I would screw the joiner together. I knew how far apart my lights were gonna be so I built the “harness” in the house rather than the attic.

And yes add a dimmer. These lights are bright.

Per the Q&A on amazon and the description, these are approved for use in Canada per electrical code, I will double check the manual and box once I receive them to make sure.

It says a 4 1/8" hole needs to be cut for these. There are some existing lights in place from the builder that have slightly over 4" holes cut out for the junction box, will I just be able to sand the holes down to fit this light in or will I have to do something else?

Thanks for the replies.


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[850xpeps]

Per the Q&A on amazon and the description, these are approved for use in Canada per electrical code, I will double check the manual and box once I receive them to make sure.

It says a 4 1/8" hole needs to be cut for these. There are some existing lights in place from the builder that have slightly over 4" holes cut out for the junction box, will I just be able to sand the holes down to fit this light in or will I have to do something else?

Thanks for the replies.


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4 1/8” is tight. 41/4” fits just nice. You can take a keyhole saw used for drywall and cut on the push up.

 

[cybrdyke]

Per the Q&A on amazon and the description, these are approved for use in Canada per electrical code, I will double check the manual and box once I receive them to make sure.

The ad says that they're ETL listed. You're good to go....
CD

 

[younghandyman]

The ad says that they're ETL listed. You're good to go....
CD

They say CSA approved on the box so they are good to go.


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[younghandyman]

Thank you to everyone who helped.

 

[younghandyman]

If someone does the work themselves, does anyone know if I can get the work certified after the fact by the ESA in Ontario?


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[850xpeps]

If someone does the work themselves, does anyone know if I can get the work certified after the fact by the ESA in Ontario?


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Call your ahj and inquire about a self wire permit. That will let you know I would assume.


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[Falcon67]

You will likely not like the 4000K lights in a residential application unless you enjoy living in a garish operating room like setting. I would never use anything over 3500K in a kitchen or living room, most residential light we are accustomed to over the last 50 or so years is in the 2700-3000K range.

X2 - 3500K is as bright a color temp as we get in the house. That's the pots in the kitchen and laundry. 3000 minimum for vanity bulbs as I hate the orange from 2800 units.

As for the Q "wiring potlights" it's a PITA without regard to the thickness of the light - you still have to get a wire there and in some places, that's a *****. Like the master bath where my wife wants a few - that's a super ***** spot to access.

 

[younghandyman]

Once I get to the lights on the first floor of our two storey house, I'm trying to decide if I should cut out the drywall to remove existing electrical boxes that hold the lights and then patch it up and then install the potlights or if I should buy a cutting tool and cut the box up and pull it out in pieces? Which one would you recommend? Pretty sure they are plastic junction boxes.


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[cybrdyke]

There are LED lights that are designed to go into steel octagon ceiling boxes. Easy to install, if that's the kind of box that you have up there. These are 4" :
https://www.liteline.com/20000334-master_slmt4/slim-multi/4%22-slimled-multi
CD

 

[younghandyman]

There are LED lights that are designed to go into steel octagon ceiling boxes. Easy to install, if that's the kind of box that you have up there. These are 4" :
https://www.liteline.com/20000334-master_slmt4/slim-multi/4"-slimled-multi
CD

We want to keep the lights consistent with the look we have on both floors so we're going to use the same lights which were linked in the amazon post previously.


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[younghandyman]

We want to keep the lights consistent with the look we have on both floors so we're going to use the same lights which were linked in the amazon post previously.


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The question I have now is what is the cleanest way to do this, cut drywall and repatch or try to cut up the junction box and pull it out through the existing hole?


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[850xpeps]

How are the boxes attached? They shouldn’t be bigger than the hole required for the light. Are the screwed or nailed in?

 

[younghandyman]

How are the boxes attached? They shouldn’t be bigger than the hole required for the light. Are the screwed or nailed in?

The boxes are actually part of a bigger plastic peice which has a flat plate which screws into the joists. It won't fit through the drywall hole for the light.



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