I'm a wiring idiot so I need some advise. I have a certified electrician that is doing the work. I'm making provisions for the Bendpack lift that will be going in and he needs to know if he can run 10/2 romex for the 25 amp circuit or is the 25 amp the breaker rating? All they say on their site is it needs a 25 amp fuse. Nay help would be greatly appreciated.
Wiring question
- Thread starter Big_Jim
- Start date
sickjuice
Well-known member
Your electrician is not 'certified' if he can't answer that
ishiboo
Well-known member
#10 will be fine. IMO it'd be fine undersized with #12 given how lifts are used, but #10 will be required.
The motor is likely nameplated at 20 amps or so.
Thanks. The electrician was thinking he had to run a much larger wire (like a dryer line or electric stove size wire). Sorry for my ignorance I just know nothing about wiring. He was rattling of all kinds of wire sizes & draws & ratings. I'm trying to interpret what he is talking about & I have no clue how to get the point across. I can't find any info on the lift. All they say is 25 amp fuse. Thanks for all the help guy's.
nehog
Well-known member
Agreed...
The motor requirements seem (to me) to be well stated: a 25 amp circuit.
sberry
Banned
A 12 wire is suffecient for this lift, a 10 wont hurt but wont help either. Since this is a motor circuit it may use a larger breaker, probably calls for a 30 max, the 25 may be listed for the minimum wire size which as a guess is 14, my Mohawk lists 14/30
Its not really the motor requirment in this case but the overcurrent. Equipment like this uses a dedicated circuit, wire size/breakers are not always the same as a general use branch circuit with multiple outlets where the end user can keep plugging things in to it.
A AC225 welder is a good example, calls for a 50A circuit, in some cases this can be with a number 12 wire. Machine comes with a 12 cord.
Its not really the motor requirment in this case but the overcurrent. Equipment like this uses a dedicated circuit, wire size/breakers are not always the same as a general use branch circuit with multiple outlets where the end user can keep plugging things in to it.
A AC225 welder is a good example, calls for a 50A circuit, in some cases this can be with a number 12 wire. Machine comes with a 12 cord.
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Chadwilliam1
Well-known member
he may be certified by someone but i doubt he has at state license.
sickjuice
Well-known member
All a 'certified' electrician would need is the info off the nameplate and his codebook. This is second level apprentice stuff, very basic. I'm guessing his 'certification' is a cute certificate he got for attending a how-to session at home depot? I hope your not paying this guy because he is a plug of an electrician if he even has to think about how to size a small motor circuit.
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For motor circuits 14 AWG is 20A, 12 AWG is 25A, & 10 AWG is 35A, but these ampacities do not apply when NM Cable "Romex" is used, NM cable is limited to the 60 degree ampacity & there are other requirements to be met.
The OP is using NM cable so 10/2 would be required & 25A overcurrent protection, a 25A circuit breaker is a standard size but big box stores do not carry them so a legitimate supply house is the best choice or use a cheap 30A pullout A/C disco w/ 25A fuses at the lift, they are less then $10, fuses not included.
Guy's guy's calm down! I don't have the lift yet so I don't have the info off the motor plate. I will call the manufacturer Monday to find out their recommendations. I was figuring if someone had a bendpack lift wired in they could give us a heads up on the wire size that's all. Didn't mean to get everyone's knickers in a bunch.
e-tek
Well-known member
Well now you've DONE it! Looks like Sickjuice won't be able to sleep for days! He's likely lying in bed right now with the sheets pulled up to his nose, sweating profusely, going over this thread in his head....
Next time you have a question from your so-called"certified" electrician, try to be a little more sensitive. Sheesh!
Next time you have a question from your so-called"certified" electrician, try to be a little more sensitive. Sheesh!
Well now you've DONE it! Looks like Sickjuice won't be able to sleep for days! He's likely lying in bed right now with the sheets pulled up to his nose, sweating profusely, going over this thread in his head....
Next time you have a question from your so-called"certified" electrician, try to be a little more sensitive. Sheesh!
Maybe he should try therapy.
ddawg16
Well-known member
In my neck of the woods, someone that is 'certified' is put in a nut house....
When it come the electricans...the more common term is 'licensed'. Basically, it means that they have met a minimum standard of knowledge.
With that said....I am starting to realize that there is a big difference between the knowledge/experience of residentual vs comercial electricians on this site.......
10/2 Wire is fine.
When it come the electricans...the more common term is 'licensed'. Basically, it means that they have met a minimum standard of knowledge.
With that said....I am starting to realize that there is a big difference between the knowledge/experience of residentual vs comercial electricians on this site.......
10/2 Wire is fine.
darkk
Well-known member
#12 will be fine. Your *certified* [sic] electrician should already know this...
sberry
Banned
Right, a piece of 12 and a 20, if it would trip it for some reasom use a 30 but I doubt it. As I recall he acutal draw on mine is 13.8
pattenp
Well-known member
A lot of the lift manufactures use SPX Fluid Power units. On my Challenger lift the motor plate shows 18A @ 230V. The install instructions say to use a 25A breaker. If using NM, use #10 with a 25A breaker.
sberry
Banned
Does it list the minimum wire size? Mine has it on the tag. Also does yours have its own thermal on the motor? A 10 certainly wont hurt but something to consider is this has a duty cycle of about 50 seconds.
If it has its own thermal the max allowable breaker may actually be higher depending on the wire its fed with. Some of this equipment really should have layman's terms in a section of the manual. Some of these little welders are confusing, they list 14 wire and 30 or 35A ocpd, comes with a 50A plug, confuses the **** out of everyone.
First, no one really thinks the 14 is a great idea even if legal and second/and/or a guy figures he has to downsize the breaker from 50. Not true if the wire is 12 or better, (90 wire) I mean who in the fuk is gonna bother to run a pipe for single circuit and put 14 in it? What are you going to do when you get to the recept, its listed for 12 or 10 anyway. More likely someone will read it and not consider the footnotes, see, 14 is fine and use a cable. I spose there is some reason they just don't recommend a size up and avoid a lot of pain???
Ok, so what is a 12 NM good for on a motor circuit then? 20A
If it has its own thermal the max allowable breaker may actually be higher depending on the wire its fed with. Some of this equipment really should have layman's terms in a section of the manual. Some of these little welders are confusing, they list 14 wire and 30 or 35A ocpd, comes with a 50A plug, confuses the **** out of everyone.
First, no one really thinks the 14 is a great idea even if legal and second/and/or a guy figures he has to downsize the breaker from 50. Not true if the wire is 12 or better, (90 wire) I mean who in the fuk is gonna bother to run a pipe for single circuit and put 14 in it? What are you going to do when you get to the recept, its listed for 12 or 10 anyway. More likely someone will read it and not consider the footnotes, see, 14 is fine and use a cable. I spose there is some reason they just don't recommend a size up and avoid a lot of pain???
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pattenp
Well-known member
The SPX unit on my Challenger doesn't list a minimum wire size and it doesn't have its own thermal breaker on the motor. To me it's not worth all the dead brain cells debating if you can get by with #12. It's easier to just go with the #10 NM and use the recommended breaker size and be done with it. 
The SPX unit on my Challenger doesn't list a minimum wire size and it doesn't have its own thermal breaker on the motor. To me it's not worth all the dead brain cells debating if you can get by with #12. It's easier to just go with the #10 NM and use the recommended breaker size and be done with it.
True. I agree we have wasted too many brain cells on debating wire size as well as on bashing my electrician. Thanks for all the help guy's.
Dick in Wisconsin
Well-known member
Isn't bigger always better anyway?
sberry
Banned
This is cant miss advice but if I am installing this for a bud its gonna get a 30 ideally a 10 but could be a 12 if materials are at hand, lots of factors. In my shop it got 10/30, the run is fairly long but also sistered a welding recept to it for convenience.
There is often a difference in what someone might do in practice (often the best advice) and what is required,, and many cases absolutely adequate. As Norcal eleuded to, other requirements may apply as well as conditions. Sounds like mr certified is using due dillegence, I think they intentionally size many of these devices to fall in to catagory, I doubt there is a (consumer grade) for lack of better wording lift that isnt legal to wire with a 12 cable. I think they size it to fall under about half an amp.
'Cept in California, it's electrical certification, a few levels are residential electrician, general certified electrician, lighting technician (folks who eff everything up, IMHO, just like low voltage installers). The resi exam had 50 questions, the general exam had 100 questions, not sure if it's changed.
The weird thing is if you work for a C10 electrical contractor you have to be certified or in a approved training program, but if one works for any other contractor, it's not required, a C10 lic. holder is not required to be certified, but if they work for another C10, they do require certification. Just another example of strange rules, but 'nuff of the off topic for now.
Here is a link: http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECU_FAQ.htm
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sberry
Banned
The 200A class compact wire welder is interesting, while it allows for 14 and a 14 cord on the machine would serve the demand they use a 12 cord which combined with its own thermal allows it to be used on common 50A welder circuits, hence the 50A plug. Its own thermal protects its internals to the switch and cord and the possible applied load cannot overheat the wire, the 12 will short a 50 in the event of a fault.
I agree with this, as I mentioned sounds like your guy is being diligent with concern to size, I see no reason to pick on him, its a good thing. The reason a debate and the mental ************ is not a total waste is that there is a lot of theory and understanding as to general principles of circuit design that comes from this. Like I said, things ain't always what they seem, if you read the Hobart manual would also think the max breaker for the machine is 35, its not. When the codes get down to minimum standards they get confusing, when I look at a tool I do glance at the name plate, especially tool for common home/garage use, if it comes cord supplied generally use a cable a size up hard to miss. With motors, comps and welding machines may need to up size the breaker. A tool like a kiln or oven is slightly different, that covers most basics found in these types of garages. A bunch of these "5" hp comps are Burt to fall in to this standard, can feed them with a 10, go to the next class 7 1/2 it needs 8. Not true for every 8 motor maybe but for these kinds of consumer tools.
sberry
Banned
I was wondering on how they deal with some of that, I am not sure if a plumber is allowed to connect a boiler in Michigan or a Sign installer to make this connection. He cant run the circuit.
In the real world biggest one they mess up is no equipment disconnect. We have plants here, maintenance electricians, I can tell when they wired the garage with a single circuit, service no switch. Second thing I run in to is bond/ground issues, to include 3 wire outlets on 2. Put 2 wires under N screw. Its really a rare day I see something truly under wired, have never seen personally or know anyone burned down a garage from a welding circuit, have seen a couple comps with light wire, never caught fire. Most home brew types are overkill, they hear 220 and figure everything needs a heavier wire, ha.
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ddawg16
Well-known member
'Cept in California, it's electrical certification, a few levels are residential electrician, general certified electrician, lighting technician (folks who eff everything up, IMHO, just like low voltage installers). The resi exam had 50 questions, the general exam had 100 questions, not sure if it's changed.
The weird thing is if you work for a C10 electrical contractor you have to be certified or in a approved training program, but if one works for any other contractor, it's not required, a C10 lic. holder is not required to be certified, but if they work for another C10, they do require certification. Just another example of strange rules, but 'nuff of the off topic for now.
Here is a link: http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECU_FAQ.htm
Learn something every day....thanks Norcal......
But the really good news.....I can still do all my own work.....
Red Box
Active member
I may have missed this with all of the commotion.... but another factor for wire size is the distance to the panel.