Wobble extensions?

[Uncle Buck]

Guys, don't read so much into it. This was the original exchange:




That's pretty straightforward. The guy has apparently never broken an extension, which likely means he doesn't do this stuff for a living. Here's how King and I both jumped to that conclusion:

Let's assume that replacing a motor mount pays 4 hours because you have to drop the front suspension/subframe assembly to do it the way the book says...

...But you can partially pry part X out of the way, cram a 3/8" drive extension in there with a 21mm wobble on it, and break the widget in question loose in 15 minutes. Problem is, the torque spec on that 21mm bolt is very high.

It's time to bust out the 1/2" impact (or breaker bar) and a reducer. Extension #1 meats a speedy demise, extension #2 pops it loose, and you've got the vehicle out the door in 1 hour flat.

Scenarios like that are why (1)We have so many duplicate ratchets and extensions in our drawers, and (2)Why we pay a lot for tools that get warrantied no-questions-asked.

If you need that explained to you, there's nothing wrong with that. But you don't work on cars for a living. You certainly aren't unfortunate enough to be flate-rate like King & myself.

I guess I can see the point you are trying to make, but once again this makes me more determined than ever to keep doing everything I can in the way of my own vehicle repairs. With this explanation I envision some poor soul working at a frantic pace in an attempt to beat some labor rate displayed in a book so he can make a bit more money or break even for the day. Granted I do not do this for a living (going by what you are describing I am damned glad I do not) I do not want anyone that has to work at this frantic a pace, or must resort to these kind of measures anywhere near my ride. Call it what you will; I am glad I do not have to put up with that kind of work like most of the rest of the country. I do appreciate the heads up on flat rate, I will make sure to avoid that at all costs in the event I ever need anything done in a shop!

 

[Danglerb]

The books get written when the car is built, lots of things don't start to break for 5 or 10 years, so I expect many many things have innovation in the field you won't find in any book. Thats the way in goes in most of the car groups, people work out tricks.

I'm cool with the whole pro amateur thing, two different worlds, and it must seem crazy as hell that some of us want to come and play where you have to work, but its a crazy world. I'm still kind of surprised when I talk to pros that don't think working on cars is fun.

A shortcut that breaks a tool, even a cheap one, I don't know if I would be hitting it that hard. Maybe give it a shot of PB Blaster or Kroil and take a break for 15 minutes or so. Maybe give it a shot of hot or cold. I'm too trained to think that breaking something is screwing up, and maybe thats a big difference, pro's aren't afraid of messing up at little at least.

 

[TNToy]

...Working at a frantic pace in an attempt to beat some labor rate displayed in a book so he can make a bit more money or break even for the day. Granted I do not do this for a living (going by what you are describing I am damned glad I do not) I do not want anyone that has to work at this frantic a pace, or must resort to these kind of measures anywhere near my ride...

That's pretty much it. If you don't turn 80 hours in a 50 hour week, good luck making more than 50K a year in this buisness...

...I will make sure to avoid that at all costs in the event I ever need anything done in a shop!

Good luck with that... Everyone is paid (or at least works) that way.

Remember, we're not abusing the car in this scenario, just the tools.

I'm still kind of surprised when I talk to pros that don't think working on cars is fun.

We used to...

A shortcut that breaks a tool, even a cheap one, I don't know if I would be hitting it that hard. Maybe give it a shot of PB Blaster or Kroil and take a break for 15 minutes or so.

I can have the subframe removed from said vehicle in 15 minutes, so it wouldn't be much of a shortcut. Sitting still costs us money - and that is the single biggest difference between wrenching at home, and wrenching for pay.

I'm too trained to think that breaking something is screwing up, and maybe thats a big difference, pro's aren't afraid of messing up at little at least.

In this hypothetical scenario, we're not trying/planning to break tools - it's just a risk you run hauling on a 3/8" drive wobble socket with a 24" breaker bar, or a 1/2" impact.

That's where high quality truck tools come in. They're more likely to survive, and if they don't, I don't have to leave the lot to get 'em warrantied.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Good luck with that... Everyone is paid (or at least works) that way.

I guess I must be a fair wrench cause few and far between are the times I turn anything over; I am right on track so far!

 

[Freejack]

Getting back to the discussion, I know they are more expensive, but what about the CV-style swivels? The range is limited compared to a u-joint style wobble, I find them to be much easier to use. They don't tend to break over when you put some extra torque through, especially as you reach the edge of the angluar range.

I have a nice 1/2 impact swivel (forget the brand at the moment) that I find myself using from time to time.

Jake

 

[-lecroix-]

That's where high quality truck tools come in. They're more likely to survive, and if they don't, I don't have to leave the lot to get 'em warrantied.

That is IF it happens to be the day the truck is on your lot ... if not, you gotta wait till next week.

 

[ColdDuckTime]

You know, now that I think of it I'm kind of suprised that materials technology hasn't kept up with manual tools (at least it seems like it). You would think that a mechanic could buy a set of something with a teensy, strong as heck drive size (maybe a 1/4" or so spline) with everything made out of uber-strong materials/shapes, and as small as possible..especially things like u-joints. I know I'm not up on my metals, but you'd think they could build a socket or extension that no amount of human-pushing on a yard long lever could harm.

 

[Danglerb]

Properly heat treated high grade steel is very tough to beat, but I suspect a 3/8" x 24" extension made out of the best grade of steel would be around $300 if it was produced in any quantity. I also suspect they exist. There are industrial grade tools, and purpose made tools, that cost isn't a factor on.

While I am blowing smoke on the subject, wouldn't you ideally need two different sets of extension, one designed and heat treat for impact use with low flex etc., and one for the breaker bar?

 

[eschoendorff]

Properly heat treated high grade steel is very tough to beat, but I suspect a 3/8" x 24" extension made out of the best grade of steel would be around $300 if it was produced in any quantity. I also suspect they exist. There are industrial grade tools, and purpose made tools, that cost isn't a factor on.

While I am blowing smoke on the subject, wouldn't you ideally need two different sets of extension, one designed and heat treat for impact use with low flex etc., and one for the breaker bar?

Probably. That's why they have hand and impact tools.

 

[ColdDuckTime]

While I am blowing smoke on the subject, wouldn't you ideally need two different sets of extension, one designed and heat treat for impact use with low flex etc., and one for the breaker bar?

Why not. The thing I'm mostly getting at is that I'd rather own one uber-set than three (or six) normal socket sets.

That sort of rearrangement brings me back to my other notion of buying socket sets by size. Assuming that there was some sort of discount given for sets (not assumable for Snap On), it would be interesting to buy a box with all lengths/wobble/6vs12 pt etc of a given size...all using this TBD super dooper form of drive.

 

[Danglerb]

More smoke, guessing a "good" $5 1/2" extension, is better than the best possible 1/4" extension, maybe about as good as typical grade of 3/8" extension. Its just hard to argue with cross section, ratio of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 in cross section is 1/16, 1/7, 1/4 or about 1:2:4. Stuff below says its D cubed so strength is about 1:3.5:8.

Torsion Resisting Moments of Shafts of Various Cross Sections
Shaft Cross Section Area Maximum Torsional
Resisting Moment - Tmax - (Nm, in lb) Nomenclature
Solid Cylinder Shaft ( pi/16) σmax D^3

σmax = maximum shear stress (MPa, psi)

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torsion-shafts-d_947.html

 

[SantaAna12]

"If you don't work on cars for a living, then you don't know anything about tools."

I know a few Marine Engineers that would find that amusing.

 

[Arne73]

I broke a 1/2 drive 3" extension last week while trying to loosen a real stubborn bolt. I had a longer wobble drive inserted in the female end and it split one whole side off. My guess is that the wobble end was not fully seated in the short extension, causing it to spread and crack. The broken extension was a JTT (Japan) and the wobble was a Gearwrench.

 

[Mastermind]

i just had this discusion with my snap-on man last week, i've never broke an extension. my most used is a 6" 1/4 drive companion. bought in a pinch,don't know why, just always the one i grab first, its like the wobble plus, had it for 10 yrs, used daily, and yes, i work on cars for a living, i know, i'm only a bodyman, but i've broke thousands of 6 and 8mm bolts with that extension. it is starting tho get a little worn at the ratchet end, may be time to send it to the road box. I will admit i'm bad about the oversized socket/too small a drive size thing....but if they make it i'll use it.

 

[vga]

I have the proto 3/8 extensions wobble set and like them alot. I use them all of the time.I agree with the OP that there are times when you must use a universial socket just due to a lack of operating space. And I happen to be a Marine Engineer !!

 

[ra42mario]

The best wobbles for your money will be the Duralast set from Autozone. I use the 3/8" drive daily on a 650ft-lbs 1/2" impact and never had one break yet. If they do (which will probably never happen) they are lifetime warranty. For $20 you won't find anything near them.

Yes, they are used in a professional setting (mechanic), just a hidden gem of a tool!

 

[usdemt]

Anybody else notice this thread is almost 5 years old?

 

[ra42mario]

Your point? Somebody did a search, found the thread that already had information in it, and built on it. It keeps the clutter of new threads on the same topic down.

Do authors rewrite an entire science book when new information is discovered? No, they release a new edition with changes made.

 

[vga]

errrr, no I hadnt noticed that!! o well!!

 

[NC-Fordguy]

Guys, you just don't understand. If you don't work on cars for a living, then you don't know anything about tools, and you're using your tools incorrectly.

********. Totally arrogant statement. I would never ever take one of my vehicles to someone like you. While I don't wrench as a living, I do wrench after my real job to earn extra cash and to fund my hobbies. I repair modify and restore cars and trucks that are 30, 40, 50 years old. Stuff a "professional" is to scared to touch. I've been doing so for over 30 years. So whatever you want to spew..been there done that.

Proper use and application of tools ultimately results in their destruction (unless they're made by Snap-On). If you're not breaking your tools, you're not using them correctly.

More ********. Most tools break from mis-use. Sometimes **** does happen and things to break. That's life. But any brand can and will break. I have a bit of everything and have broken something from everybody. Come to think of it the only extension that ever failed on me was a snap on. The little friction ball fell out

Man, just because you're employed to do something doesn't mean you're qualified to do it, or even slightly skilled. Jiffy Lube hires people that used to work at McDonald's, yet people think that they're magically qualified to change your oil and perform other services without screwing things up.

Agreed

Having a job and being able to do the job are two completely seperate things.

Agreed as well. Too often I hear this from someone who claims to be a pro in the automotive field. Quite often the sense of self worth and boasting doesn't translate into results they boast about

 

[usdemt]

Your point? Somebody did a search, found the thread that already had information in it, and built on it. It keeps the clutter of new threads on the same topic down.

Do authors rewrite an entire science book when new information is discovered? No, they release a new edition with changes made.

Thats my point exactly, the thread is 5 years old....Should I draw a picture? The way the responses where coming I just wanted to make sure they knew it was 5 years old. Also the thread digger did not build on it, he simply kept the ******* match going.

Am I the only one who reads the whole thread before replying?

 

[Tooling Around]

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but do wobble extensions increase the risk of cracking open the socket they're plugged into?

 

[geartow]

A 8 plus year old thread, but to answer ur question in my experience the extension will break before the socket .

 

[PJNJ]

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but do wobble extensions increase the risk of cracking open the socket they're plugged into?

The reason most people don't like old threads being resurrected is that people (like me) usually read through the whole thread only to get to a question that should be post no. 1 in a new thread. I wasted a lot of time to get to your question.

The answer is that the wobble extension will usually fail before the socket does.

Next time start a new thread.

 

[Schurkey]

1. Wobble extensions are weaker than regular extensions due to the reduction in cross-section area at the base of the wobble end. That's where they break. DON'T use a wobble-drive extension if a regular extension, or a U-joint will work.

2. Wobble extensions wear faster than regular extensions due to the localized stress--the torque primarily transfers at the largest diameter of the wobble end. That's where the wobble extension will show distortion over time. It makes sense that this localized stress also causes wear/distortion in the socket square-drive opening also, although I've never noticed any problems. DON'T use a wobble-drive extension if a regular extension, or a U-joint will work.

3. The inexpensive way to get wobble action is to buy the shortest available wobble extension in each drive size that you care about, and then pop the short wobble onto whatever longer ordinary extension is required to get the length needed. I bought my wobble extensions in the late 1980s; to this day I only own one in 1/4" drive, one in 1/2" drive, and the most-worn 3/8" drive wobble is the shortest one--although I did end-up buying the 3/8" set, up to about one foot long. The number-one thing I used wobble-extensions for was spark plugs. I DON'T use a wobble-drive extension if a regular extension, or a U-joint will work.

4. The only extension I remember breaking was a non-wobble 3/8" Snappy perhaps 8" long, which I was using to break-loose lug nuts that I had been assured were no more than 80 ft/lbs tight. MY ***. After snapping the extension clean somewhere in the middle, I put a torque wrench on those nuts, and they wouldn't pop at 100 ft/lbs. I had to go get the half-drive torque wrench and set it progressively higher until they started breaking loose at about 150 ft/lbs. Fukkin' Goodyear/Gemini either used the wrong "torque stick", or they flat-*** didn't bother and just hammered them on with the half-drive impact wrench. I have sense enough to use a 3/8" impact when working on wheels/tires, and I don't let it rattle until my ears bleed, either. I can pretty reliably hit 40--50 ft/lbs, and then I go the rest of the way with a torque wrench.

 

[got2boostit2]

Love wobbles. No issues to report.