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wood shed floor question

kszach

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Richfield, WI
I'm in the process of planning (overthinking) my 12x20 shed.

Is there anything wrong with the following layout? 2x12 along the 20' dimension (3 of them along the 12' dimension). Then 2x6's 16 o.c. between.
kRlZ5W8jVt3qP5NaJzyY37g5GewkDyGdOzYqYmFof94T=w1580-h773-no


The blocks will be the post support pier http://www.menards.com/main/deckestimator/footing-type/post-support-pier/p-1965653-c-5647.htm?tid=9180050942183530779

I was originally thinking about putting a 2x6 floor on 4x4x20' skids but I don't see the need for the 4x4's since there is no way this would ever get transplanted.
 
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Cyberbear

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Everything I can see in your picture looks right, just make sure it's level, square and fastened together properly.
 

theoldwizard1

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For maximum strength, the joists (cross pieces) must be connect to the beams (2x12s) with joist hangers OR sit on top of the beams. If you used 2x8 joists, you could probably go 24" O.C.

Remove the sod under shed and dig down and extra 4". Back fill with gravel.

Some zoning law require that sheds without a foundation be capable of being moved. Also the higher above ground you are, the less likely you will have critters moving in !
 

bczygan

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I'm in the process of planning (overthinking) my 12x20 shed.

Is there anything wrong with the following layout? 2x12 along the 20' dimension (3 of them along the 12' dimension). Then 2x6's 16 o.c. between.
kRlZ5W8jVt3qP5NaJzyY37g5GewkDyGdOzYqYmFof94T=w1580-h773-no


The blocks will be the post support pier http://www.menards.com/main/deckestimator/footing-type/post-support-pier/p-1965653-c-5647.htm?tid=9180050942183530779

I was originally thinking about putting a 2x6 floor on 4x4x20' skids but I don't see the need for the 4x4's since there is no way this would ever get transplanted.

Yes!........It's wood.

The only reason I would do a wood framed floor, is if it had to be such, for a designation as a temporary building. That said, I have a number of sheds that are wood framed, and only one with a concrete slab.

Wood is easier for the average guy to do, solves inaccessible locations.

But it may not support the desired loads and creates a problem with a ramp being needed for the entry. And the space underneath can harbor critters. It also uses up some of the height allowed for accessory buildings under zoning rules.

There is a battle between the various demands in a wood framed floor system. You want wood to be far enough above grade, that it is protected from deterioration from splashing rain. At the same time you want to minimize height, so the entry ramp isn't too long or steep.

To keep the structure of the floor as shallow as possible, you need to use more joists, spaced closer together, and made of stronger materials and spanning shorter distances.

Beams can be in the same plane as the joists, and the joists hung from them by hangers. More beams, placed closer together, means shorter spans for the joists, which means shallower joists.

Closer spacing of the beams means less contributing area to them, allowing less depth. Here again, stronger materials help.

Spacing the supports for the beams is also a factor. Place more supports, closer together, means beams can be less deep.

There is a point of diminishing returns as the number of support piers rises. These each need to have existing material removed and a base material placed and compacted. At some point it is easier to just strip the entire area, place a base and form and pour a slab.

I would never install a shed with skids or wood posts unless it was truly temporary and would be moved in a relatively short time. Wood of any type, in contact with the ground will deteriorate.

Bill
 

bczygan

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So now let's go through how to design and engineer a floor system for a shed.

This is true for any wood framed floor system, be it in a shed or a pole barn mezzanine or a second floor of a building.

First you need to determine the uses. You must decide on the loading you will design it to accommodate.

For your example, let's assume you are going to use it like a typical residential floor. That would be like furniture and people walking about on it. Note that if you are going to load your floor with piles of heavy stored things, or create point loads with heavy machines, that you will either pick higher loading factors, or design the structure for the point loads that are going to be created by specific machines.

This residential loading is a uniformly distributed loading of 40 pounds of live load per square foot, with an associated point loading of 250 pounds. The point load is like a person standing there. Because of this acceptable point load, I like to consider machines of that weight to be OK without additional design considerations. But think about a couple of people standing at a machine, using it. You now have a larger point load, and should consider locating the machine over a pier, so loads transfer more easily to the ground, rather in the middle of joist or beam spans.

So to design your space with the 40#/SF LL, you need to add 10#/SF for dead load. This is the weight of the structure itself.

Start by assuming that a 3/4" plywood floor sheathing will be used and the joist spacing will not exceed 16" on center. This will give a stable and rigid floor sheathing.

So first you design the joists. Using a joist calculator, we choose a typically available wood such as hem-fir in a #2 and better grade, and a 6" deep joist, to keep depth of the structure to a minimum. We use a deflection of L/240, which means it can deflect 1/240th of it's span, which for your 6' span, is 1/3".

http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc

The calculator shows it will span up to 9'10", so we're way over designed here. Great, that will be a nice stiff floor.

Next is designing the beams.

The contributing load for the middle beam is 6 square feet of floor area per lineal foot of beam. 6x50 pounds of total load equals 300 pounds of load per lineal foot of beam.

Next we decide on the spacing of the piers under this beam, so we can size the beam based on it's span.

I would place 4 piers under this beam to cut the spans to 5'.

Using this beam calculator with the same material grade gives us a 2x8 beam.
https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/arch264/calculators/example8.1/

There is a difference between designing the floor of a house and this type of floor for a shed. On a house, you typically have a continuous foundation wall supporting the house walls. Here you have beams supported by piers under the perimeter walls. These beams support the walls and roof, and must be sized for these loads.

I haven't calculated these loads and beams because I don't know your roof structure, wall height or loads. And remember that the 2 joists under the end walls have to be designed as beams to support the walls and roof, and their spans are 6' rather than 5'.

Do you understand all this?

As always, I disclaim that this is adequate for your use. I'm could be just some guy on the internet, probably a socially inept, pimply teenager, living in his mom's basement, and playing on the internet.

Bill
 
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kszach

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Location
Richfield, WI
So now let's go through how to design and engineer a floor system for a shed.

This is true for any wood framed floor system, be it in a shed or a pole barn mezzanine or a second floor of a building.

First you need to determine the uses. You must decide on the loading you will design it to accommodate.

For your example, let's assume you are going to use it like a typical residential floor. That would be like furniture and people walking about on it. Note that if you are going to load your floor with piles of heavy stored things, or create point loads with heavy machines, that you will either pick higher loading factors, or design the structure for the point loads that are going to be created by specific machines.

This residential loading is a uniformly distributed loading of 40 pounds of live load per square foot, with an associated point loading of 250 pounds. The point load is like a person standing there. Because of this acceptable point load, I like to consider machines of that weight to be OK without additional design considerations. But think about a couple of people standing at a machine, using it. You now have a larger point load, and should consider locating the machine over a pier, so loads transfer more easily to the ground, rather in the middle of joist or beam spans.

So to design your space with the 40#/SF LL, you need to add 10#/SF for dead load. This is the weight of the structure itself.

Start by assuming that a 3/4" plywood floor sheathing will be used and the joist spacing will not exceed 16" on center. This will give a stable and rigid floor sheathing.

So first you design the joists. Using a joist calculator, we choose a typically available wood such as hem-fir in a #2 and better grade, and a 6" deep joist, to keep depth of the structure to a minimum. We use a deflection of L/240, which means it can deflect 1/240th of it's span, which for your 6' span, is 1/3".

http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc

The calculator shows it will span up to 9'10", so we're way over designed here. Great, that will be a nice stiff floor.

Next is designing the beams.

The contributing load for the middle beam is 6 square feet of floor area per lineal foot of beam. 6x50 pounds of total load equals 300 pounds of load per lineal foot of beam.

Next we decide on the spacing of the piers under this beam, so we can size the beam based on it's span.

I would place 4 piers under this beam to cut the spans to 5'.

Using this beam calculator with the same material grade gives us a 2x8 beam.
https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/arch264/calculators/example8.1/

There is a difference between designing the floor of a house and this type of floor for a shed. On a house, you typically have a continuous foundation wall supporting the house walls. Here you have beams supported by piers under the perimeter walls. These beams support the walls and roof, and must be sized for these loads.

I haven't calculated these loads and beams because I don't know your roof structure, wall height or loads. And remember that the 2 joists under the end walls have to be designed as beams to support the walls and roof, and their spans are 6' rather than 5'.

Do you understand all this?

As always, I disclaim that this is adequate for your use. I'm could be just some guy on the internet, probably a socially inept, pimply teenager, living in his mom's basement, and playing on the internet.

Bill

Dang... that is a wealth of knowledge.

Shed will be a gambrel roof (lofted), peak 15' with 8' side walls.

I have two options for this floor.

1. as I sketched above.

2. 2x6 frame that sits on 4x4 PT skids. I don't have 20' 4x4s available so i would likely run 14'ers next to each other with 8' of overlap.

The one 20' wall will require piers that are set "down a bit" on concrete blocks. The area for the shed is a dug out hillside (on one side) and I don't feel as though the newly created "flat" is firm enough. I thought that if I put concrete blocks down near the original ground level and built it up with block to the new height, this would be more firm. This leads me to not wanting to dig too many holes which is why I thought of running a 2x12 instead of that 4x4 skid.
 

bczygan

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Dang... that is a wealth of knowledge.

Shed will be a gambrel roof (lofted), peak 15' with 8' side walls.

I have two options for this floor.

1. as I sketched above.

2. 2x6 frame that sits on 4x4 PT skids. I don't have 20' 4x4s available so i would likely run 14'ers next to each other with 8' of overlap.

The one 20' wall will require piers that are set "down a bit" on concrete blocks. The area for the shed is a dug out hillside (on one side) and I don't feel as though the newly created "flat" is firm enough. I thought that if I put concrete blocks down near the original ground level and built it up with block to the new height, this would be more firm. This leads me to not wanting to dig too many holes which is why I thought of running a 2x12 instead of that 4x4 skid.

The only advantage of making calculations, over just guessing or using rule of thumb, or copying someone else, is that you KNOW the capabilities of your structure, and can use it to full advantage.

Bill
 
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kszach

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Messages
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Richfield, WI
What would be more rot resistant?

The sketched floor sitting on concrete pier supports

or

2x6 framed floor that sits on 4x4 skids which sit on concrete blocks

Both are off the ground a few inches. Soil is sand with rock (orange to coconut sized).
 

WarDamnEagle

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Auburn
Inaccessible location via truck. It would be over 150 bags. Nobody seems to want to help when I mention that :)

Pump it or use a bobcat. Is it that inaccessible? It's only 3 or 4 yards of concrete depending on footing depth.
 
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kszach

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Pump it or use a bobcat. Is it that inaccessible? It's only 3 or 4 yards of concrete depending on footing depth.

Pump sounds expensive. I don't think a bobcat could do it, it is up a pretty good hill. Plus I'm not crazy about having a concrete truck drive up my hillside driveway, OK maybe the short pour truck (he's been up there before).
 

theoldwizard1

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Bill obviously knows a lot more about construction than I do. I a "seat of the pants" kind of guy when it comes to framing.

I would use doubled PT 2x10s for your main beams. Use hot dipped or stainless nails. If you can't get 20' in to the location, you can use shorter pieces, just make sure they overlap 30-50%. Construction adhesive, in addition to the nails, is a good idea.

I would still go with PT 2x8s 24 OC joist on top of the beams, but PT 2x6s would probably be fine. If you don't want the additional height, you reall should use joist hangers instead of toe nailing or through nailing the beam. The real issue is what kind of weight is going to be resting on that floor ? If you are looking for a home for a Bridgeport and a metal lathe you'l;need 2x10s 16" OC and 2 layers of 3/4 plywood for the floor :bounce: !


If you put the beams directly on the sod/soil you are asking very critter in the world to burrow under and make a home. Remove the sod, add more rock/gravel and use piers so that you have 4-8" under each beam, every 5-10' the length of each beam depending on the load.
 
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kszach

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Richfield, WI
Here is the other option:

6x6 skids 20' in length. 8" in from the outside edge and centered. Frame is 2x6 with a double band joist around the perimeter.

szjNGiaojN5K0fVWypAte6cepbRKMNGhDpBPIqP3GvLgeUuWpL-XA2ZJZvHwklMSjSKwTLT3cCBiNomrJnsCfzJRXaLSjznmHgJU90Spux_IpAuUK_gL2h8u1_8yfio7kwrBUeBAdAm9CwLA3_bI35TpCkZPvPzCC1a88SzRLhP_1gUmKXsLL-ZuKR91XJzvpWbYRxccHGXz5jnMQN6eRCAN-PUBBkU_i_TkckKUu_a584LRVBOD_igeRTRjqcEmEmOrJsOQZvjvYqo_VfXti8ARcxn6NtZqEh0PjWrPTWsfGbnr0xHtRdNrQD65vF1_eorcZonuj83LmCdJqwpQ-jhZPewe0jUIequplpkav_rl9ZaryyM9oB2nt3lZVlx5njc05u5vS4-umPWyqCkBCa8QC2Omr7SZiwzadfr9gh75xSkukMB4K9ek-D49RhiCGEGugIo9AaK_cR3AE9nGTWO8L6E78fNhVJi65fwlhlXiKXQkSKxPWTORmL6RlJplSUD54Mo=w1596-h749-no
 
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MagKarl

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Olympia, WA
That will be a tremendous amount of weight once you fill that shed up, especially if it's very tall. Will require substantial floor structure and many piers to minimize the spans.

I built my wood shed like a pole barn with a gravel floor, and reworked several pallets to fit the footprint and keep the wood up off the ground.
 

James-W

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I think that even though it may be a huge pain in the neck to pour a concrete floor, if you were to do a concrete floor you would a lot happier in the long term than you will be with a wood floor. I am not saying a wood floor is a bad thing, I am just saying a building 12X20 is fairly large and will potentially have quite a bit of weight in it. Having a concrete floor would make things a whole lot easier to get heavy objects in and out of the shed, not to mention keeping critters from getting under it. A concrete floor would also be beneficial in case of high winds, with the building anchored to the floor it would take an awfully strong wind to blow it over.
 
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Voi

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Western South Dakota
I built my wood shed like a pole barn with a gravel floor, and reworked several pallets to fit the footprint and keep the wood up off the ground.

I've thought about doing this and putting down rubber stall mats over gravel. I think some are made with channels on the underside for drainage. Pallets are a good idea though.

Might be a good choice for the OP's sloped site as well.
 
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