Wood stove

[sberry]

I just finished a risk assessment with the insurance and it was some what of a gamble about my shop stove. I really should have removed it and installed something UL instead prior. I got 5 stars on the rest of the place but for that and he even bought off my chimney. I do have a UL gas heater but my stove is home brew. Its a common stove and not a furnace, it works super well.
This makes my heat easy and affordable and is really tailored. Big door and a couple other things about directing heat I like.
Getting something sizeable may be a problem as a common stove would generate enough heat to keep the frost off it wouldn't have the capacity to make extra this does. What I want now is a big ole stove with a UL sticker.
Pic 2 is old.

 

[sberry]

I built it when I slammed in the door. There are a couple minor changes I would make in hindsight, a couple for ease of construction where it got bogged down in details but the thing eworked so good there wasn't real incentive to do anything else. I could have or probably sho9uld have taken a week and fixed it up with jacket and label and no one would have ever known. It needs approved air intake really.
I just got off the list and there is some stuff for sale, it needs to be waded thru for sure. The problem is a lot of it is a class smaller than I need.
I super hate to give up what I have. I have a lot of headroom where a guy could come along and possibly extend the radiant area of the top of the right unit without straying too far from the original design.

 

[Jackfre]

I think I'd refer you to hearth.com. If anyone knows, they will. I'll bet you have had that thing glowing red before
The EPA has dogged down the stoves to the point that I don't know what would be best for your UL listed unit. You will certainly not get the load capacity out of anything with a label on it that you get out of the old oil tank. It is nice to know that your insurance company cares so much for you!

 

[sberry]

No one fusses epa here but the tag is the deal. I agree, this will make 2 x the heat it needs and its one of the things about it. I should have remodeled it and had intended to, may have taken away some concern. Is the stove site another I have to join? I did find a couple Clist so far that look somewhat ok. One bigger one so far.

 

[Jackfre]

You have to register to post, but no fees. Those guys would know what is out there for you

 

[theoldwizard1]

I am SHOCKED that the insurance would insure any building heated even part-time by a non-UL listed stove !

 

[Ironhorse74]

Just so you know NFPA 211 has complete set of clearances for a non-listed appliance. Might want to show that to your insurance guy. I would be more concerned about the chimney than the stove.

For a big firebox probably want to look at Blaze King. None of them are going to be as big as the one you have.

 

[chrispyny]

I'd suggest an older UL coal stove. My friend who has since passed away built a LARGE garage wih high cielings for his 2 post 7k lb lift, and heated his garage with a coal/wood stove. Once that coal caught on, we would sweat like pigs in the deepest, coldest part of upstate NY winter. It was HOT.

 

[sberry]

Just so you know NFPA 211 has complete set of clearances for a non-listed appliance.

I was wondering about this. I could also remodel it to make appearance better and should have. I am not familiar with the fire code as electrical, anyone care to post the section up?
I read some of it somewhat so far and see why the chimney passed. Now need to find the clearances for stoves.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I know that older home built probably produced a ton of radiate heat as did my old stove. However, I have found the new Daka stove I bought late last Winter heated my shop more evenly. The nice thing about it was having a blower to help more the heat about.

Old stove on a skid ready to head out.


New Daka stove


The new stove is also so much more efficent too. I'm guessing that I might have enough wood as it is to last through the Winter but I'm going to cut one load and bring it home and leave some other wood stacked in the woods in case it's needed.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I was wondering about this. I could also remodel it to make appearance better and should have. I am not familiar with the fire code as electrical, anyone care to post the section up?

Here is a link to the older 2003 version of NFPA 211, it's aPDF file so it should print out ok.

https://woodheatstoves.com/free/NFPA211_old.pdf


Unless you have a membership to NFPA, I doubt you're going to find the current version online as they charge for it.

 

[Jackfre]

I guess insurance is different in how they view things in different parts of the country, but my experience with insurance companies is that trying to argue with them is like wrestling a pig in the mud. At some point you realize that they are having a good time. I will be really interested to hear if you can get the carrier to come around to accept your unit. Good luck!

 

[sberry]

I was just curious if anyone has had success with getting it to fly? I am going to look back over codes a bit . The fireman listed a page and his new setup does look better for sure. I have seen a couple of these for sale but they are on the small side. I don't mind something older, even if it needs repair. Size means a lot.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Mine is the smaller one that my local Menard's carried. They do make them for larger applications, a 3,000 sq ft and 4,000 sq ft rated stoves. Of course they are more money but if they are more efficent, that means less time cutting wood and doing other things.


Mine, 2,600 sq ft
http://www.menards.com/main/heating...28165847-c-12809.htm?tid=-8892026902231802379

3k sq ft
http://www.menards.com/main/heating...28166040-c-12809.htm?tid=-8892026902231802379

4k sq ft
http://www.menards.com/main/heating...28166666-c-12809.htm?tid=-8892026902231802379

 

[sberry]

I suspect my tank burner will generate 300K on wood, I run it about 1/2 and it generates about what a home/garage stove does when its burning wide open.
I whipped up on it when I did the building and had always intended on a remodel and to add ash pan. right now have a layer of 1 1/4 brick on bottom and up the sides as far as it sets. Another forum member did similar but added a new plate face which 2was a good idea and would have made it look a little less makeshift and had thought of replacing the sides with plate and adding ash pan.
Ashes are a bit of an issue but really hold heat well and don't have to be a fire restarter. My real problem is I don't need better but listed. I can make clearance no problem. I was going to change the draft anyway to automatic. Was going to close the old and put it all in the door.

 

[dartman003]

I am going through the same argument with my insurance co, the reason for requiring the UL listing is so they can go back and sue the stove manufactuer. That came straight from my agent.

 

[JPinSTL]

My swath of MO had huge hail payouts 2 yrs ago. I'm guessing the Ins Co is looking at ways to reduce their risk. I redid the shop roof and the old Class A was looking rough, so I bought new and went out through the sidewall. Insurance Co has random drive by inspections and the shiny new pipe must have caught their eye. Got a call from my agent (who is working with me on this) and she came out and took photos of the existing install. AmFam denied me because of non UL Listed stove.

I had a really nice factory made 1/4in plate steel stove similar to a Fisher from the early '80s in a separate walled off work room sitting on a concrete floor. I followed all required clearances and even had a heat shield on the metal wall and ceiling

All the Insurance Co cares about is the UL Listing and the Chimney Pipe is Class A. You are lucky they will even consider a wood burner in a detached building anymore. I'm going through this same process and my PoleBarn is a "workshop" and not a "garage" or they really freak out. If being insured is important to you (mortgage, etc) I'd just smile nicely and find a UL listed stove.

I'm now in the process of getting a used HotBlast 1500 Furnace put in place. It will make hot air, but not the quick warm up off the radiant I was used to. I'll eventually run some ducting and put some insulation in the roof to offset the stove change.

 

[dave67fd]

In response to the NFPA laws and as I know of was still in effect at 2012 and believe still is.
Some inspectors define "garage" differently. Maybe more sympathetic to a detached and other factors. If your insurance company is ok with it I guess your good. The concern with a solid fuel burner at floor level is gasoline and most other chemicals are heavier than air and ignition percentage increases greatly.

12.2.3 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any location where gasoline or any other flammable vapors or
gases are present.
12.2.4 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any garage.

 

[Ironhorse74]

In response to the NFPA laws and as I know of was still in effect at 2012 and believe still is.
Some inspectors define "garage" differently. Maybe more sympathetic to a detached and other factors. If your insurance company is ok with it I guess your good. The concern with a solid fuel burner at floor level is gasoline and most other chemicals are heavier than air and ignition percentage increases greatly.

12.2.3 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any location where gasoline or any other flammable vapors or
gases are present.
12.2.4 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any garage.

The discussion of what is a garage has been going on since before I first took the test in the eighties. Funny how Sberry's adjuster was only worried about the listing and not where it was located.

 

[sberry]

I went to hearth forum at my own risk just to see what popped up. I found a stove I liked but it was 3 or 4 hrs away and was sold, took 36 inch material, would probably been ideal. The only thing in whole inspection was this and I really knew better and should have done it ahead of time. I am a believer in the listing though, free open stove doesn't have quite the same issues as furnaces which can be problematic to safety.
He said they wanted to rid od barrel stoves etc and I suspect if I would have mod this ahead so it didn't look so worn it may have flew but I am looking for UL unit which is the simplest solution here.

 

[Highbeam]

I have about the largest UL/EPA woodstove you can buy in my shop. It isn't big enough. What you are looking for is a wood furnace as pictured above. Only a wood furnace can produce the BTU you want. They make them with very large fireboxes and modern furnaces are reasonably efficient.

To me, your oil tank is about as bad as any burn barrel. Some homemade thing. I'm sure it works great but I don't blame your insurance company a bit for telling you to get a real wood burner.

 

[desmato]

per the NFPA and the Michigan state inspector a "Garage" is anything that an automobile or other motor powered vehicle can be stored inside. I am an NFPA member and also heat my detached "garage" with a wood furnace.

The NFPA ruling changed in 2010 to not allow the "solid fuel" appliance in a garage for the same reasons another has already listed below:

The concern with a solid fuel burner at floor level is gasoline and most other chemicals are heavier than air and ignition percentage increases greatly.

12.2.3 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any location where gasoline or any other flammable vapors or
gases are present.
12.2.4 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any garage.

It's your shop, which I see a car sitting in, so you can take the gamble as I do. but if it burns to the ground due to any reason, you will likely be denied your claim unless you can prove the install was prior to 2010 as those are grandfathered in (like mine) AND it's a UL listed device or installed in accordance with the NFPA guidelines. ( i think UL is a sham, but covers your investments)

The membership to the NFPA is free or at least was when I got mine years ago.

Todd (Holly, MI)

BTW, I have an older Woodchuck (Made by Meyers, the snowplow folks) forced air furnace. burns wood or coal (I'm a blacksmith so that's nice) and heats my 1400 sq ft shop just fine. scour Craigslist and you'll find plenty of them for sale by folks that don't want the hassle of wood anymore.

 

[Ironhorse74]

per the NFPA and the Michigan state inspector a "Garage" is anything that an automobile or other motor powered vehicle can be stored inside. I am an NFPAer and also heat my detached "garage" with a wood furnace.

The NFPA ruling changed in 2010 to not allow the "solid fuel" appliance in a garage for the same reasons another has already listed below:

So I went back and looked at when I got my first mechanical license. It was February of 1988. Back then NFPA 211 did not allow a solid fuel appliance in a garage. What changed? Please cite which part of the NFPA 211 defines a garage. Michigan inspectors mean nothing to me in the Pacific Northwest.

 

[moodubs]

wow you guys have some fantastic stoves on here, I have just been given this in payment for some welding I have done for a mate, it's small compared to some you've got on here but very economical and produces almost double the calculation for what my 20' by 20' garage requires. My garage is more thermal efficient than my house ! well, a guys gotta keep the garage a nice temp and those beers cool, just cleaned it up and gotta get some flue pipe

 

[Karl's Garage]

wow you guys have some fantastic stoves on here, I have just been given this in payment for some welding I have done for a mate, it's small compared to some you've got on here but very economical and produces almost double the calculation for what my 20' by 20' garage requires. My garage is more thermal efficient than my house ! well, a guys gotta keep the garage a nice temp and those beers cool, just cleaned it up and gotta get some flue pipe

Very nice wood stove.

 

[moodubs]

why thanks

 

[TractorJeff]

Build a base that raises the bottom of the woodstove 18 inches off from the floor and no longer worry about gas fumes!

 

[desmato]

So I went back and looked at when I got my first mechanical license. It was February of 1988. Back then NFPA 211 did not allow a solid fuel appliance in a garage. What changed? Please cite which part of the NFPA 211 defines a garage. Michigan inspectors mean nothing to me in the Pacific Northwest.

You say this "Back then NFPA 211 did not allow a solid fuel appliance in a garage" then this "Please cite which part of the NFPA 211 defines a garage". Not trying to argue or start a fight, just that it's contradictory

Code 211 section 13.2.3 states "Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any location where gasoline or any other flammable vapors or gasses are present"
Code 211 section 13.2.4 states "Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any garage"

I think those 2 are self explanatory and ones that all inspectors typically use, but for argument sake let's look at the Merriam-webster dictionary for the definition of a "garage" : " 1- a building or part of a building in which a car, truck, etc., is kept.
2- a shop where vehicles are repaired"

section 13.2.3 can also apply to a paint shop, woodshop (think wood dust, stain/varnish), welding shop (though there are flames there already so,.... ?) etc, etc. Now, I do not know nor can I find the year that 13.2.3 & .4 were added into the NFPA section 211. but they are the last addendums.
The NFPA does not make laws but provides codes and standards on which local and state governments can build their codes from. just because the NFPA has a code or standard for a particular situation does not mean it's a law in your area. BUT they outline great and safe practices to follow !

Here is the link to the free access of NFPA codes/standards. http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/resources/free-access

Looking back in my notes I see that I somewhat misspoke. I was told by our state inspector in Lansing, (not some local guy) that this chapter was adopted into MI state building code effective Jan-1 2010 and that my installation was grandfathered in. So,..... I was conveying what I was told by "the man" but recalled it incorrectly. Sorry for missing that detail

As for Michigan inspectors, the O.P. is in Michigan so what rules/laws are in place here matters very much to him, if not to you.

Edit....
I also see in my notes that if the appliance is totally quarantined off and the only access to it, plus combustion air, is from an exterior entrance to said "garage", the appliance can be used. basically, build a sealed room inside your garage with the only acces from outside. this obviously doesn't work for a radiant heater. And again, this may only be a Michigan thing as I could not find it in the NFPA codes