Woodworking Fix....?

[moparfreak]

Sadly not a shop project question....

Been doing a full tear-out and remodel of our hallway full bath, and I'm building a custom between stud medicine cabinet made from solid maple. It fits between the studs in the wall, and will have a door with glass panel.

Anyways, was putting the frame together for the door, and had a bit of a snafu with the pocket screws, had a bit of a crack develop near the end grain of one of the corners (and to a lesser degree in the other corner). Once I noticed, I predrilled through the pocket hole for the other side and that prevented it from re-occuring but the damage is done. Its pretty obscure and won't be easy to see as it's the top corner of the door. It's designed to be inset door.

Question is, would you go ahead and fix this, and if so, how? It's already all glued up, are there any tricks to repair this sort of thing? Any advise is much appreciated...

 

[Corndoggeh]

Syringe with wood glue and then clamp it. If you can't find a syringe put a glob above the crack and push the glue into the crack and clamp, messier and with less glue going where it needs to but it will work.

 

[JMLangford]

Get some thin CA glue (super glue) and let it wick into the crack and the surrounding end grain and clamp the Do-do out of it!!

.

 

[shoot summ]

Since you have wood glue already I wood force wood glue into the crack. Put a blob on there, run your finger across it, keep working it into the crack. Sometimes some compressed air(used judiciously) will push the glue into the crack as well. Clean up the excess, clamp it, and you should be good.

 

[dogdog]

Get some thin CA glue (super glue) and let it wick into the crack and the surrounding end grain and clamp the Do-do out of it!!

.

^^^
2x vote this one, wood glue probably too thick to seep into... you needed thin CA glues not medium or thick ones..... I think hobby craft stores have them....

probably have to back out those screws before doing it.... didn't pre-drill ?

 

[jimreed2160]

Bummer. But most of my projects have a boo-boo somewhere. I just call it "charm". It lets others know that this piece was made my man and not machine. Anyway, I would back the screws out and drill a relief hole. The wood is swelling because it is under tension. Drilling the hole should reduce the tension and thus the swelling. Then I would replace the screw, put glue on the crack, and open it up slightly with a chisel. If you wiggle the crack, it will help gravity pull glue down into the opening. If you are using Titebond III, you should have about ten minutes of working time before it begins to get set. When you are satisfied that the crack is saturated, apply your clamp.

Your cabinet looks nice. Good luck.

 

[turbowoodworker]

Question and comments:

Did you use coarse or fine screws for the hard maple? Kreg recommends two types depending on hard or soft wood.

I agree with all of the above for repair but these cracks will not likely effect function or durability.

Are you painting or staining? Paint will cover those as is and you will never know it.

Jim has the right idea. Minor flaws make it yours and not Vietnamese. If I covered up all the flaws errors runs drips cracks mismatches in my work, I'd never finish a project.

Good job on the project!

 

[MoonRise]

The way I see it, you have three options:

1) Do nothing.

2) Redo the door frame.

3) Try to 'fix' the door frame. (usual approach is to try and get some adhesive into the crack and use it as 'filler' to fill the crack and to try and stabilize it from growing any bigger).

You glued the frame rails and stiles together?

What will the final wood finish be here? Paint or stain/varnish?

Just how 'solid' is the door frame? I'd go and kind of aggressively 'rack' that frame by hand and see just how solid it is. If it is not 'solid' (or breaks), then there is your answer. Option Number 2 and redo the frame (remember to predrill the pilot holes for the screws!).

If the door frame passes the 'rack' test, then your call as to which way to go.

Personally, those splits would really really bug me. And I would go for Option Number 2 and just redo the door frame. (door frame = constant use and I wouldn't want to get further into the project and then end up having to redo the door frame anyway, or get all done and install it and then the door frame breaks and you have to redo the door frame).

It doesn't look like you made the frame out of one continuous piece of wood anyway, so if you cut that frame apart you can re-cut the stiles and turn them into the new rails and then just cut two new stiles. All you are out is just a little time and the wood for two new stiles.

IMHO.

(I understand all about 'character' and such, but a pretty good sized crack in a door frame is a bit past 'character' to me and into the 'just redo it' category.)

 

[zak77]

It's early on in the build, the piece is pretty plain right now and there's not much to it, i'd just build another and pre-drill next time. Yeah it can be saved but if i'm going to put that much effort into something and i screw something up, if it's easy and cheap to replace i go that route. If it's a total ***** to replace then i'll think of ways to save it but in this case, i'd lose an hour or so and just start the door over from scratch.

 

[Ruthless53]

If it was me I would put as much CA in the crack i could and rub it with some of the maple saw dust. Once you sand it out it will stain closer to the natural wood than if you just left glue. I'd still probably use that corner as the top corner you cant see.

 

[moparfreak]

Thanks for all of the feedback and ideas. To answer a few questions:

1) It's going to get a very dark espresso stain and then a clearcoat of some sort (poly or lacquer). If I were going to paint it, I'd have made it of pine and probably wouldn't have had this problem occur.

2) Used fine thread Kreg screws. I traditionally don't pre-drill pilot holes through the pockets, and have made a number of similar type doors and frames this way out of Maple. What is a bit different here, is that I had to skootch (sp?) the pocket holes over a tad in order to make room for a 3/8" rabbet I will be soon routing for the glass panel to sit in, and I didn't want that rabbet to cut into the head of the screw. This put the pocket probably just a tad too close to the edge of the mating rail. My bad, lesson learned and I'll be drilling pilot holes from now on in any hardwoods I use.

3) In "racking" the frame, it does feel fairly solid. Obviously I can make it break if I apply enough force but I have no desire to do so...

4) I feel pretty strongly that this is still a good frame and usable piece, so I don't want to disassemble and remake. I know that my wife (for whom of course directs these types of projects) already says to totally just move on and be done w/ it, it'll never or barely ever be seen. The other thing to note is this is in the upper left corner, hinge side, and being an inset door it's just about the least likely place to see it, which is good I suppose.

I'm liking the idea of putting in some CA mixed w/ some of the maple shavings, and forcing into the crack then clamping like hell. I'll have to see if the superglue I have is "runny" enough to work in there effectively but I would think it is.

 

[Ruthless53]

Thanks for all of the feedback and ideas. To answer a few questions:

1) It's going to get a very dark espresso stain and then a clearcoat of some sort (poly or lacquer). If I were going to paint it, I'd have made it of pine and probably wouldn't have had this problem occur.

2) Used fine thread Kreg screws. I traditionally don't pre-drill pilot holes through the pockets, and have made a number of similar type doors and frames this way out of Maple. What is a bit different here, is that I had to skootch (sp?) the pocket holes over a tad in order to make room for a 3/8" rabbet I will be soon routing for the glass panel to sit in, and I didn't want that rabbet to cut into the head of the screw. This put the pocket probably just a tad too close to the edge of the mating rail. My bad, lesson learned and I'll be drilling pilot holes from now on in any hardwoods I use.


3) In "racking" the frame, it does feel fairly solid. Obviously I can make it break if I apply enough force but I have no desire to do so...

4) I feel pretty strongly that this is still a good frame and usable piece, so I don't want to disassemble and remake. I know that my wife (for whom of course directs these types of projects) already says to totally just move on and be done w/ it, it'll never or barely ever be seen. The other thing to note is this is in the upper left corner, hinge side, and being an inset door it's just about the least likely place to see it, which is good I suppose.

I'm liking the idea of putting in some CA mixed w/ some of the maple shavings, and forcing into the crack then clamping like hell. I'll have to see if the superglue I have is "runny" enough to work in there effectively but I would think it is.

I like using the gel as much as anything. Seems to grab the sawdust better. Ill put a bead along the crack and then with glove massage it in and sprinkle and repeat 3-4 times. Just make sure to wipe all the excess around the crack before it dries and then sand it pretty good after and it should be as good as new and not show too much. Any excess glue in the pours of the wood will block stain so sand off the build up and then keep going a little deeper to get fresh wood on that side.

 

[rlitman]

Thin CA will certainly wick into that crack. But it will also wick into the wood, and may give you difficulty in getting stain to soak into those spots. Just don't get it all over the place.

While I advocate using sawdust in wood glue to fill stuff, I would not rub it into this crack, or rub sawdust into CA. Rubbing anything into CA is asking to glue your fingers together, and rubbing sawdust into this crack will keep the crack from closing.

If it weren't already assembled, or didn't feel all that solid, I'd tell you to take it all apart, break it, and glue it with yellow wood glue and a lot of clamping. Split wood will glue back together invisibly.

But since it seems to be not worthwhile to break it apart, here's what I'd do.

1) CAREFULLY allow thin CA to work into the crack (this is why the bottles have a needle applicator).
2) Slowly back out the screws that caused the crack (it may partly close at this point), and apply more CA if it soaked everything up already.
3) Clamp the crack fully closed
note: thin CA is unlikely to squeeze out, as it soaks in so easily, but if it does, wipe up the excess
4) After the glue has had at least 24 hours to dry (DO NOT BELIEVE the drying times that are on bottles of CA*), take off the clamps
5) Re-drill the holes.
6) Blunt the tip of the screw by grinding off a little (a pointed tip is more apt to cause splittng)
7) Put a clamp back on, to support the wood
8) Put the screws back in
9) Cross your fingers as you remove the clamp for the last time.

* CA dry times are based on optimal conditions in shallow joints. In your deep joint, it takes time for it to fully cure all the way inside, even if you treat the exterior with Zip Kicker.

 

[MoonRise]

Thanks for all of the feedback and ideas. To answer a few questions:

1) It's going to get a very dark espresso stain and then a clearcoat of some sort (poly or lacquer). If I were going to paint it, I'd have made it of pine and probably wouldn't have had this problem occur.

Hmm, dark stain, you say? The 'exposed' glue line in the crack will not accept the stain and will be a glaring (IMHO) line of white/light in the dark stain.

So, you can try and get some 'thin' glue down into the crack (like I mentioned, to 'fill' and try and stabilize the crack) and then stain it and varnish it and then go and put some cover-up the exposed glue line with some scratch-repair putty stick stuff.

2) Used fine thread Kreg screws. I traditionally don't pre-drill pilot holes through the pockets, and have made a number of similar type doors and frames this way out of Maple. What is a bit different here, is that I had to skootch (sp?) the pocket holes over a tad in order to make room for a 3/8" rabbet I will be soon routing for the glass panel to sit in, and I didn't want that rabbet to cut into the head of the screw. This put the pocket probably just a tad too close to the edge of the mating rail. My bad, lesson learned and I'll be drilling pilot holes from now on in any hardwoods I use.

Yup, drill pilot holes in 'hard' woods, to lessen the tendency to split.

3) In "racking" the frame, it does feel fairly solid. Obviously I can make it break if I apply enough force but I have no desire to do so...

If you 'rack' (flex) the frame a bit and it feels solid AND the cracks don't open up at all while you have flexed the frame, then the frame is probably OK (but I still would personally probably just redo it.)

4) I feel pretty strongly that this is still a good frame and usable piece, so I don't want to disassemble and remake. I know that my wife (for whom of course directs these types of projects) already says to totally just move on and be done w/ it, it'll never or barely ever be seen. The other thing to note is this is in the upper left corner, hinge side, and being an inset door it's just about the least likely place to see it, which is good I suppose.

I'm liking the idea of putting in some CA mixed w/ some of the maple shavings, and forcing into the crack then clamping like hell. I'll have to see if the superglue I have is "runny" enough to work in there effectively but I would think it is.

Most CA adhesives are not any good for gaps (or crack filling).

Plain yellow wood glue can fill cracks a little bit. It looks like **** when the stain highlights that wide glue/crack line though. Hence the having to fill the crack a bit with the wooden scratch-repair putty stick or similar after staining and varnishing.

As to getting some adhesive into the crack and the "clamping like hell", not really what you should do IMHO.

The wood split because you put a steel 'wedge' (the screw) into the wood and the wedge then split the grain line open. With the steel screw still in place, the wood can't really 'move' back into its original (unsplit) position. Clamping it hard will just crush the wood onto the steel screw and maybe end up 'telegraphing' that dent up onto the surface.



With all the fussing and what not, I still think it will be almost a wash on time and effort to just remake your frame at this point.

Please post some follow ups on how the project turns out.

 

[moparfreak]

Moonrise / Rlitman,

Agreed, I'll remove the screw prior to repair so that the clamp can close that crack back up properly, then once everything's set, re-drill pilot holes.

I have a number of crack repair putty stick shades on hand so I think even if the crack does highlight a bit lighter than the rest of the piece I can make that just about go away before the final clearcoat goes on.

I'll look at it closer tonight to see if I can get something going on it. I have some time to wait for the glass to be ordered anyways, so it'll probably a week before I am ready to stain it. Plus, tile's going into the bathroom today, which means I have trim, caulking, toilet and vanity + finish plumbing to put in over the next few days first.

 

[MoonRise]

With your glued up **** joint between the rail and the stile, the crack may already be locked into position.

Even when you remove the pocket screws on the 'damaged' joint area, I think that your glued up **** joint is still going to keep the crack open right there.

But, I'm basing all this on a few pictures over the Net.

Did I mention that I think you will be ahead or pretty close on time and effort to just remake your door frame?

 

[trainer]

Personally I think the pocket screws are a bigger eyesore than the cracks.

If you decide to redo it, it would be a great time to try a mortise & tenon, tongue & groove or a lap joint.

 

[Milton Shaw]

If you use super glue, do use wax paper or something between your clamp and the wood or you might not get the clamp off. Other than that most of these repairs are correct.

 

[rlitman]

With your glued up **** joint between the rail and the stile, the crack may already be locked into position.

Even when you remove the pocket screws on the 'damaged' joint area, I think that your glued up **** joint is still going to keep the crack open right there.

But, I'm basing all this on a few pictures over the Net.

Did I mention that I think you will be ahead or pretty close on time and effort to just remake your door frame?

That's a chance. At this point, I don't think it will close on its own by just removing the screws (like it would have before it was glued together), but my guess (also from just looking at pictures on the internet), is that you can possibly force it closed after the screws are out. Still, I'd try to get the glue in there before removing the screws.

I completely agree that CA is not appropriate for gap filling, and that trying to squeeze it shut with the screws still wedging the crack open is a very bad idea.

And yes, dark stain will be troublesome if the gap is left. Any glue filled gap is a bad thing, from the perspective of stain, as well as strength.

 

[Superbec]

If it was me ... I would start a bbq with that cause I'm no woodworker

 

[JMLangford]

Personally I think the pocket screws are a bigger eyesore than the cracks.

If you decide to redo it, it would be a great time to try a mortise & tenon, tongue & groove or a lap joint.

^^^^ This ^^^^

If you are planning to redo it.....this is an excellent suggestion!

Builds dem woodworkin' skills......


.

 

[moparfreak]

Quick update, removed the screws and played around with the joint a bit and it was closing up pretty good w/ clamp assist. I opened it up a bit to get CA down through the crack as much as I could, and then clamped it real tight. Letting it sit for a day then will work on scraping / sanding the end-grain there to clean up the surface and see what I have to work with. Then I'll pre-drill and re-install the screws. Stain goes on sometime late next week probably so I'll post some picture.

Thanks all for the advice on guidance. It's great to have a good resource for these little shop situations!

 

[rlitman]

Personally I think the pocket screws are a bigger eyesore than the cracks.

If you decide to redo it, it would be a great time to try a mortise & tenon, tongue & groove or a lap joint.

A bridle joint would be more appropriate. A mitered bridle joint if you're feeling adventurous.

Quick update, removed the screws and played around with the joint a bit and it was closing up pretty good w/ clamp assist. I opened it up a bit to get CA down through the crack as much as I could, and then clamped it real tight. Letting it sit for a day then will work on scraping / sanding the end-grain there to clean up the surface and see what I have to work with. Then I'll pre-drill and re-install the screws. Stain goes on sometime late next week probably so I'll post some picture.

Thanks all for the advice on guidance. It's great to have a good resource for these little shop situations!

Glad to hear it. Let's hope it doesn't break elsewhere or re-break when you remove the clamp tomorrow.

 

[56vette461]

moparfreak,

you are in the most common spot for using oak in cabinet making..It's looks great, reasonably priced and a PITA when it decides to split. I agree with all the above remedies as being possibilities, and they do work.

Couple of things I do when I make the repairs to split end gaps is to thin some yellow glue with water, just enough to make it run into the crack without just flushing out the sides. A hobby syringe is great for that purpose and it cleans for reuse. Clamp it and let it set until set completely. Re-drill your hole, blunt the tip of the screw and then use paraffin wax to "lube" the screw for easy replacement. The threads will follow the original track and tend not to bottom out or create a new split. I always keep paraffin around when working with hard woods for just that purpose.

Good luck.

 

[rlitman]

I was taught to lube screws with a bar of soap, but yeah, wax should work just as well too.

YES, it may seem counter intuitive, but blunting nails and screws prevents splitting.
A sharp point will worm it's way through the fibers, causing a split. A blunt point will crush the fibers it pushes out of the way.

 

[brianh]

Ca glue and use a c clamp to close the crack wrap some plastic wrap on before clamping to not glue the clamp to the door.

I have done many fixes with this method you will not even see the crack after sanding

 

[MoonRise]

I was taught to lube screws with a bar of soap, but yeah, wax should work just as well too.

YES, it may seem counter intuitive, but blunting nails and screws prevents splitting.
A sharp point will worm it's way through the fibers, causing a split. A blunt point will crush the fibers it pushes out of the way.

Soap is (at least a little) hydroscopic (attracts water).

Use wax. A little nub of paraffin wax, a candle stub, some other solid wax, etc. Not furniture-type wax (paste wax) though, that (usually) has some solvents in it that you don't need or want here.

 

[rlitman]

Soap is (at least a little) hydroscopic (attracts water)...

I'll have to disagree with you here. Soap, in the store bought form, is azeotropic. If soap were hydroscopic, it would turn from solid to liquid on the shelf. I have many bars of soap in the linen closet, none in well sealed containers, and I have never observed this phenomenon, even in bars that are well over a decade old. Now, if you were able to prepare an anhydrous form of soap (I'd love to see the MSDS on that...), it would pull water from the air, but only until it reaches an equilibrium. In any case, soap that is stored in the same interior humidity conditions as the wood it will be used on, will not gain or lose any water to or from the wood it is in contact with, as both have reached equilibrium with their environment.

Soap is no more hydroscopic than shellac, which will also strongly pull water from the air in its anhydrous form. Then again, so does cellulose (what wood is mostly made out of).

You are correct that furniture and paste wax often contain solvents. The solvents make the wax more easily spreadable. I'm not really sure if they'd make a difference or not in this use, though automotive wax often contains silicones, and other stuff that you'd surely want to keep away from raw wood that you plan on finishing. A candle would be fine (whether it be paraffin based, or tallow based if you're old school). So would a hunk of beeswax, or a dab of lard (another old school solution to this problem) or suet.

Ca glue and use a c clamp to close the crack wrap some plastic wrap on before clamping to not glue the clamp to the door.

I have done many fixes with this method you will not even see the crack after sanding

I like the plastic wrap idea.

I have a few non-stick teflon coated cookie sheets in the shop that have been retired from kitchen use. I use them for mixing epoxy (it comes right off when dry), but also for glue ups. Also, some HDPE cutting boards for similar purposes.

 

[WoodsTruck]

I came across a video on U-tube a while back of an old guy that was fixing wooden acoustic guitars. He used the small suction cups from window hanging stuff as a sort of plunger to push glue down into cracks. He was using yellow wood glue then "plunging" it, let it dry, then use a sharp chisel to shave off the excess after allowing any to wick down in the crack as it cured.

I thought it was a slick trick instead of trying to use a syringe.