Work/Living Space, ways around zoning

[cash68]

Hey, currently renting out a large warehouse/shop space with my roommate, and we're planning on putting a small apartment inside it... the landlord is sort of a dont ask dont tell type of guy, but what about fire marshals coming around? Should I just disguise the bedrooms with something that says "storage", or what? Either way, going to try to get away with this due to how much money I would save not renting another place.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Used RV?

Just a thought.

Phil

 

[6768rogues]

I did a similar thing. They cannot come in unannounced without a search warrant. I figured I would make the bed disappear and call it a break room.

 

[danfromsyr]

Murphey bed?
Airstream trailer?
VW camper (bed room modules, and veratile and cool to own)
I know of 2 mechanics who live & drive (not just on blocks) their Vanagon campers when not working. it's the smallest footprint at only 15ft bumper to bumper with a living room & upstairs full size bed.


but really, a Loft/mezannine bedroom should be fairly low key.
primarily get a PO box, don't recieve personal mail directly to the shop.. not that they can read/inspect your mail.

 

[jeffk14]

I'm assuming you're operating a licensed business out of the warehouse space? If that's the case, you may have inspection problems but if it's just a hobby rental, I don't see why any inspectors would be sniffing around. I've always liked the idea of a building that's primarily shop space with small living quarters thrown in as an afterthought. But alas, wife, children, zoning and suburbia proved that it was not to be. No regrets though. Very thankful for my family.

 

[december45]

the used rv sounds like a good idea, the configurations are limitless.... if you got sewer, water and electric the rv should be no problem and probably the cheapest, low profile way of doing it. shut the door to the rv and lock it... "just storing it"....UNLESS you need the floor space and were thinking of putting the living quarters on an upper level.
the idea of renting a mail box is a good one.

 

[wingcarenvy]

The fire department has the right to inspect any business address. Its a law as a matter of fact. They do have to make it as convenient as possible for you though. The reason the fire department doesn't want you living in your industrial unit is that the industrial units have more hazards and aren't very safe for living and makes it really risky for firefighters when a fire breaks. Most fire department are aggressive in fighting business fire but when it comes to rescues they will go to extraordinary measures to save a life and will risk many lives to save one. The other problem with living in an industrial unit is that the fire department will assume that there is no one inside at night. You're screwed if your trapped and expecting to rescued. Just my 2 cents. If you lived in the unit next to mine, I would take exception since your more likely to start a fire and ruin my poo. Not cool.

 

[toymn6366]

I got a buddy that built a apartment in his dads truck shop after his dad died and his old lady kicked him out.It is really nice about 1400 sf but we don't have that many zoning problems here.

 

[SPDMETL]

Safety-or the lack of it. Egress...windows, doors ? I'd hate to DIAF inside an RV, inside a building. Now if you have an upstairs area you can escape from, have at it.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I did a similar thing. They cannot come in unannounced without a search warrant. I figured I would make the bed disappear and call it a break room.

We're talking about FD not police. If your locality requires inspections on a regular basis, it'll be in the city ordinances. I have never heard of an FD needing a search warrant.

 

[logical]

I did a similar thing. They cannot come in unannounced without a search warrant. I figured I would make the bed disappear and call it a break room.

I love it when people suggest that the hurdle of due process in being discovered makes it OK to break the law.....It's OK to do it because they can't legally catch me. Why not grow some pot in the back room while you're at it....oh wait, that's actually a good idea.

If they suspected you were living there and really wanted to do something about it...don't you think it would be pretty easy to gather enough evidence watching the place for a few hours to get a judge to Ok a search?

 

[Old Moparz]

The fire department has the right to inspect any business address. Its a law as a matter of fact. They do have to make it as convenient as possible for you though. The reason the fire department doesn't want you living in your industrial unit is that the industrial units have more hazards and aren't very safe for living and makes it really risky for firefighters when a fire breaks. Most fire department are aggressive in fighting business fire but when it comes to rescues they will go to extraordinary measures to save a life and will risk many lives to save one. The other problem with living in an industrial unit is that the fire department will assume that there is no one inside at night. You're screwed if your trapped and expecting to rescued. Just my 2 cents. If you lived in the unit next to mine, I would take exception since your more likely to start a fire and ruin my poo. Not cool.

This makes a lot of sense arguing against living in the space, but I have a feeling people will do it no matter what.

Heck, my own Mother did it when she ran her own business years ago. She had just sold her house & shared an apartment with her sister for a few months while looking for her own place. She told me how she was planning to build an apartment in the warehouse, so I suggested that she rent one of those temporary jobsite trailers & park it in the warehouse. She liked that it wasn't permanent & did just that.

I would think that if you set an apartment up no different than an office that had a kitchen, bathroom, etc., & followed all the safety requirements including windows & exits, you'd be reasonably safe. I'm not saying it's right, but you do need to think about worse case scenarios.

 

[Zeke]

Seen it done many times and usually doesn't last forever. Someone will call eventually. Cars parked outside, visitors after hours, noise from other than shop noises like music or TV, BBQ smells at 8pm on a summer night will all get you busted. Too many goody 2-shoes out there.

That is unless you're willing to live in an unusual manner (or would that be manor? )

 

[smalltruck]

Depending on the regs where you live it will be a pain. Some areas have no problem with owner occupancy in the building but will not allow rental units. Others will say no living quarters but will allow a "security guard" living space.

Since you are renting right now go to the zoning commission and find out what is allowed in the various zones. What are the limits in the type of zoning in your area. This is super important.

Headaches even if they say yes. If you are running a business out of the shop look for them to put air quality and management regs in front of you. That gets spendy fast. If the living quarters or office space opens into the shop area you will have to do a positive pressure environment so that no fumes get into that area. This one depends on your regs and how you will use it.

How does that property get taxed on the property tax roles? If you use it for storage of personal stuff can you get the rate reduced?

Insurance, remember the zoning regs that are important? If you mislead the the insurance company about what you are doing they don't have to pay a dime in case of any loss. A simple slip and fall where you've said one thing and someone else says another can mean you're toast.

It's very doable but cost effective is another story. Where I live in Minnesota I can do this in a class C commercial but not heavy industrial. Look around at commercial property and the wide variations on buildings with apartments over them is very hodge podge. You will have to spend time on research on zoning variances as well as the insurance options. Also find out who the city commissioner for the area you are looking at is. They can help with zoning problems, sometimes

 

[jeepmattb]

I lived in a work loft in downtown Cleveland for four years. The landlord didn't care and I had a crazy amount of space for less than $500 a month. I never once had a fire inspection. But was always prepared to. I did have the gas and water department come to check on pipes. I then flipped the matress up against the bedroom wall and put cardboard boxes in front.

You'd be quite surprised that most city workers really don't care. They want to get in and out. They make calls all day and do not want to stay past their shift if they don't have to.

In my kitchen I made cabinets with casters, everything could be rolled and butted up to eachother to give the illusion that it was a large work table. The bathroom and laundry room was never a mess either.

Most workshops have a break area so do not be afraid if your couch and tv are out, act like it was always supposed to be there. Do keep projects out in the open just for show...anyone visting will see that you are actually working and it isn't just a cool place to bring young girls over.

There are problems though with landlord issues. Any improvements I made to the space gave me a discount. When he turned the management over to his sister in law she wanted to raise the rent. She threatened to have most of the tenenants kicked out for living in an zoned work space. We in turn called inspectors on ourselves and had the city point out the multiple violations the building had. The problem with care free landlords is that they are more often than not carefree about everything...letting electrical systems and fire protection go. Be careful.

The ground level shop two tenenants, one a boat mechanic and the other was a sculptor, both decided it was easier to buy old RVs and use those as living quarters rather than drywall a room.

Make sure whenever you do make a room you do it to code. Make sure your sprinklers are unobstructed otherwise the inspectors will cite you and come around more often.

 

[KELLHAMMER]

I am always fascinated that people are so willing to break the laws. Lets say with permission from your landlord you build yourself a little residence in the building. Then you accidentally burn the place down, say from smoking in bed. Your landlord is at risk. Assuming the local zoning board says it was an illegal residence the landlord's property insurance company may decide to not pay the claim. He's screwed and your screwed because the landlord may decide to sue you for his loss. In my area, commercial properties can have a tenant quarters for a caretaker. Do the research for your area, just cause you can beat the system doesn't mean its a good idea.

 

[Steve from Socal]

I know a couple of people who live in unusual places. The first has lived in a small industrial unit for over 20 years. He has a loft with a bedroom and bath, never has an issue and he likely saved the complex when a wood shop a few doors down had a fire over a weekend.

The next is somebody who lives in an airplane hangar. That space is inspected every year and he goes through a whole ritual getting ready for the inspections.

Both of these people enjoy their living situations but, they live under the radar so to speak.

Steve

 

[jeepmattb]

I am always fascinated that people are so willing to break the laws. Lets say with permission from your landlord you build yourself a little residence in the building. Then you accidentally burn the place down, say from smoking in bed. Your landlord is at risk. Assuming the local zoning board says it was an illegal residence the landlord's property insurance company may decide to not pay the claim. He's screwed and your screwed because the landlord may decide to sue you for his loss. In my area, commercial properties can have a tenant quarters for a caretaker. Do the research for your area, just cause you can beat the system doesn't mean its a good idea.

Kellhammer brings up a very good point that i forgot to mention. Other people. When I lived on the third floor the fourth floor tenant was a stoner DJ who threw parties often. Also upstairs were two metal sculptors who welded and kept oxy and mig rigs...the danger for a fallen tank or sparks igniting the dust from the across the hall woodshop were great. Aside from the gangland warzone on the street level it was a big factor on why i left. The art students who had a gallery in their space threw too many out of hand parties and kids would chuck firecrackers and beer bottles of the roof. Not a good mix when drug dealers "worked" the corner directly below.

The charm and convience can wear off quick. The zoning laws are there actually to protect you.

 

[dirttracker18]

I know a guy that built an awesome apartment over his body shop. Great place. Eventually someone called it in and he was told he could not live there.

A lot of wasted money, plus fines for no permits or occupancy. Plus they could have shut the business down until the apartment was removed. They didn't, but they could have.

Something to think about.

 

[jeffk14]

Seen it done many times and usually doesn't last forever. Someone will call eventually. Cars parked outside, visitors after hours, noise from other than shop noises like music or TV, BBQ smells at 8pm on a summer night will all get you busted. Too many goody 2-shoes out there.

That is unless you're willing to live in an unusual manner (or would that be manor? )

Very true. There are even some in this very thread. I have zero respect for the law when it goes beyond right and wrong, how you treat your neighbor, etc and enters into bureaucratic "regga-LAYshuns".
If it were me and I wanted to do it, I just would. Period. The only caveat is that I'd arrange it in such a way (travel trailer, camper, etc) that if and when some ****-brained do-gooder turned me in, I wouldn't lose a ton of money when I had to move out.

 

[A_Pmech]

The next is somebody who lives in an airplane hangar. That space is inspected every year and he goes through a whole ritual getting ready for the inspections.

Steve,

This made me laugh, because I know a guy like that. He calls his living area the "pilot's lounge". Somehow, he manages to get away with it.

 

[m289271]

Should there be a catastrophe ie: fire, explosion, requiring an insurance investigation the fur will fly. Insurance companies don't like being defrauded, which is what this would be. If someone has set up a permanent residence, there will be plenty of evidence.
The likely scenario is the insurance co not going to pay the claim, or if someone was seriously hurt, the owner could be looking at criminal charges.

 

[djmartins]

Insurance companies don't like being defrauded, which is what this would be.

Yeah, like they get paid every month for insurance but when you file a claim they refuse to pay....

 

[KrisKustomPaint]

Yeah, like they get paid every month for insurance but when you file a claim they refuse to pay....

Don't pay for insurance. No fraud issues, cost effective, problem solved.

 

[iagsxr]

Should there be a catastrophe ie: fire, explosion, requiring an insurance investigation the fur will fly.

Wouldn't have to be that big a catastrophe. Say tennant's GF falls down the steps in the middle of the night breaking her leg. Her health ins has the right to go after whomever they feel liable. In this case the landlord.

Landlord's ins says, Why was she there in the middle of the night? Oh they live there... Sorry dude you're on your own, and we're dropping all of your coverage.

As a landlord no way I'd let that scenerio happen. And your landlord may not be aware of all the ramifications. So say you spend time and money making living quarters and his ins agent becomes aware and says no way. Don't think you'll be out?

 

[Grumpy365]

Should there be a catastrophe ie: fire, explosion, requiring an insurance investigation the fur will fly. Insurance companies don't like being defrauded, which is what this would be. If someone has set up a permanent residence, there will be plenty of evidence.
The likely scenario is the insurance co not going to pay the claim, or if someone was seriously hurt, the owner could be looking at criminal charges.

I would be willing to bet, if the catastrophy was not a direct result of the living arrangement, I don't think they could deny a claim.

Since the renter doesn't have insurance and the owner is unaware, there is no INTENT to defraud anyone.

 

[fireguy]

This makes a lot of sense arguing against living in the space, but I have a feeling people will do it no matter what.

Heck, my own Mother did it when she ran her own business years ago. She had just sold her house & shared an apartment with her sister for a few months while looking for her own place. She told me how she was planning to build an apartment in the warehouse, so I suggested that she rent one of those temporary jobsite trailers & park it in the warehouse. She liked that it wasn't permanent & did just that.

I would think that if you set an apartment up no different than an office that had a kitchen, bathroom, etc., & followed all the safety requirements including windows & exits, you'd be reasonably safe. I'm not saying it's right, but you do need to think about worse case scenarios.

you are mistaken, she lived in the watchmens quarters.

 

[Berserker]

I love it when people suggest that the hurdle of due process in being discovered makes it OK to break the law.....It's OK to do it because they can't legally catch me. Why not grow some pot in the back room while you're at it....

First I say screw the government telling me what to do. Use your own moral compass, and be ready for the outcome.

In this case, getting kicked out and needing some where to sleep that night, could be an issue.

But we are talking about sleeping in a building, which is only illegal because of the definition of the building.

 

[Berserker]

Wouldn't have to be that big a catastrophe. Say tennant's GF falls down the steps in the middle of the night breaking her leg.

Well then I hope she keeps quite, while I go back to sleep.

 

[Rosco]

I used to rent a large shop in Texas. We had a guy who lived in his and we all pitched in to help him fix it up. He was our 24 hour security guard and also a great second hand pulling a motor at 2 a.m.

We bought him beer, groceries etc. because he made the place a lot safer. Not much difference between living there and sleeping there when working thru the night.

 

[logical]

First I say screw the government telling me what to do. Use your own moral compass, and be ready for the outcome.

In this case, getting kicked out and needing some where to sleep that night, could be an issue.

But we are talking about sleeping in a building, which is only illegal because of the definition of the building.

I'm not even saying I'd do any different. My point was that it's hardly reasonable to expect a cop to honor the need for a warrant if the attitude is "screw laws".

Personally, I like houses.

 

[OldHarley]

The fire department has the right to inspect any business address. Its a law as a matter of fact. They do have to make it as convenient as possible for you though. The reason the fire department doesn't want you living in your industrial unit is that the industrial units have more hazards and aren't very safe for living and makes it really risky for firefighters when a fire breaks. Most fire department are aggressive in fighting business fire but when it comes to rescues they will go to extraordinary measures to save a life and will risk many lives to save one. The other problem with living in an industrial unit is that the fire department will assume that there is no one inside at night. You're screwed if your trapped and expecting to rescued. Just my 2 cents. If you lived in the unit next to mine, I would take exception since your more likely to start a fire and ruin my poo. Not cool.

Very well written response. Not talking about inspectors or police, just about your safety, and firefighters who need your cooperation to help them protect YOU.

 

[cash68]

Some more information:

I'm renting. I know the landlord, and he doesn't really care, it's more of a don't ask don't tell type situation. I own a business, but it is currently shuttered, as I got a full time job somewhere else. I would like to use this space to work on my cars, flip cars, and do small scale production of stuff. Nothing major, just all "on the side" type stuff. My argument is that I have a permanent address elsewhere, so who cares if I sleep there a few nights a week.

Currently, there are NOT sprinklers. There are fire extinguishers. I live by "it's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission". Too many people like saying "no" because they feel empowered.

That said, I am planning on having a pool table, small kitchen, couch, and fridge. The plan was to put living areas above that, and just throw a label that says "storage" on the doors.

If someone snitches, what happens? Do I just remove the beds? Or do I get fined? In any event, rent would be REALLY cheap if I only had to rent this place.

 

[iagsxr]

If someone snitches, what happens? Do I just remove the beds? Or do I get fined? In any event, rent would be REALLY cheap if I only had to rent this place.

That all depends on the municipality, how it's zoned, who *******, what else you're doing there, your inspector, and how half-*** a job you do with safety stuff. No one here can answer those questions.

I absolutely don't see the up side for your landlord. It's a CYA thing.

 

[sberry]

My situation is rural, lived above my office for 12 yrs or more. I own my building so its different. But it was super convenient and if I needed to do it to keep overhead down I would.

 

[bczygan]

Your neighbors will know. Impossible to keep it a secret. Keep it low profile anyway. A break room with a couch that folds out to a bed is the least obtrusive. Blackout curtains for at night. Come and go during regular hours. Park inside so no one knows if you are there or not. Don't make noise after hours. Use wireless headphones for TV or stereo. Don't answer the door after hours (Use a security camera to see who is there). Always lock the doors after hours.
Guy next to us is a tow truck operator who bought, rehabbed and sold cars from his shop. Very irregular hours and no reason for customers to be in his shop except when he sold a car. Could never tell when he was there unless he wanted you to know, or his big flatbed was in the lot. But we all knew he lived there. Keep a few girlfriends and spend nights at their places to mix it up!

 

[cash68]

Yeah, the place I have has no windows whatsover, and plenty of indoor parking, so hopefully nobody will notice.

 

[Falcon67]

If the landlord carries insurance, I'll bet it's building and not content. Liability might be an issue. Locally in the big town, with a zoning waiver you can have a "night watchman" living on commercial property. My FIL lived in his commercial space for a few years, but on the list of local issues in our small town he was not very far up the list. So he was left alone for the most part. He also owned the building outright. These deals are all different - if you own the building, do what every you want to get away with. Since someone else owns it, there's trouble waiting IMHO.

Playing cool - you could be under the radar for ever. Get the buds over, start BS'n around, maybe somebody brings friends, etc, etc - unless strict rules are set you'll be on the radar shortly. Been there, seen that first hand. They WILL find out and it won't take much effort on the city's part.

 

[MW1975]

I would be concerned about a secondery means of egress lets say there was a fire in the the gararge could you get out without going throught the gararge. Even if the secondery egress is out a window in the apartment / living area. Just my opinion.

 

[cbattles]

I have zero respect for the law when it goes beyond right and wrong, how you treat your neighbor, etc and enters into bureaucratic "regga-LAYshuns".

Agreed 100%.

How about, if his girlfriend falls down the stairs, she admits that she's clumsy instead of blaming the staircase?

And if he's injured in a fire because he didn't have the foresight to plan an escape route, acquire an extinguisher, or act quickly enough, we consider it Darwinism instead of "lack of egress"?

My dad used to own some apartments, and I built a handrail for the basement steps that you could have hung a truck from (and was easy to grasp). The building inspector argued that it didn't meet code because it wasn't round. This was after him not knowing what a window sash was called.

Public safety concerns, like codes, etc. should be, for the most part, limited to ensuring that people can make an educated, informed decision, about their well being.