Working Hot

[bczygan]

I know this has been discussed before, and the general advice is not to.

But if you are going to do it, what precautions do you take? Obviously standing in a pan of water or grabbing a water pipe isn't good practice, but what is?

I just replaced an outlet under my bed which had shorted and had a loose connection and had broken apart. Did it by carefully working each of the 4 wires off and then onto the new outlet. Just a little spark as the last connection was made. Worked with one hand as much as possible and only held the outlet by the plastic parts. Now the cat can't turn things off by just brushing against the extension cord.

Bill

 

[BillK]

I just replaced an outlet under my bed which had shorted and had a loose connection and had broken apart. Did it by carefully working each of the 4 wires off and then onto the new outlet. Bill

Why would you even want to do that when you can just turn the power off first ????? I have worked in hot panels many times installing breakers and new circuits etc, but would never dream of working on a hot outlet like that.

 

[Mustang51js]

I work on things hot every day,basically just need to watch what you touch and use the right tools. Sometimes if the house is empty and I am changing a bunch of outlets I will kill the power just to do it quick. But for one outlet I leave power on. Key is taking black wires off first and putting them back on last.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Every switch and receptacle in my house is labeled for what Circuit Breaker operates it. While that same CB might work some rather odd combinations of stuff, and I might have to reset a clock, I just go ahead and trip the breaker and do the work cold.

Charles

 

[KRB52]

If you really, really insist on doing something like this, why not take a few moments and put on a pair of latex gloves. At least they give some insulating properties.

 

[tshetter]

Yea, screw that. Work it cold. Any of that "you're a man, work it hot" **** is just that, ****.

Did residential electrical for a long while and when I was working on it the power was off. I tried to accommodate the other trades the best I could, but if I had to work on it, it was worked cold.

Carpenters and plumbers have extension cords. If not, they need to go buy one.

Working industrial now is a little different but 95% of the time it is locked out and worked cold.

 

[Stuart in MN]

There's no reason at all to do it. Shut the power off.

 

[Gooch]

I work on things hot every day,basically just need to watch what you touch and use the right tools. Sometimes if the house is empty and I am changing a bunch of outlets I will kill the power just to do it quick. But for one outlet I leave power on. Key is taking black wires off first and putting them back on last.

I guess you and I value my life differently. To me it's just a job, I'm not willing to die just because I might inconvenience someone. I've got people in my life that depend on me and I can't do much if a stupid, easily preventable mistake kills me.

 

[Jrican]

Go for it, it's just 120V. It might bite, you but it probably wont kill you. You might damage your tools too, so be carefull with those someone might want them after your 'done'.

 

[MTW]

As you know already, working hot is a bad idea, but can be done. Ive been know to do it on 480V industrial services, but it's best avoided at all cost.

But if you must,

Besides the the main drawback of safety, it's difficult to do a excellent job of making the terminations and training the wires back into the box properly. Usually one slip-up near the end, will produce the arc and shut it down anyway. Along with burning the carpet or other finish.

So the logical thing would be to reverse the procedure.

For normal houses where nothing is labeled,working alone. I would remove the device from the box hot with wires attached. Make a short jumper, protect the floor finish and short from line to neutral at the terminal screws (not the wires or grounded box) to trip the circuit. Short again to retest. Properly replace the device and associated wiring, then find and label the circuit breaker for the next guy (You). Don't do this for circuits over 120V 20A, unless you want to be called flashman.

This is the quick and dirty method, not the safest, but effective and safer than trying to do the whole procedure hot. Word to the wise, get in the habit of always treating any wire like it's hot, even when it's off and you tested it previously. It can become hot at any time for a multitude of reasons, unbeknownst to you. It's happened in my career many times even with a proper padlock tagged lockout. If you learn to do every termination treating it like it's hot, when it's not, you'll be much safer overall and it will be less on your nerves when you really need to do it hot.

Secondary thought. Bedroom outlets especially behind the bed, is where many home electrical fires start, from busted receptacles with arcing loose connections, just as was in your case. A better repair would be to install the now NEC required, arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) on the circuit supply. This is to trip the circuit when it senses an arcing situation and hopefully prevent any fires. And lastly don't skimp here (behind the bed) on cheesy receptacles, get a commercial grade with nylon construction to take a little more abuse.

Play it safe, for your own good...
MTW Ω

 

[southalabama]

When I was a kid I saw my dad blow apart a screwdriver while in the back of a radio station transmitter. Whatever he was doing had to be done while it was on.

My uncle works as top electrician at a paper mill. He got into some electricity. It went into his elbow and blew out his fingertips.

Those two experiences scared me straight. While I have a few insulated tools everything I need done in the house or office building can be done with the power off.

 

[ddawg16]

120Vac? All the time. Adds a little thrill to my daily life....

240Vac and above????? NFW

 

[Mustang51js]

I guess you and I value my life differently. To me it's just a job, I'm not willing to die just because I might inconvenience someone. I've got people in my life that depend on me and I can't do much if a stupid, easily preventable mistake kills me.

I'm talking about your standard 15 amp, 20 amp outlets and switches. If your afraid to work on them hot then you shouldn't be in the business. If you know what your doing and know your limits you won't have a problem,like I said I work on hot stuff everyday multiple times and can't remember the last time I got hit it's been so long and that's because I use the right tools the right way. The amps and higher voltage will kill you. What would you do if you are doing a simple house service and need to connect power, call the power company to shut down the power so you can hook up the service,you will be out of business pretty quick,or ask a company to shut down because you have to replace a broken light switch. Not to mention it's part of my job and that's the risk I take,same as me being a firefighter also,it's a risk you have going into it.

 

[Mustang51js]

And good luck trying to trouble shoot something with the power off

 

[southalabama]

I think you answered part of the issue with your statement, "you shouldn't be in the business" if afraid to work something hot.

I'm not in the business but I've done a lot of wiring under the direction of my dad or uncle. Do they work stuff hot at times? Absolutely. Do I? Absolutely not. I'm a lawyer not an electrician. No need for me to work it hot.

 

[Gooch]

I'm talking about your standard 15 amp, 20 amp outlets and switches. If your afraid to work on them hot then you shouldn't be in the business. If you know what your doing and know your limits you won't have a problem,like I said I work on hot stuff everyday multiple times and can't remember the last time I got hit it's been so long and that's because I use the right tools the right way. The amps and higher voltage will kill you. What would you do if you are doing a simple house service and need to connect power, call the power company to shut down the power so you can hook up the service,you will be out of business pretty quick,or ask a company to shut down because you have to replace a broken light switch. Not to mention it's part of my job and that's the risk I take,same as me being a firefighter also,it's a risk you have going into it.

Look up what voltage causes the most electrocution and tell me 120v isn't dangerous. I work with this stuff everyday. I'm not afraid of it because I give it the respect it demands. My company's customers don't mind the little inconvenience having to shut something off might cause because they understand above everything else human safety is most important. You better believe I'm calling the power company to kill a service for panel change out. I'm not messing with the unfused wires, and its a felony to tamper with utility metering equipment. If we ever have customers that demand we not kill something we tell them to hire someone else. There is always someone else willing to hold a loaded gun to there head over a stupid light switch.

 

[Mustang51js]

Look up what voltage causes the most electrocution and tell me 120v isn't dangerous. I work with this stuff everyday. I'm not afraid of it because I give it the respect it demands. My company's customers don't mind the little inconvenience having to shut something off might cause because they understand above everything else human safety is most important. You better believe I'm calling the power company to kill a service for panel change out. I'm not messing with the unfused wires, and its a felony to tamper with utility metering equipment. If we ever have customers that demand we not kill something we tell them to hire someone else. There is always someone else willing to hold a loaded gun to there head over a stupid light switch.

I guess it's different areas because here I have to hook up the power for a service change or else the customer goes without power for a day and customer is responsible from connection on house and down,so if a meter needs replacing the power co won't do it or come out unless you fill out a bunch of papers. But if you use testers and the right tools then no need to shut power off. Yes I do it once in a while but most of my work I don't,your only dealing with one hot wire in most outlets anyway if your replacing them,I use the tester to see which one and hook that up last,and don't touch the metal on my screwdriver. And if I happen to get shocked I just pull my hand back and try again,but like I said before it's been a long time since I've been shocked. And unless your bare feet and standing in water you can touch the hot by itself and not get shocked anyway.

 

[kursplat]

Go for it, it's just 120V. It might bite, you but it probably wont kill you. You might damage your tools too, so be carefull with those someone might want them after your 'done'.

you have never been hung up on 120v

gloves and eye protection, minimum

 

[tfi racing]

If you have to ask about it, there is no way you should even think about working on any live circuit, that is all that needs to be said.

 

[kaffine]

At home I only work with power off on that circuit and I check to make sure it is off with a meter.

At work we only work hot if there is no other way to do it (basically troubleshooting) and the reason has to be documented and approved along with safety procedures in place. We will work after hours/ weekends if needed to be able to shutdown equipment rather than working hot. If you have to move a wire in order to check voltage after locking and tagging the equipment out it is considered hot work. Where I work now is the most safety conscience place I have seen.

I would say the best advice if you are going to work hot is make sure your life insurance is paid up. I have been zapped by 120V several times and 240V once so far I have been lucky, I don't plan on pushing my luck if I don't have too.

 

[Norcal]

Pretty hard to get hit with 240 volts in North America, would have to be in contact w/ both legs of a 240V 1Ø line, if only in contact w/ one leg it's just 120 volts. That being said, if you are doing electrical while working for a employer, it's pretty much prohibited to work hot except under certain circumstances, in a single family home, no excuse for doing it hot.

There are old electricians, and there are bold electricians, but there are no old, bold electricians.

 

[bczygan]

Ahhh,
The usual rainbow of different answers.
I worked hot because it was very inconvenient to turn off the fuse panel just at that moment. I'm not an electrician, just a homeowner. Been zapped by 120 a couple of times when young. And once, a few years ago, on the skin of an Airstream trailer hooked to shore power. Usually I like the power turned off all the way back to Fermi, or at least pull the meter. Did this in the right order. Hots disconnected first and connected last. Didn't se insulated screwdriver, but tried to avoid touching metal with skin the whole time, and also to keep from shorting metal to metal. And I hate it when you are finished and the outlet is back securely screwed into the box, and you are screwing the cover plate into place, and the screwdriver slips and tries to dive into a hot slot.

Yeah, I don't like working hot at all.

This outlet was circa 1941 and had a lot of years of plugs being yanked out of it. The last straw was one of those flat against the wall plugs that rotate. It got caught against the bed frame and shorted and cracked the receptacle body. It wasn't so much the fire danger that caused me to change it, but the fact that my wife's alarm clock plugged into that outlet, and just the cat brushing the cord would disconnect the clock and she would have no wake up alarm.

Now we're safe and one more little daily irritant is gone.

BTW...ungrounded system. Replaced with nice 20A commercial grade. Whole house needs rewire and service upgrade.

Bill

 

[ADSR]

Got nailed many of times with 110v and it doesn't feel nice. Got hit with 240v and i still having a hard time telling if my bladder is full or not. Ever since the 240v shock, it's very hard to tell if i have to take a leak.

 

[RivennHewn]

Got nailed many of times with 110v and it doesn't feel nice. Got hit with 240v and i still having a hard time telling if my bladder is full or not. Ever since the 240v shock, it's very hard to tell if i have to take a leak.

Time to add some super beta prostate supplements to electricians PPE?

 

[TractorJeff]

Look it up, statistically 120Volts AC KILLS more people per year in the US!
Why?
Too many people with the attitude of 120 won't kill you!

Insurance Guy and new Safety Guy came in to work one day, started looking around, asking questions. He asked about the Policy of Working "Live" on the Generators. I said, "What do you mean?" He said if it was a Customer test and the Plant Manager said, I interrupted him right there by replying that I and my crew would tell them to "Go F$%K themselves, ain't happening! We don't get paid for dying nor being Heroes!"
They looked shocked at my Reply and walked away!

Another story about the guy who said he shorts the terminals to find the Breaker.
Maintenance guy said he knew a guy who did that alot.
They were way in the end of a building working one time the guy started to do that. He stopped him and said the wires don't look right in the tunnel. (wiring in floor chaise)
They put a beeper on, then went upstream, those wires bypassed the next breaker panel, further upstream, they found them attached to a pair of 500 amp fuses in a disconnect for distribution. If he had shorted those, it would have blown his shorting wire in his face.
Don't make it a habit of shorting wires to find breakers!

 

[nehog]

120Vac? All the time. Adds a little thrill to my daily life....

240Vac and above????? NFW

Not talking how good it feels, but I used to have statistics that showed that 120 volts resulted in more deaths than 240 volts.

As to the OP's question: only when working on a live circuit is necessary as a life saving act should it be done. So do it only when shutting off the circuit is more likely to result in a death or serious injury than working on a live circuit.

 

[Mustang51js]

Any stats on how many of those were electricians and not just a homeowner,and I'm sure those stats are for everybody such as kids sticking things in an outlet. Only way I can see someone getting killed changing a hot outlet is if they have a heart problem. I have a better chance getting killed falling off a ladder or driving to the job than getting electrocuted but that doesn't mean I have to walk to the jobs or set up a scaffold

 

[Kevin54]

I had to wire a house hot at the breaker panel. It was a little scary. I just had a basement put under the house, and had to have all new wiring and new service in. was down to hooking up the panel box, and it was dark out. I lucked out and got it all wired. Been nailed by 120v a few times. It feels the same as if someone took a baseball bat and hit me.

Saw the dumbest thing though. This was my ex.....we had just finished painting the living room and were cleaning up. A couple of the outlets had a little paint on them, so I asked the wife to wipe them off. I was on the other side of the room and heard her scream and saw an orange ball rolling across the floor. WTF!!!!! I asked her what the hell that was and she starts complaining that I asked her to clean the outlets off. I asked her what she was using. A ball of steel wool

BTW......Bill.....if you wired it hot, and got a spark, I would be wondering why it sparked. It sounds like there may be something wrong. I've wired 120 hot quite a few times and never had a spark unless I had a short.

 

[Stuart in MN]

A person doesn't necessarily need a heart problem to get electrocuted. There are all kinds of other factors - if they have sweaty hands, if they are also in contact with a good ground, if they're able to let go of the hot wire or if their grip is clenched up, and on and on. Also, different people have different levels of tolerance to electric shock - we had an old timer in a couple years ago to teach an electrical safety class (he'd been a Master Electrician for something like 50 years) and he had touched hot wires so much in his early days that he'd built up a tolerance. On the other hand, he hardly had any feeling left in his fingers either.

I'm an EE, with 35 years of experience on construction projects. I can't remember the last time I ever saw an electrician working hot; there just aren't that many times when it's necessary, and when they do have to do it they're suited up with proper protective gear. There's certainly no reason for a homeowner to ever do it.

 

[Gooch]

Any stats on how many of those were electricians and not just a homeowner,and I'm sure those stats are for everybody such as kids sticking things in an outlet. Only way I can see someone getting killed changing a hot outlet is if they have a heart problem. I have a better chance getting killed falling off a ladder or driving to the job than getting electrocuted but that doesn't mean I have to walk to the jobs or set up a scaffold

Do you understand how little current it takes to kill a person? Its not measured in amps. Would you hold a loaded gun to your head? Would you feel safer if the gun was a .22 over a .45?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Look up what voltage causes the most electrocution and tell me 120v isn't dangerous. I work with this stuff everyday. I'm not afraid of it because I give it the respect it demands. My company's customers don't mind the little inconvenience having to shut something off might cause because they understand above everything else human safety is most important. You better believe I'm calling the power company to kill a service for panel change out. I'm not messing with the unfused wires, and its a felony to tamper with utility metering equipment. If we ever have customers that demand we not kill something we tell them to hire someone else. There is always someone else willing to hold a loaded gun to there head over a stupid light switch.

Ive got more years in the electrical/hvac/plumbing trades than I care to count most days.
Although Im semi retired these days and spend a lot of time puttzing around with old cars/motorcycles I still do more service calls than a lot of guys 1/2 my age.
Anyway youre right about the 120v systems causing lots of injuries due to the fact that it grabs you instead of booting you off like the higher voltage often does.
That being said I personally still do plenty of things hot,but with 30 plus years in the trades I feel that I know my limits most days.
But at the same time always remember electricity is what I like to call "The equal opportunity *** kicker",it doesn't discriminate.
The best tip I can give anybody about wiring is to always treat it like its hot,even when the power is off.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I had to wire a house hot at the breaker panel. It was a little scary. I just had a basement put under the house, and had to have all new wiring and new service in. was down to hooking up the panel box, and it was dark out. I lucked out and got it all wired. Been nailed by 120v a few times. It feels the same as if someone took a baseball bat and hit me.

Saw the dumbest thing though. This was my ex.....we had just finished painting the living room and were cleaning up. A couple of the outlets had a little paint on them, so I asked the wife to wipe them off. I was on the other side of the room and heard her scream and saw an orange ball rolling across the floor. WTF!!!!! I asked her what the hell that was and she starts complaining that I asked her to clean the outlets off. I asked her what she was using. A ball of steel wool

BTW......Bill.....if you wired it hot, and got a spark, I would be wondering why it sparked. It sounds like there may be something wrong. I've wired 120 hot quite a few times and never had a spark unless I had a short.

He got a spark because there was something else plugged in already farther down the circuit putting a load on it.

 

[Mustang51js]

Do you understand how little current it takes to kill a person? Its not measured in amps. Would you hold a loaded gun to your head? Would you feel safer if the gun was a .22 over a .45?

I understand that,I know you could die from a 9 volt battery. And if I had a choice I would choose a 22 since I have a hard head lol.

 

[Syberia]

I've "worked hot" by accident before. Cutting into a wire in the attic which wasn't on the breaker I thought it was on. Gave me quite a scare and ruined my wire cutters. The next thing I did was to turn off power to the whole house before I finished.

 

[kaffine]

Do you understand how little current it takes to kill a person? Its not measured in amps. Would you hold a loaded gun to your head? Would you feel safer if the gun was a .22 over a .45?

Safety guys at work have a documented case of 6mA killing someone. They aren't sure how that happened as it is well below the normal amount considered deadly but the investigators are sure only 6mA was available. I'm not sure what the voltage was though. I'm not sure where it happened as our safety guys have access to a lot of reports from other places.

I prefer no gun being held to my head that is why I turn off the breaker and check to make sure the power is off before starting work. Since I do more work equipment that gets plugged in I will put the plug in my pocket before starting work. Now I know it is not plugged in and no one else is can plug it in without me knowing.

 

[Notgrownup]

Ain't no way in hell. I turn it off and then check it.

 

[Jinks]

First guy I worked with at the phone company limped. When I got to know him well enough to ask he told me it was the reason he not only opened breakers, he pulled 'em & put 'em in his pocket! Years earlier he was workin' on a circuit & had turned the breaker off. He was on a ladder & didn't see the conscientious worker who noticed the open breaker & turned it back on. The 120V didn't hurt him much, but the fall off the ladder left him with a permanent limp. It ain't always the voltage/amperage that kills you......... I turn the power off!

 

[Norcal]

To the OP, you do realize those receptacles "Replaced with nice 20A commercial grade" are not legal in a residence anymore, as they have to be tamper resistant and GFCI protected because it's lack of a equipment ground, not to mention if it's a 20A circuit or not.

 

[kiatech]

Why work hot when you don't have too? did you use proper PPE and insulated tools?

BTW......Bill.....if you wired it hot, and got a spark, I would be wondering why it sparked. It sounds like there may be something wrong. I've wired 120 hot quite a few times and never had a spark unless I had a short.

There was probably a load in the circuit somewhere.

 

[Milton Shaw]

I haven't seen it mentioned but I always assume the circuit is hot until I have checked it with a non contact voltage indicator. I have seen cook tops that were wired incorrectly to two different double pole breakers. Turned the one marked off and the 120 volt indicator lights on the top were out but the other leg still had 120 volts on it but nothing showed on until I used a screwdriver to start removing wires. Found the other wire was connected about 4 breakers down in the fuse box. When I was a appliance technician I carried one in my pocket at all times and checked just about everything before I would even touch the appliance. I had seen dryers ground/neutral wired to line voltage enough not to trust any bodies wiring without checking. I have seen frig spark when copper water line was attached. Everything is hot until you prove it's not.