Working in a Hot Box

[RonRock]

My sons house occasionally needs some wiring work done. I am comfortable doing the work. But the main breaker panel don't have a main breaker. So I have to do any work in the panel with the box "hot." Is there a safe way to work in a "hot" panel? I'm thinking rubber gloves with leather outer gloves to protect the rubber. But am concerned with the bulk and being able to actually do the work I need to do.

I know the best option is to replace the panel with a new one with a main breaker. And that will happen eventually, but not now.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Work slow and think about what youre doing.
So where is the main service disconnect located?

 

[RonRock]

There is no main service disconnect other than pulling the meter. I have considered pulling the meter. Used to be standard practice on a fire scene for us to pull them. But don't want to break the security wire.

Service comes in from the meter to the top lugs that serve the two hot legs and ground.

 

[1/2 Cup]

The safest way to do any work is to isolate the supply, we can't work live here in Australia!

 

[Mattlt]

Old wives tale (well, old electrician's tale...) is to keep one hand in your back pocket when working in a panel. Theory is if you touch a live wire with one hand, your other hand would likely be grounded out by touching part of the panel. The "shock" would travel up one arm and down the other, right through your heart.

Assuming, of course, that you're not standing in a water puddle with bare feet while doing this!

Personally, I think I would make the investment in getting a panel with a main breaker installed.

 

[raddksn]

Go ahead cut the seal shut off all breakers and pull the meter. Next time the meter is read meter reader will just put a new seal on. POCO won't think anything of it unless there is a big reduction in usage (as in stealing power)!

 

[bczygan]

Go ahead cut the seal shut off all breakers and pull the meter. Next time the meter is read meter reader will just put a new seal on. POCO won't think anything of it unless there is a big reduction in usage (as in stealing power)!

THIS^^^^

Breaking the seal is no big deal.

Make sure all loads are off when you pull the meter.

Might be a good time to install a disconnecting means in the line.

 

[ddawg16]

Ditto on the meter. It's done all the time.

But....why no main breaker? What does the house depend on for safety? The wires to the house melting and then breaking the ckt?

So when the fire department shows up because of a fire....how do they shut off the power? Pull the meter?

You need a main breaker....I can't imagine this being to code.

 

[sberry]

In some cases it was and is still legal to install a service without a main but its doubly dangerous to work on one due to the fact that there could be hundreds of amps (maybe more) in a fault situation.

 

[JakeKohl]

My house did not have a disconnect and as I understand it, if you have less than a certain number of "throws" required to turn off all the breakers (is it 6 throws?), you are not required to have a single disconnect. I upgraded my box when I built my garage so I would have that disconnect. The tag on the meter happened to get cut so I could disconnect the meter and cut the power. The power company reads it remotely now anyway...I don't think they've ever noticed. If they were asked, I'm betting they would rather have you cut the tag and pull the meter rather than work in a live box (although they would probably want to pull the meter themselves and then require permits and inspections).

Prior to that, I did work in the box while it was energized on occasion. I stand by the recommendation to keep one hand in a pocket or behind your back and work with the other. While I'm not sure how much it would protect you should you touch something live, it's easier to just keep track of where one hand is going. I could see myself getting comfortable and accidentally placing the other hand somewhere it shouldn't be...I did get hit arm to arm once working inside an industrial electrical enclosure (480V) - one arm holding open the door and the other working inside. That was very unpleasant and I'm glad to still be here.

 

[jjpp]

Find out what gauge wire is supplying the panel and install the proper sized service disconnect between the meter and the panel. Ultimately the panel will need to be replaced in the future.

 

[JoeFin]

Old wives tale (well, old electrician's tale...) is to keep one hand in your back pocket when working in a panel.

Good advice

My Oh My how times have changed

I remember when safety equipment for working in 12Kv gear was 20Kv Gloves and a pair of Shaded Safety Glasses.

 

[Bjm364]

Yank the meter, put some jumpers in, park an old junky truck infront of it and enjoy free power for a while!

 

[NUTTSGT]

No disconnect and it needs some electrical work ? I'd say it time to make an upgrade and buy a new box. If it's that old that it doesn't have an main in it, it probably wouldn't hurt to upgrade it to a 200 amp box. What's in it right now 60 or 100 ?

So when the fire department shows up because of a fire....how do they shut off the power? Pull the meter?

You need a main breaker....I can't imagine this being to code.

We call the power company and let them deal with it. If it's an absolute emergency, a hazard to our guys, I'd pull the meter with out a doubt and put a blank in it's place. (we do have a few of them)

I have seen an aluminum buss bar laying in a puddle of a breaker box after the main failed to trip. Luckily, the trip occurred out in the alley up on the power line.

 

[PRH44]

Electrocution is always a concern anytime one works with electricity, precautions should be taken. Insulated tools, Arch Flash protection gear rated for the available fault current.

Working in an energized panel without a main over current protective device has inherent dangers. A phase to phase or phase to ground fault will result in a large amount of fault current to develop in a few cycles. This will create a fireball laced with molten metal to grow in magnitude until the circuit is opened. Without a main breaker the next overcurrent protective device would be the utility protection on the primary side of the transformer. This protective device will normally be sized much greater to handle other loads on the transformer including inrush.
This means you could see a possible melt down of a conductor or buss to open the circuit.
Pulling the meter will de-energize the panel. I would not recommend this to a DIYer. I have witnessed the results of the explosions from such practice. There should be a main breaker or fused disconnect installed on this panel as a first step.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Electrocution is always a concern anytime one works with electricity, precautions should be taken. Insulated tools, Arch Flash protection gear rated for the available fault current.

Working in an energized panel without a main over current protective device has inherent dangers. A phase to phase or phase to ground fault will result in a large amount of fault current to develop in a few cycles. This will create a fireball laced with molten metal to grow in magnitude until the circuit is opened. Without a main breaker the next overcurrent protective device would be the utility protection on the primary side of the transformer. This protective device will normally be sized much greater to handle other loads on the transformer including inrush.
This means you could see a possible melt down of a conductor or buss to open the circuit.
Pulling the meter will de-energize the panel. I would not recommend this to a DIYer. I have witnessed the results of the explosions from such practice. There should be a main breaker or fused disconnect installed on this panel as a first step.

As above, I have a work colleague that is still getting skin grafts 20 years on from an arch flash..

 

[malibu101]

As PRH44 said-
It's not as much about YOU getting electrocuted. Which is certainly a problem.

Just as big of a problem would be shorting anything out in the panel.
The resulting arc flash is just as deadly.

 

[Norcal]

No disconnect and it needs some electrical work ? I'd say it time to make an upgrade and buy a new box. If it's that old that it doesn't have an main in it, it probably wouldn't hurt to upgrade it to a 200 amp box. What's in it right now 60 or 100 ?








We call the power company and let them deal with it. If it's an absolute emergency, a hazard to our guys, I'd pull the meter with out a doubt and put a blank in it's place. (we do have a few of them)
I have seen an aluminum buss bar laying in a puddle of a breaker box after the main failed to trip. Luckily, the trip occurred out in the alley up on the power line.

You do realize there is no,none,nada,zilch, overcurrent protection ahead of a main on the PoCo feed? Pulling a meter can be risky, & if any failure were to occur the results will not be pretty.

To all others (non FD), some utilities take a very dim view of cutting their meter seals.

 

[JoeFin]

You do realize there is no,none,nada,zilch, overcurrent protection ahead of a main on the PoCo feed? .

Then what do they put all those Phase Angle Relays in the Substations for ???

But ya - you'll see up to a 5000 amp fault current before anything upstream kicks out.

NorCal - here is a little starter I had to do some control work on the other day

 

[Sureshot]

Yank the meter, put some jumpers in, park an old junky truck infront of it and enjoy free power for a while!

I believe you can put the meter upside down and spin it backwards. A friend worked on a crew one time that had a big box of seals. He still kicks his *** for not taking some for future use.

I would be calling the Poco to get some input on the meter.

 

[rockwithjason]

You do realize there is no,none,nada,zilch, overcurrent protection ahead of a main on the PoCo feed? Pulling a meter can be risky, & if any failure were to occur the results will not be pretty.

To all others (non FD), some utilities take a very dim view of cutting their meter seals.

That is not correct at all. The vast majority of transformers are primary fused and the utility also has zone relays for fault protection but these only limit fault current they are not for personal protection. You can pull the meter but I would call the utility and tell them you had to make some repairs. They are generally ok to deal with if you are up front and not a a suspect for power theft.

jumping out a meter is a good way to end up on the pokey or with fines

 

[PRH44]

There are some considerations I would examine before pulling a meter.
1. How old is the meter, has it been there for many years, is it going to stick or fall apart?
2. Is the meter base securely fasten to the structure no loose screws or hardware in the meter base? I have seen enclosures break loose from the structure and allow hardware to fall into the lugs resulting in an Arc fault.
3.Are the lugs properly torqued and not loose or over tightened fracturing the insulator. When you pull the meter a damaged insulator can allow the lug to come out with the meter this can get bad fast.
4. Am I ready for a possible arc flash and destruction of equipment?

What are the odds of something going wrong? I personally do not take chances on unknown odds if I do not have to.
You may be a very capable electrician, but that doesn't stop the unforeseen dangers.
So before you act please understand the risks involved and be prepared for the worst.
Nothing is worth the physical and emotional pain or possible loss of life.
I have see it to many times



Arc flash temperature can reach or exceed 35,000 degrees. The energy released in the fault rapidly vaporizes the metal conductors involved, blasting molten metal and expanding plasma outward with extraordinary force, until some part of the system melts, trips, or evaporates. The vaporized metal changes from solid state to gas vapor and suddenly expands by a factor of 69,000 times in volume.
A penny will become the size of a refrigerating in its gas state. This reaction will melt skin and incinerate clothing in a few cycles.

Please be safe

 

[AffableCurmudgeon]

My sons house occasionally needs some wiring work done. I am comfortable doing the work. But the main breaker panel don't have a main breaker. So I have to do any work in the panel with the box "hot." Is there a safe way to work in a "hot" panel? I'm thinking rubber gloves with leather outer gloves to protect the rubber. But am concerned with the bulk and being able to actually do the work I need to do.

I know the best option is to replace the panel with a new one with a main breaker. And that will happen eventually, but not now.

Being smart means knowing your limits and to be comfortable with those limits. You are at your limit, my friend. Call the power company, get them to come out and disconnect power. Install or get installed a new panel with a shutoff while power is off.

Hope you do the right thing and continue to be around. I am sure your son would like having you around for a while longer.

 

[ishiboo]

Since you have pulled the meter before, do it again. Shut off ALL breakers and then remove the meter.

Install a 100A or 200A rated disconnect switch directly off the meter. You can then isolate the main panel. In the future, when you replace the whole panel, you can easily do so.

 

[ishiboo]

That is not correct at all. The vast majority of transformers are primary fused and the utility also has zone relays for fault protection but these only limit fault current they are not for personal protection. You can pull the meter but I would call the utility and tell them you had to make some repairs. They are generally ok to deal with if you are up front and not a a suspect for power theft.

jumping out a meter is a good way to end up on the pokey or with fines

Effectively he was correct.

Anything you short on your end is going to vaporize whatever you short it with, the low voltage wires, etc... and is not likely to blow a zone relay/etc.

 

[Norcal]

There is protection on the primary but still none on the secondary, most likely will have to burn through the conductor to clear the fault before the primary clears.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Almost the entire country has been converted to digital "smart meters" now. These record when they have been pulled. You cannot hide it from the POCO. In many states its a felony, or at least, a misdemeanor, to cut a POCO seal and pull a meter. Call the POCO and ask for the meter to be removed and reinstalled. Many times they will do this without a permit if you tell them its something simple like a breaker replacement and you do not have a disconnect.

I would look to get a new meter socket/disconnect outside asap, then the panel can be replaced at your leisure.

Charles

 

[jayrush13]

Almost the entire country has been converted to digital "smart meters" now. These record when they have been pulled. You cannot hide it from the POCO. In many states its a felony, or at least, a misdemeanor, to cut a POCO seal and pull a meter. Call the POCO and ask for the meter to be removed and reinstalled. Many times they will do this without a permit if you tell them its something simple like a breaker replacement and you do not have a disconnect.

I would look to get a new meter socket/disconnect outside asap, then the panel can be replaced at your leisure.

Charles

Not only will it record it will report to the office it has been pulled and they will start making calls. My friend has his own electrical company and went on a service call for a bad main breaker. He pulled the meter on a Friday afternoon and swapped Main breakers. Monday morning PGE called the building dept asking about permits, called the home owner and ended up calling my buddy to make sure everything was on the up and up. Last time I talked to a meter man for our local power company he told me they can read status on the new digital meters every 7 minutes if they want. So if you do pop a meter you better have a good reason and be prepared to do some explaining.

 

[yetibiker]

This might not be too expensive to fix. The cheapest way to do this safely and on the up and up would be to hire an electrician. Have him inspect the condition of the service for any problems. Tell him you want to heel feed the old panel with a new breaker. Probably 2 hours for even the slowest guy. If the panel is full, use tandems to make room for this new main. Let HIM mess with the PoCo and the meter. If he decides to pull the meter himself, it is on him. When he leaves, you will have a main breaker that you can shut off. If you need more space in the future, put a big subpanel in next to your main panel.

Only problem would be if the local inspector would consider this a new service and require current code requirements be met. Your electrician should be able to help you navigate that.

 

[ichabod]

The arc flash risk is what I am most concerned with while working HOT. Getting a shock ( at residential voltage ) will do one of two things for you, you will feel an uncomfortable tingle or it will be enough current flow to screw up your heart beat and cause a heart attack. Now an arc flash can screw you for life, burns, eyesight, hearing, or hands that are burned so bad you will never turn a wrench again. I cant imagine a life not being able to see a bikini on the beach, listening to some good ol' music or working on the bikes. I know one man that is missing a hand and half a foot.

 

[NUTTSGT]

You do realize there is no,none,nada,zilch, overcurrent protection ahead of a main on the PoCo feed? Pulling a meter can be risky, & if any failure were to occur the results will not be pretty.

To all others (non FD), some utilities take a very dim view of cutting their meter seals.

Like I said, only in an absolute emergency when one of our guys is in hazard would I even think about pulling a meter. Other than that, we'll be waiting on the power company.

 

[risc]

Our house has has one of these stupid panels without a main breaker. I guess they were fairly common in the '80s. I called an electrician to add a couple of circuits rather than mess with it. In retrospect I should have spent the money to upgrade the box and added the circuits later.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Next time the meter is read meter reader will just put a new seal on.

Last two meters I've pulled the meter readers never replaced the seal. One has been a couple years now. One I had a permit for a new service upgrade and the POCO installed a new transformer and service wire.

Anyone have a copy of law regarding the meters?
Reason I ask is the home owner is responsible for the meter base and mast components. Making it the home owners property. If you/I need to inspect the meter base mounting bolts for a water leak, or what ever, we need permission to inspect our equipment? I have walked into the POCO and set the cut seal on the desk stating I need a new one of these before, no issues.

On a different note I was going to cut some 6 gauge wire feeding some silo unloaders in an old barn once. They tested hot so I pulled all fuses in the panel box. Tested again and they were still hot, followed wires and they by-passed main-panel and went directly to power poll where meter was mounted. Went and pulled meter off, just about to cut wires and I decided to check again, still HOT!
It was an old dairy farm that had a generator plug at the pole to feed the whole farm and the current did not go through the meter in that application. I'm sure someone can explain it better than I can.

 

[Jarcese]

We don't care about seals anymore. Digital meters store how many times they've been pulled. That and they average most people with disk type meters. There is not a lot of physical meter reading done anymore.

It doesn't hurt to ask for permission though. Like Norcal said, you most likely only have that primary fuse. A guy I work with had a meter trough explode the other day pulling a meter. He didn't get hurt, but it wouldn't clear itself. He had to go pull the fuse in the pad mount.

A primary fuse does not protect the secondaries well at all. It will take max clearing time for them to clear which is most likely 1000 seconds. I saw a dead short 240v melt copper secondaries to the ground and stay in an running with a 10 amp k(fast) fuse. Utilities can be forgiving to people who make small mistakes that cause a little damage, but you're talking $5000 at least minus a possible hospital bill.

It's not hard to cut a tag and pull a meter but you might as well CYA.

 

[MBfreak]

Any electric current above 5 mA flowing thru a limb can be a serious occurence.
You loose control over the muscles ( ie you will not be able to unclench your hand). The loss of voluntary muscle control is accompanied by muscle spasms, the muscles controlling the elbow angle, hand grip power etc will ALL excert maximum power. And since "gripping or bending" muscles are much stronger than "loosening or straightening " , an uncontrollable situation occurs. Hand grips, arm joints excert max bending force , torso muscles make you bend forward etc. As long as a current of 10-30 mA AC or about three times higher for DC flows thru a limb, torso, hand this will happen.
If the current path goes thru the upper torso heart rhytm will be severely disturbed. If the current is higher, several hundred mAmps, permanent neurological damage will occur.
And as very correctly pointed out in several threads, the arc is dangerous and leads to severe burns and eventually coagulation in blood vessels.
Several years ago I had the sad duty of translating a post mortem from Swedish to English. The person had been zapped by 20 kV in a very high power system( 1250 kVA generator busbar) and was thrown backwards several meters by the muscle spasms. There was no hot arc. The autopsy stated instant death due to the evaporation of vital neurological systems in and around the heart and in the lower neck region. Further, the finer blood vessels in the lower arm region were all destroyed

So, get the Power Company to install a fused disconnect at the meter.

As to the "manly" propensity and willingness to perform live line work, this should be phased out. Several large companies have prohibited their emloyers or ontractors from doing live line work above 50 V AC/DC, even if allowed by utility and/or national standards.

And on high power installation, no amount of procedures, protective equipment and cool tools will protect the worker from the magnetic field in the vicinity of a conductor carrying several hundreds or more Amps.
The effect of magnetic fields on the body is as yet not physiologically explained or well understood but there are clear indications that it is far from harmless. The field of work is grossly underfunded and few researchers are attracted by working in shed , using primitive tools and with meagre financing.

Best regards '

Ola

 

[pistonbroke]

The correct fix is to get an electrician to install a new panel with a main breaker built in. Bite the bullet, pull a permit and do it right. Your present panel is a fire hazard.
As for cutting the seal and pulling the meter, forget it. As mentioned earlier, if it's an old meter base you could be setting yourself up for a world of hurt.
The arc flash discussion is simple. If the equipment doesn't have an arc flash rating on it, you have to assume the worst. That means you can't work on it hot. Period.
The new panel adds more value to your house than the cost of installation and reduces the risk to the occupants.
It's a no brainer.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Last two meters I've pulled the meter readers never replaced the seal. One has been a couple years now. One I had a permit for a new service upgrade and the POCO installed a new transformer and service wire.

Anyone have a copy of law regarding the meters?
Reason I ask is the home owner is responsible for the meter base and mast components. Making it the home owners property. If you/I need to inspect the meter base mounting bolts for a water leak, or what ever, we need permission to inspect our equipment? I have walked into the POCO and set the cut seal on the desk stating I need a new one of these before, no issues.

On a different note I was going to cut some 6 gauge wire feeding some silo unloaders in an old barn once. They tested hot so I pulled all fuses in the panel box. Tested again and they were still hot, followed wires and they by-passed main-panel and went directly to power poll where meter was mounted. Went and pulled meter off, just about to cut wires and I decided to check again, still HOT!
It was an old dairy farm that had a generator plug at the pole to feed the whole farm and the current did not go through the meter in that application. I'm sure someone can explain it better than I can.

Ive come across that myself a time or 2 in the past.

 

[jontar]

Quote:

I remember when safety equipment for working in 12Kv gear was 20Kv Gloves and a pair of Shaded Safety Glasses.

Thats all you need, I wish I could come work there. We need a 40cal bunker suit with hood, shotgun (switching) sticks, switching mats, rubber gloves, blankets, hoses, and an energized work permit.

 

[jontar]

More people (homeowners) die on 120/240v systems every year then anyone other voltage in industry. Why because they all go to Home Depot and go yeah I can do that.

More electrical workers die on dirty old 480v every year then any other voltage, why its the most common voltage used in industry, its still low voltage, but generally has big current.

Current X Time (in cycles) equals Arc Flash in ph to ph and ph to gnd. Doesn't matter if the flash is in the meter or panel its all the same, if you don't have the proper PPE, and training don't mess with the stuff.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Agree with all that have said, the OP just needs to pull a permit and get it done right. Having done electrical service change outs for 20 years, I NEVER pulled a meter without calling the POCO first....

As a electrical contractor, I wanted to maintain a good relationship with the POCO linemen/service crew. In my location, the meter is the property of the POCO and they do not like people tampering with their meter or seals because of the eminent danger and the possibility of power theft. ....

People seem to forget also that when they are tampering with the meters, and the POCO gets ticked about it, the POCO can opt to just NOT give the customer electrical service.....

From the safety aspect of it and the possibility of one losing electrical service to their home, meter tampering is just not worth it. jmo