Workshop electrical and ethernet installation

[Armstrong2024]

I am currently finalizing the scope of work for an upcoming electrical and Ethernet installation project, and I would greatly appreciate your thoughtful input and feedback. The primary goal of this project is to ensure a seamless and future-proof installation that meets the highest standards with correct material specifications, including the gauge of wiring, cable lengths, and the use of shielded CAT6 Ethernet cables is crucial for the proper functioning and reliability of both electrical and Ethernet installations. The trenching has been completed that will be 18" deep with anticipated conduit one for electrical and one for ethernet.

Project Name: Electrical and Data Cabling Project

Description of Services:
1. Electrical Work, including:
- Running 100A subpanel to workshop with electrical cable from the home's breaker box to the workshop, approximately 6-‘ away from residence.
- Routing electrical cable through walls, drop ceiling, attic space, and exterior walls.
- Trenching has already been completed, running, and burying electrical cable from the residence to the workshop.
- Running power and grounding cables inside the workshop to the current breaker box.
- Troubleshooting existing electrical outlets and lighting in the workshop.
- Diagnostics to ensure proper functionality.

2. Data Cabling (Ethernet) Work, including:
- Running Cat 6 Ethernet cable from the residence to the workshop.
- Routing Ethernet cable through walls, drop ceiling, attic space, and exterior walls.
- Trenching, running, and burying Ethernet cable from the residence to the workshop.
- Running Ethernet cables inside the workshop to the designated router location.
- Running new Ethernet cable from the primary router location to the utility closet for the proposed additional router.
- Ensuring proper termination, testing, and labeling of all Ethernet connections.
- Diagnostics to ensure proper functionality.

3. Electrical and Data Diagnostics:
- Comprehensive testing of all newly installed components.
- Diagnostic testing of existing electrical outlets, lighting, and data connections.

Payment Details:
Deposit: $1200.00
Final Payment: $1645.00

Payment Methods: Venmo or Cash

Workmanship Warranty:
[Contractor's Name] provides a Workmanship Warranty covering the quality of the electrical work. The warranty period is from TBD.

Terms and Conditions:
- The deposit is due upon acceptance of this proposal.
- The final payment is due upon completion of the project and client satisfaction.
- Any additional costs from approved addendums are included in the final payment.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Do not use shielded ethernet between buildings. the vast majority of contractors (including low voltage data contractors) do not understand how to properly terminate shielded cable, and you MAY NOT land the drain wire on two separate ground planes (e.g. two different structure grounds). in the event of a fault (even with a common ground point as a sub-panel), your shield still becomes an additional path for fault current to flow to ground.

Use fiber for inter-building ethernet. singlemode fiber is cheap and has "unlimited bandwidth", SFPs are cheap. glass and plastic do not conduct electricity or pick up electrical noise.

 

[dcg9381]

I have to agree with the above, largely because I don't know how to properly terminate shielded cable between two buildings. And I have lost devices to "nearby" lightening strikes due to having long Ethernet in the ground. Doing it again, I'd run fiber between the buildings and then convert it back to Ethernet using PoE dongles where it enters/exits the building... You can do SFP (which are fiber adapters at the switch) but most of us dont have SFP cable routers/switches or the ability to configure and debug them. Just use unifi devices like this:

 

[bronc076]

Yes, what U3b3 said, run fiber. If you can't run fiber and you run shielded twisted pair, only terminate the drain at 1 end. Also, I'm not sure what the spec is but the data cable needs to be some distance from the power cable in the trench or you will get noise on the line.

I worked in government telecommunications centers for a majority of the 1990s installing telecommunications cables, fiber, and then very new to the world ethernet cable. Pay attention to the interference that run is exposed to or you will have a crappy connection.

 

[Armstrong2024]

Ok, so essentially I need to clarify the project ethernet cabling to: Install approximately 100' of fiber optic cable for a home network project that involves fiber installation from a home router location inside the home to an underground trenched conduit to a detached workshop to an WiFi router. Any specs on cable and associated equipment I should consider on this aspect of the project? Links to products would be helpful. Also, what quests or information should I ask regarding a contractor to complete this project?

 

[mikedodge]

Beyond getting a network cable in some form to the shop building I wouldn't bother doing anything beyond that. Everything is wireless these days. Bring the cable in to a router or wireless access point of some sort and call it done. Possibly rough in a blank box for data if you're going to put a TV in there.

I have a wifi repeater on the outside of my shop to get to the next building which is over 100 feet away. I was going to run cable but never got around to it yet.

 

[manwithtools]

Agree with @mikedodge at 100' I would seriously look at wifi extender or today even mesh hardware. I've got excellent coverage over 150' outside my house with my Eero's equipment.

BTW, if you do go wired, there is very little concern with interference from AC power wiring. Today's equipment is not sensitive to the small amounts of potentially induced interference. We build electrical control panels with hundreds of feet of 3 phase 480 volt high amperage wiring with lots ethernet cable right next to it with no issues.

 

[Armstrong2024]

Beyond getting a network cable in some form to the shop building I wouldn't bother doing anything beyond that. Everything is wireless these days. Bring the cable in to a router or wireless access point of some sort and call it done. Possibly rough in a blank box for data if you're going to put a TV in there.

I have a wifi repeater on the outside of my shop to get to the next building which is over 100 feet away. I was going to run cable but never got around to it yet.

Mike, I think your prob right on this although if it was beyond 100' I think fiber would be the way to go.

Gregory

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Ok, so essentially I need to clarify the project ethernet cabling to: Install approximately 100' of fiber optic cable for a home network project that involves fiber installation from a home router location inside the home to an underground trenched conduit to a detached workshop to an WiFi router. Any specs on cable and associated equipment I should consider on this aspect of the project? Links to products would be helpful. Also, what quests or information should I ask regarding a contractor to complete this project?

it doesn't really matter if it's hobby use or if it's a mini datacenter in your garage. fiber isn't expensive (an OS2 30m / 98' patch cord is $15), and you can use pre-term (basically an appropriately rated patch cord) and pull it through the pipe with a string, just like you would copper. Pretty much all you have to do with fiber is not kink it or get the ends dirty - just leave the dust caps on until you're ready to plug it in.

I've done much longer runs with PtP wireless, but wired/fibered is always preferable from a reliability and "no fuss" standpoint.


my $0.02 on the wire is to put in UTP cat 6A (easily available at $0.25/ft). that'll get you 10/5/2.5 gig capabilities. the most important part of data cable installation is... the installer. not kinking it, stretching it, and following the termination instructions to the T.

 

[bronc076]

Agree with @mikedodge at 100' I would seriously look at wifi extender or today even mesh hardware. I've got excellent coverage over 150' outside my house with my Eero's equipment.

BTW, if you do go wired, there is very little concern with interference from AC power wiring. Today's equipment is not sensitive to the small amounts of potentially induced interference. We build electrical control panels with hundreds of feet of 3 phase 480 volt high amperage wiring with lots ethernet cable right next to it with no issues.

Wireless would most likely be sufficient however if it's a metal building with a metal roof (like I'm having built) I'd be concerned about attenuation, but that can be solved with an external antenna.

I looked in NEC 800 and it says 2" from what I can see, but that's talking about coax, and I'm not an expert at the NEC book so I don't know their requirement and cant find it for STP cable. I know in the DoD we do 12" but that is UTP and some of that might be security concerns and not just interferance. Either way, I'm surprised you guys put data cables and power cables in close proximity for long runs. I'm talking about long runs, not just sharing a short space. I reread the OPs post and it looks like his building is 60 something feet away from the house? I'd definitely have some dirt between the two plastic conduits. I read 20 volts on an unused ungrounded conductor in a piece of 14-3 in a switch to ceiling light circuit in my home.

I'm going to have a dedicated conduit with a couple pre-terminated duplex fibers going from the Cisco switch in my garage to the Cisco switch in the shop. Then I can do vlans and other necessary things for my home lab networks, internet facing systems, and restricted network for IOT devices that I don't trust. My GF and I are both cybersecuiry folks and have a significant amount of home lab equipment and will have home offices in the new building. Most folks probably just want to stream music.

If one is digging a trench, and running conduit, he specifically said "future proof," fiber is the way to go. Also eliminates another conductive path between the two buildings.

Two of these so you have a spare pair if something happens, should pull through 1" conduit

https://www.amazon.com/Jeirdus-100f...-30Meters/dp/B07VWVBHCF/?tag=atomicindus08-20

and something like this at each end. Not endorsing this specific one, just showing as an example.

https://www.amazon.com/Converter-SFP-Transceiver-20KM-ipolex/dp/B0719HS31P/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[manwithtools]

@bronc076 I would not advocate running the data and power cables in the same raceway in the case of the OP. NEC will allow you to do that if all the cables have insulation voltage rating greater than the highest voltage potential. In other words you would need cat 6 rated for 600 volts if it's in with 480 volt cabling, Belden and others make such cable but it's pretty expensive.

There are many instances in home and commercial construction where data cables and power share the same general space, typically with no issues. You are correct that keeping them spaced apart for long parallel runs is best practice. Yes, fiber is the best media of all in this instance. Also fiber and converters are so inexpensive these days, it's the best way to go to maximize throughput and eliminate conductive pathways.

 

[dcg9381]

Links to products would be helpful. Also, what quests or information should I ask regarding a contractor to complete this project?

When fiber went in at my parents place this summer, they put in an ethernet powered (PoE) fiber to Cat6 module. I believe it was this one:

https://dl.ubnt.com/ds/uf-ae

You match the fiber type to the SPF "plug".. I'll let someone else recommend. But it's pretty dead dog easy and because it's powered by ethernet, no 120V stuff is necessary.

I've done wireless hauls over 100 feet and you can make them work fine. They work for **** INSIDE of steel shells, get interrupted by weather and you need line of sight. I'd do fiber first.. Even ethernet would be better, IMHO... It can work, but it'll never be as solid as a wire / fiber.

 

[bronc076]

I'd do point to point wireless to an existing building that already had everything buried, but if you have an open trench, use it. At my place in AZ when I built the shop in the back yard and had a 3' deep ditch over 100' long to the house I put a pipe in there that I could hook an air line to out back, and air up tires in my house garage in addition to power, water, natural gas, and a conduit with 3 runs of cat6e, my son still uses it for internet out there.

Conduit is cheaper than trenching. Bury it now while you can! And make it large enough that if you need to pull something new through in the future you can. Although single mode fiber will be relevant for the foreseeable future.

 

[rdoty]

Consider running 2-3 Cat6 cables out to the workshop. Cat6 is great for telephone (POTS) and connecting security systems as well as networking. Many security systems use RS-485 serial communications for things like keypads and extenders. If you have security cameras you might also want to run them on a separate physical network. Having a spare doesn't hurt.

You might also consider a run of coax if you want TV in the workshop.

Fibre to the workshop for networking makes sense. You are in an area that gets a fair number of thunderstorms, so it wouldn't hurt.

Run a 1-1/2" to 2" conduit. I ran 1" and it is just too small.

 

[dave*99]

Consider running 2-3 Cat6 cables out to the workshop. Cat6 is great for telephone (POTS) and connecting security systems as well as networking. Many security systems use RS-485 serial communications for things like keypads and extenders. If you have security cameras you might also want to run them on a separate physical network. Having a spare doesn't hurt.

You might also consider a run of coax if you want TV in the workshop.

Fibre to the workshop for networking makes sense. You are in an area that gets a fair number of thunderstorms, so it wouldn't hurt.

Run a 1-1/2" to 2" conduit. I ran 1" and it is just too small.

Seems contradictory. Fiber to avoid lightning damage....and coax will negate the benefit.

 

[rdoty]

Seems contradictory. Fiber to avoid lightning damage....and coax will negate the benefit.

Not entirely - the different cables are connected to different things. There are millions of miles of copper cable connecting telephones that seem to work fine. RS485 serial communications is widely used in industrial environments. CATV installations use millions of miles of coax both above ground and below ground.

In my location (New England) I'm not terribly concerned about lightning. I considered the risks and then ran Cat6 for network, telephone, and security system plus coax for TV. My only regret is running undersized conduit.

Other locations, particularly where they have a lot of thunderstorms and dry, rocky ground need to be more concerned about lightning strikes.

Fibre for networking has become widely available and cheap enough to be used for runs to the workshop. If you are concerned, run fibre. I'm not aware of similar solutions for POTS or RS485.

 

[dave*99]

I've helped a few people recover their premises after nearby lightning strikes occurred. Most times the lightning entered (or perhaps exited) through the CATV system. Wiped out the VCR, cable modem, home theater, and some other consumer electronics. Bonding of CATV systems has been poor in some locations.

So if you are running fiber between buildings to avoid lightning issues, and since TV streaming is so accessible, it would be easy to skip coax for CATV. If you use antennas instead of CATV, you have other options.

 

[mikedodge]

It sounds like Gregory only needs ethernet but maybe the rest is something to think about.

If an alarm is going in it would be worth talking with the company to find out what they need. If it's treated as a separate system or a connection to a main alarm panel in the house.

I'm not sure how relevant coax is anymore. Our TV service is all wifi. Even with cable for specialty channels you can stream them. I went for several years with no cable to the TV I use the most.

 

[dave*99]

New houses in my area usually have a coax drop to the cable modem only.
No POTS drop. If there is a house phone it’s on VOIP.
Cat6 and WIFi is predominant.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Not entirely - the different cables are connected to different things. There are millions of miles of copper cable connecting telephones that seem to work fine. RS485 serial communications is widely used in industrial environments. CATV installations use millions of miles of coax both above ground and below ground.

In my location (New England) I'm not terribly concerned about lightning. I considered the risks and then ran Cat6 for network, telephone, and security system plus coax for TV. My only regret is running undersized conduit.

Other locations, particularly where they have a lot of thunderstorms and dry, rocky ground need to be more concerned about lightning strikes.

Fibre for networking has become widely available and cheap enough to be used for runs to the workshop. If you are concerned, run fibre. I'm not aware of similar solutions for POTS or RS485.

and there is a LOT of effort that goes into properly grounding and bonding for surge protection/diversion on that.

these may look familiar:


or perhaps this for a larger building:

(100 pair gas block protection)

 

[b-boy]

Do not use shielded ethernet between buildings. the vast majority of contractors (including low voltage data contractors) do not understand how to properly terminate shielded cable, and you MAY NOT land the drain wire on two separate ground planes (e.g. two different structure grounds). in the event of a fault (even with a common ground point as a sub-panel), your shield still becomes an additional path for fault current to flow to ground.

Use fiber for inter-building ethernet. singlemode fiber is cheap and has "unlimited bandwidth", SFPs are cheap. glass and plastic do not conduct electricity or pick up electrical noise.

I agree 100% with the fiber recommendation. It's cheap, easy to install, and future proof. I'd spend a little more to get outdoor rated fiber.

 

[KSJeff]

I've PMd a few large low voltage installs for some large call centers and here's what I would do.

Ethernet is really about labor so where I'm running 1 ethernet cable, I generally run 2. Not a big deal internally, but from the house to the shop, I'd run at least two ethernet runs. I personally woun't mess with fibre, but if you do, I'd run ethernet as well. I'd ask them to run a couple of pull strings as well so you can pull cable if you need to in the future.

Id terminate all my shop runs on a patch panel (including my feeder runs from the house) and make sure you get a good cable test/report after the install.

I'd grab a good consumer unmanged switch (you pick the manufacturer - I generally just use netgear/tplink or whatever 24 port switch I can find at a good price) and a good wifi 6 access point. I run a seperate SSID in my shop so I can verify my wifi connections to avoid sticking to the house AP and getting a bad signal in my shop.

If you want to see the network on the internet, I've been using some of the TP Link Omada stuff and it works pretty well and is easy to setup. Low cost of entry with the controller at $99 and I run four of their APs and they have been rock solid.

I'd keep it pretty simple. No real need to be complicated here. Just my .02.

 

[u2slow]

Cat5 cable is rated to 100 meters, not 100 feet. Cat 5E and 6 may actually perform beyond that at less than Gb speed

I went with outdoor cat 5e, and ran it together with armoured direct-burial power cable, so there's no interference. Code or not... dont care; it's working for me. Wifi doesn't penetrate the steel roof and siding on my shop.

 

[dcg9381]

Wifi doesn't penetrate the steel roof and siding on my shop.

Wifi penetration of steel shops is very very poor.. I've got a WAP above my pump house and signal is "poor" in the pump house.
Whole reason there is a WAP there is because the one in the shop won't penetrate outside the shop.

 

[u2slow]

Wifi penetration of steel shops is very very poor.. I've got a WAP above my pump house and signal is "poor" in the pump house.
Whole reason there is a WAP there is because the one in the shop won't penetrate outside the shop.

Yup... I have a WAP inside the shop for this reason.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not entirely - the different cables are connected to different things. There are millions of miles of copper cable connecting telephones that seem to work fine. RS485 serial communications is widely used in industrial environments. CATV installations use millions of miles of coax both above ground and below ground.

In my location (New England) I'm not terribly concerned about lightning. I considered the risks and then ran Cat6 for network, telephone, and security system plus coax for TV. My only regret is running undersized conduit.

Other locations, particularly where they have a lot of thunderstorms and dry, rocky ground need to be more concerned about lightning strikes.

Fibre for networking has become widely available and cheap enough to be used for runs to the workshop. If you are concerned, run fibre. I'm not aware of similar solutions for POTS or RS485.

while they may be connected to different things, they all share a common connection point and that is power. wouldnt be hard for lightning to traverse coax from the shop into the home thru a cable device and then into other equipment that isnt connected via coax

 

[Armstrong2024]

I'd do point to point wireless to an existing building that already had everything buried, but if you have an open trench, use it. At my place in AZ when I built the shop in the back yard and had a 3' deep ditch over 100' long to the house I put a pipe in there that I could hook an air line to out back, and air up tires in my house garage in addition to power, water, natural gas, and a conduit with 3 runs of cat6e, my son still uses it for internet out there.

Conduit is cheaper than trenching. Bury it now while you can! And make it large enough that if you need to pull something new through in the future you can. Although single mode fiber will be relevant for the foreseeable future.

No interest in Point to Point, the increased latency isn't worth it...especially if telework from garage.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

No interest in Point to Point, the increased latency isn't worth it...especially if telework from garage.

i don't think you'd notice one extra hop. probably wouldn't even add a single millisecond.

 

[bronc076]

i don't think you'd notice one extra hop. probably wouldn't even add a single millisecond.

Agree, latency is not an issue. Bandwidth maybe but cost and complexity are the major downers, unless one likes hanging antennas and running coax, then I guess it's a plus!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No interest in Point to Point, the increased latency isn't worth it...especially if telework from garage.

as someone who has installed countless PtPs for numerous customers, i can guarantee you that there is no latency on a properly setup system.

Ive got customers backhualing camera systems over PtP radios.

The internet at my shop is ran over a PtP.

no latency issues.

Did you know cell towers operate over PtP radios?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Agree, latency is not an issue. Bandwidth maybe but cost and complexity are the major downers, unless one likes hanging antennas and running coax, then I guess it's a plus!

huh? with todays modern PtP radios, bandwidth is definitely not an issue, nor is complexity.

Also, network PtP radios do not use coax, they use ethernet cabling IE CAT6 cable.

you sir are stuck in the 90s

Ubiquiti Store United States

ReThinking IT

store.ui.com

 

[bronc076]

Willie, a p2p radio system has more parts, is more expensive, and is more work to install than a fiber in the OP's situation, especially when one already has a trench for power, water, etc. The potential for failure is also greater. I'm not knocking wireless systems, I've worked in telecommunications, networking, and now cybersecurity for my entire adult life. A video system at a campus, networking to an existing structure where trenching would be required, and literally hundreds of other scenarios wireless wins every time. OP has a ditch.

I may be stuck in the mid 2000s to tell the truth.

i believe we are in violent agreement! .

 

[u3b3rg33k]

as someone who has installed countless PtPs for numerous customers, i can guarantee you that there is no latency on a properly setup system.

Ive got customers backhualing camera systems over PtP radios.

The internet at my shop is ran over a PtP.

no latency issues.

Did you know cell towers operate over PtP radios?

"back in the day" when dialup was all you could get in the mountains, I did a 2.4GHz link through the forest with the giant ubnt panel antennas. worked great unless it was raining. i wish they hadn't killed off the 900MHz gear. did a few rocket9 + yagi setups.

I'll still take fiber if I can get it, but unifi sells pre-paired near gig throughput radio sets for $500. I couldn't have dreamed that up 20 years ago.

 

[Innovate1]

I say fiber between buildings. If there is much routing and fishing of wire to the connection point inside the building then put the converter near where the fiber enters the building and switch to copper. I don't have much experience with fiber and that's what I did. I didn't want to worry about damaging the fiber for a bunch of routing. If you run low voltage copper for other things put surge suppressors on both ends and ground them with short, substantial wires to the building ground - for me that was right next to the power panels so was convenient. Use large radius sweeps for all the conduits - it will make the pull easier and less likely to cut through the conduit if PVC. You didn't mention if this was new construction but it sounds like it is - much easier to run cables when things are open during construction. But it also sounds like it includes some distribution of network on one and possibly both ends - a bit more detail on that would be useful.

 

[Pompey]

As an aside, I believe that 240V cable in PVC conduit must be buried at least 18 inches deep. This will be to the top of the conduit. So if you are using 2 inch conduit then the trench will need to be 20 inches deep. I mention this since you stated in your first post that your trench was 18 inches deep. You will need to increase this depth of the trench by the diameter of your conduit.

 

[72Anthony]

I didn't see much on the line voltage devices: 120/240 volt receptacles or switches for lighting.

I'd put together sketch of the floor plan showing location of devices, which devices are on dedicated circuit. Receptacle height should be specified.

Some additional items to consider:

Three way switches for lighting if you have more than one entrance.

Exterior lighting, maybe have a photocell so lights come on at night.

120 and 240 circuits in the ceiling for cord reels and equipment such as a lift or table saw.

Receptacle for garage door opener (ceiling for conventional, wall for jack shaft opener). Include low voltage wiring for door sensors.

Future outdoor HVAC circuit and shut-off.

120 volt outdoor receptacles: at least one per side.

 

[Metal-Marc]

As an aside, I believe that 240V cable in PVC conduit must be buried at least 18 inches deep. This will be to the top of the conduit. So if you are using 2 inch conduit then the trench will need to be 20 inches deep. I mention this since you stated in your first post that your trench was 18 inches deep. You will need to increase this depth of the trench by the diameter of your conduit.

As an aside, this is an old thread and OP is gone.