Worried my barn will be condemned- permit strategy?

[polar8]

I just bought a home in San Jose CA. There is a great old barn in the back yard, about 26x14ft and quite tall- it has a loft. It was built around 1920, and doesn't have a foundation, or much of a frame at that. Just a sill plate on the dirt, board and batten walls which is what the roof is resting on, and some horizontal beams to tie everything together and support the loft.

I would like to convert it to a useful garage, with a concrete slab and drywall interior.

I had my neighbor who is a remodeling contractor come over to give me some advice, and he said if I tried to get a permit, the building would be condemned since it is currently unsafe. Which is probably true, the barn is a bit crooked since some of the boards have rotted at the base which has caused the roof to tilt in that direction.

My neighbor suggested making some improvements to the building (pier footings, adding posts and framing) until it is structurally sound. Then, when I'm ready to get a permit for the slab and electrical, the guy who comes from the city won't make me tear it down.

What do you all think of this strategy?

 

[Showkey]

Make you tear it down ?????

More likely make you make the repairs to make it safe or tear it down the choice would be yours ?????? In the mean time they TAG the building as unsafe and you would not be able to use it ????

If you make structure repairs without a permit and the required inspections would that also cause a HUGE problem with the city ???

Develope a complete plan.......get or make estimates ( double them) and then decide if this barn in worth saving or just start over with a new structure. The new structure might be less expensive and whole lot less hassle.

 

[blacksporty]

I would avoid getting a permit on this at all. They might make you tear it down anyway, then you won't be able to build anything because the current codes won't allow it. People do $100,000 remodels without permit all the time, just go for it.

 

[Jo Diesel]

I would dig and pour the piers. Get building leveled attached to piers. Pour a concrete floor in it.
You need a permit to pour concrete in a shed?
How nosy and how close are your neighbors ?

 

[polar8]

I would avoid getting a permit on this at all. They might make you tear it down anyway, then you won't be able to build anything because the current codes won't allow it. People do $100,000 remodels without permit all the time, just go for it.

Interesting. And my budget for the whole job is under $10k so relatively low risk. What happens when it comes time to resell the house, though? Don't you have to sign something that says all the work done on the house was permitted?

 

[toyotadriver]

Interesting. And my budget for the whole job is under $10k so relatively low risk. What happens when it comes time to resell the house, though? Don't you have to sign something that says all the work done on the house was permitted?

Where I live....not an issue. Do whatever you want. Where you live....don't know about that. In CA, I suspect it will probably be an issue.

Having said that, you say it's old, not structurally sound, and not built correctly anyway. Tear it down and start over. Repairing a structurally sound building can be a potential money pit but a non structurally sound building WILL be a money pit. Bet you can build a new building for the same or less than bringing that building up to safe construction standards.

You mentioned that you want to finish and drywall it. DEFINTELY give up on that building. Dealing with the crooked walls and such will be such a nightmare.

Can you post pics of what you're working with?

 

[ishiboo]

Interesting. And my budget for the whole job is under $10k so relatively low risk. What happens when it comes time to resell the house, though? Don't you have to sign something that says all the work done on the house was permitted?

No. And this isn't the house, right?

Do minor repairs over time. Chances are there's something saying if you spend more than 50% of the value, it has to be brought up to code... and you'll be screwed as it won't be conforming.

 

[Git]

I would avoid getting a permit on this at all. They might make you tear it down anyway, then you won't be able to build anything because the current codes won't allow it. People do $100,000 remodels without permit all the time, just go for it.

I hate to say it - but this is terrible advice

OP - Your have acknowledged that you have an unsafe structure on your property.

Do the right thing before someone gets hurt - (it may be you)

How about a phone call to the Building Department in our area expressing your concerns and how you could go about either bring it into compliance or tear it down and start over

 

[My Old Tools]

Your neighbor knows the area and what needs to be done. Listen to him. He might even help a bit.

 

[beakie]

is the loft "cool" or will you ever expect to use it?

if the beams are large, and the wood is clean, you could probably tear it down, salvage the wood for either re-use... or for sale.

atleast the beams, may be worth something, and all that could be added to your budget.

you can build a nice pole barn for $10k, and know that it is sound and what you want.
if you don't sell the board & battons, use them to return some of the "look" of the original barn.

 

[orangedude]

Normally, I'm in agreement with permitting things.. but san jose.. UGH. live here, been down that road, and done that. Never again unless its something visible from the street. I use licensed contractors and call it good enough for my purpose. And also in san jose, you could end up with a situation where once you tear down a structure, current code won't let you put one back up.. (too close to fence line, too high of density, spotted owl poop found.. etc) .

 

[Casey69]

how is the permitting process in CA? seems like it's pretty loose, which surprise me. don't know if it's manufactured reality tv drama, but i've watched some of the house-flipping episodes where previous owners put on additions, detached garages, elaborate porches, that aren't permitted & it's a poopstorm for the new owner to make it right.

i don't know how they got away with it during the original construction.

 

[Showkey]

Here's another question.........do you have to make the structure earthquake compliant when and if you decide to remodel, fix it up or what ever ??

Barns are code compliant?????? That's not likely ....especially in California!! Any structure is going to be taxed and some or all codes are certainly going to apply like height, set back, use, blah blah

 

[blacksporty]

Interesting. And my budget for the whole job is under $10k so relatively low risk. What happens when it comes time to resell the house, though? Don't you have to sign something that says all the work done on the house was permitted?

I have not seen anything when selling a house asking if there was any work done to the house. Also, how are you to know if the work the last 5 owners had done was permitted of not, how could you reasonably sign something like that.

My last house I had just clearly remodeled the kitchen myself. I never signed anything that said it was permitted, not permitted or anything. Most permits are just revenue generation for the city.

You are just strengthening an existing structure. The electrical, if you are worried about the work you could have permitted but do it after all structural work is done, if you feel the need.

 

[Pointbock]

Was the barn mentioned at all in your recent purchase process? If it didn't cause problems for the last owner, it may not for you. I'd be more worried about...

also in san jose, you could end up with a situation where once you tear down a structure, current code won't let you put one back up.. (too close to fence line, too high of density, spotted owl poop found.. etc) .

I'd take a good look at some of the threads here (one by Fergus comes to mind) and start fixing.

Some things to consider - How long do you plan to stay? Would you have an issue with the barn not adding any value to your home when it's sold?

 

[jetnow1]

The code allows you to make emergency repairs without permits, though you are supposed to get them as soon as possible. I rebuilt my barn to fix the same things
you have over a 3 day weekend, thus when Monday came around it was fixed up
enough they had to give me permits. Just saying...

 

[yukon65006]

I have not seen anything when selling a house asking if there was any work done to the house. Also, how are you to know if the work the last 5 owners had done was permitted of not, how could you reasonably sign something like that.

My last house I had just clearly remodeled the kitchen myself. I never signed anything that said it was permitted, not permitted or anything. Most permits are just revenue generation for the city.

You are just strengthening an existing structure. The electrical, if you are worried about the work you could have permitted but do it after all structural work is done, if you feel the need.

The last 3 places I have sold I have had to sign/initial concerning permits. No one looked to verify if the date code on the electrical cable was newer than the construction date of the house. But I am sure if there was a fire it would be looked at and the new owners could legally come after me if I did not pull the required permit.

 

[ozyborn]

Was in the same boat here when I moved in with my then fiancé , now wife. 30x50 2 story barn. I gutting the inside and braced everything up. Then jacked up one side to level, dug and poured footing. Rebuilt that wall. Then did the same to the other 3. Went upstairs and build some studs walls to help support the roof. 2x4 on 24" centers. Needed some bracing and sistering. Then poured a floor in the center with new garage doors. Refused to get a permit. Never worried about it. Not until I did the electrical then I did for that.
My neighbors were fine with it. I was fixing it up and they loved that.

Some people say permits are good, some bad. Tons of reasons. I just build far better than code and not worry about it.

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

OP, the neighbor seems to have a decent plan for you... and doesn't need to be done over the weekend.. can take as many years as you can afford.. Involve him for a few oat sodas and voila'....

If the building hasn't fallen over all these years, I'd call that earth quake proof in my book (from sitting in relatively earth quake safe Indiana)... lol

 

[TK-421]

What's wrong with tearing it down and building a proper building?

 

[polar8]

What's wrong with tearing it down and building a proper building?

If I tear it down, the new building will end up being smaller and significantly shorter (1 story vs my current 2) to meet my city's building codes for new construction of accessory structures.

So many great replies in this thread, thank you all for the input as I continue to research my situation!

 

[bczygan]

Welcome to GJ!

Don't renovate, repair. Words matter.

Work from inside and hand mix and install proper foundation. Park a vehicle or place something on the outside to hide the work. Do a section at a time.

Replace rotted members one at a time.

But first job is to brace, jack and straighten it. All done from inside. Add additional framing as needed.

Use bolts, screws and metal plates where you can, to avoid noise. Do the work when people are at work. Deliver materials under cover of darkness from an enclosed vehicle like a van that you pull into the structure.

Can you hide it from prying eyes with fencing or landscaping or parked vehicles?

Technically any improvements require a permit, anyting sttructural or electrical, mechanical or plumbing. Here, even roofing and siding and gutters and downspouts over a certain value does.

Photo and video every step, with measurements of the foundation work, in case you ever have to pull a retroactive permit, to show it met code.

Photos?

Bill

 

[Jo Diesel]

 

[rieferman]

In my town, barns are under a different set of rules than homes. Under 1000 square footprint, no permits required for anything. I was totally up front about my barn saving and they didn't want permits or inspections for any of it. Most towns aren't as loosey goosey but it may be worth calling about anonymously.

 

[B_Bimmer]

I believe strongly in permits for clueless people who are a danger for themselves and others whenever they get out of bed. However, people who do their homework, and build things to last forever better than code like myself and probably 80% of the membership on this site should be left alone.

 

[mikeyr]

as far as the city is concerned its a existing building, since you mentioned you just bought the property someone from the city looked at it and put on the papers. So now I would just do the work and not worry about when I resell. The papers likely don't say the existing condition, so pour some concrete piers and get the thing stable. I don't know about San Jose but in Santa Barbara you can pour a slab without a permit, so pour it under the existing building. The only resale worry would be upgraded electrical and drywall since they would know that upgrades were done and those are inexpensive compared to other things so if they complain, remove them when you sell. My last house I built a small shop in the back corner of the lot, I spent $15k doing it knowing I would have to tear it down when i sold but i used it for almost 20 years before tearing it down and selling the property. Sometimes you have to think about how you will enjoy the place and not the money, yes i realize money is always a consideration but having the space made the time spent at that house so much more enjoyable.

 

[ishiboo]

In my town, barns are under a different set of rules than homes. Under 1000 square footprint, no permits required for anything. I was totally up front about my barn saving and they didn't want permits or inspections for any of it. Most towns aren't as loosey goosey but it may be worth calling about anonymously.

This is San Jose with a million people, they most certainly have much stricter rules about "barns" in a residential area.

 

[mike in tucson]

What about property tax ramifications involved in "remodel" vs "tear it down and start over"? Seems like you could get a larger tax bill if it were a new build.

 

[manwithtools]

I believe strongly in permits for clueless people who are a danger for themselves and others whenever they get out of bed. However, people who do their homework, and build things to last forever better than code like myself and probably 80% of the membership on this site should be left alone.

Problem is, how do you tell the difference? Hence the permit process and all the pain it entails. I look at it this way, permits hopefully keep the inept from doing the things that might hurt them or others sometime down the road. I don't like it in many cases but the alternative is not a good plan either.

 

[Zogman]

I just built a garage here in So. Cal and chances are the permit process up there is similar. If you go to permit anything on that building, they will more than likely make you bring the entire building up to code for everything. And that goes all the way to interior sprinklers. Normally flatwork (slabs) don't need permits so shore up your building and make it plumb and safe again. See if your neighbors get nosey at all and judge your next step by that. Not sure of the scope you are looking to do but if the rest of the work is interior, then make sure you build it as close to code as possible for everyones sake.

 

[yhprum]

I am on the stealth fix side, a bit at a time. Its been there long enough I would think to be grandfathered. You may not be allowed to put back a similar structure if you go new.

 

[ishiboo]

Problem is, how do you tell the difference? Hence the permit process and all the pain it entails. I look at it this way, permits hopefully keep the inept from doing the things that might hurt them or others sometime down the road. I don't like it in many cases but the alternative is not a good plan either.

The problem is the building could very well be non-conforming. Which means it would have to be brought up to current building codes/standards/etc. It could be too tall, have too much square footage, or be completely non-allowed and have to be torn down.

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

I am on the stealth fix side, a bit at a time. Its been there long enough I would think to be grandfathered. You may not be allowed to put back a similar structure if you go new.

I agree here... who's to say it wasn't what it soon will be, when you purchased the home.. unless there are picts of record someplace.....

 

[manwithtools]

The problem is the building could very well be non-conforming. Which means it would have to be brought up to current building codes/standards/etc. It could be too tall, have too much square footage, or be completely non-allowed and have to be torn down.

I get that. My comment was not about this particular situation, it was about how do we tell the difference between the competent and the incompetent when it comes to who is required to get a permit and who is not. I was asking B_Bimmer how we know who should get a permit and who shouldn't? I was simply challenging his logic. My response has nothing to do with the OP.

For the OP's situation I see the point about him repairing the building to avoid the denial of a new build without asking for permission first. I'm not challenging that point at all, that's up to him.

I was responding to this:

I believe strongly in permits for clueless people who are a danger for themselves and others whenever they get out of bed. However, people who do their homework, and build things to last forever better than code like myself and probably 80% of the membership on this site should be left alone.

Furthermore, that's why I live in the country. On a dead end road. Surrounded by trees. In a state far from either coast.

 

[VocaTexas]

I am SO glad I live where I do. I can build anything I want on my own land and nobody can say a damn thing about it. No permits, no engineers, no idiot pencil-pusher from city hall.

If this was my building, I'd do the 'stealth rebuild' as well. From what the OP said, it needs a bit of TLC, not torn down and replaced. Bureaucrats could go **** an egg.

 

[tarmy]

I happen to get entitlements for the evil developers in San Jose for a living. That barn will be, if not already, on the roster for eligibility for historic structures.

The City will require analysis by historic professionals before you can do anything...and I mean anything. They have flown the city and use aerial photos to find these types of structures (goggle earth is not your friend).

If you demo it or modify the exterior...you may be in for some serious code enforcement issues...and fines. There are very active and litigious organizations that have serious folks that will try to force you to upgrade and preserve...

Be very careful...the laws are there to protect these things...cross the line, get caught...not going to end well for you...there are some things you can do to maybe get what you want done...but these things tend to be expensive, time consuming and ****ing annoying...

Proceed with caution....

 

[bczygan]

I happen to get entitlements for the evil developers in San Jose for a living. That barn will be, if not already, on the roster for eligibility for historic structures.

The City will require analysis by historic professionals before you can do anything...and I mean anything. They have flown the city and use aerial photos to find these types of structures (goggle earth is not your friend).

If you demo it or modify the exterior...you may be in for some serious code enforcement issues...and fines. There are very active and litigious organizations that have serious folks that will try to force you to upgrade and preserve...

Be very careful...the laws are there to protect these things...cross the line, get caught...not going to end well for you...there are some things you can do to maybe get what you want done...but these things tend to be expensive, time consuming and ****ing annoying...

Proceed with caution....

That reminds me of a building here in SE MI.

Historic building owned by a famous entertainer. Wanted to demo it and the city said no. So she had it knocked down anyway. Too late for them to stop it.

Bill

 

[John in OH]

I am on the stealth fix side, a bit at a time. Its been there long enough I would think to be grandfathered. You may not be allowed to put back a similar structure if you go new.

+1 !! Often, in some localities, if you tear down, you may not be able to rebuild due to current code requirements that your new structure may not be able to economically meet.

And, as already mentioned, if anyone asks, you are doing "repairs", not improvements or upgrades. Best for you would be to do the work in "stealth" mode.

 

[Bib Overalls]

Your existing barn is 14' x 26' or 364 square feet. Barely adequite width wise for a single purpose garage.

I looked at the San Jose code/criteria for out buildings.

https://www.sanjoseca.gov/documentcenter/view/1729

It looks like the maximum size without a variance is 650 square feet and no higher than 16 feet. A structure 26'x24', a nice size for a two car garage or a one car and shop building comes in at 624 square feet.

If I were you I'd take the old building down and start over. With garages and shops bigger is almost always better.

I am one of those people who has always played it straight with the building inspectors. I suggest that you call them up and ask for a little face time to talk about a project that you are brainstorming and that you want to discuss options. I have done this several times and the outcome has always been positive. You will be required to provide plans at some point but it looks like they can be simple if you follow usual and customary building practices.

Good luck!

 

[ozyborn]

Historic building organizations. Yea, my garage was originally built back in 1889. They sold tickets out the back for the coal to be delivered and horse boarding. When I first wanted to rebuild .i went to the historical society for help. Not financial but just physical help in it. They did nothing. They would not do anything. So I did it my way myself. Then they had the balls to try and whine afterwards I did not bring it back to " their" standards of what they wanted. Needless to say I told them to go stuff it.
Then mentioned I have several dozen pictures of what it was like back then. No chance they will ever get them in my lifetime.