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Would ceiling insulation help?

CoryB

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Apr 15, 2006
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31
My garage is ~24x32 with a 14 foot ceiling. The walls are cinder block with only 1/2 of one wall shared with the house. The house side of that wall has 1/2" foam board glued to the block for insulation.

The ceiling is sheetrock that has been taped and mudded - no sanding. It is not insulated at all.

At this point in time, I don't have a way ($$$) to stud and insulate the walls of the garage.

Given everything listed, would ceiling insulation help at all? I realize it couldn't hurt, but if it won't help without insulating the walls there's no point in spending the money on it.

Thanks.
 
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Carsonb

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Dec 26, 2009
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Is there a vapor barrier under the sheet rock? If so blown celulose is pretty cheap and a little easier to put in than batts. You'll need raftermtes to vent the soffet past the insulation to the roof or gable vents.
 

D KRAGER

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Oct 16, 2007
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Central IL
Yes ceiling insulation is where to put your money. Heat rises so most of your heat loss occurs in the ceiling!!!!! Blow in some cellulose insulation up there, it's cheap and easy to do.
 

Garyl53

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Oct 25, 2009
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Colorado
I would insulate the sealing and caulk/seal everywhere else. Caulk and sealing is not expensive and it will cut down on heat loss.
 
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CoryB

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Apr 15, 2006
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Is there a vapor barrier under the sheet rock? If so blown celulose is pretty cheap and a little easier to put in than batts. You'll need raftermtes to vent the soffet past the insulation to the roof or gable vents.

No vapor barrier - just sheetrock nailed to ceiling joists. The roof already has ridge vents. I guess I'll be doing batts then.
 

Garys Garage

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Nov 17, 2008
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il
Just finished blowing in 18 in of fiberglass and new steel ceiling. I dont know how much money it has saved me but shop is much more comfortable. I am guessing 10 degree average.
 

aim

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Nov 10, 2009
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Why the vapor barrier question? Ceilings are NOT supposed to have a vapor barrier.
Laying in batts is a good way but blown in will seal up better. Before you do it yourself I'd call around to insulation companies. We have a couple around here that are very affordable. I built a garage last year for a customer and hired one of them to blow the ceiling. Installed price was $50 more than my cost just for the insulation. They showed up with the equipment all set up in the back of a large box truck. Literally about 2 hours later they were cleaned up and gone.
 

Nutty 5.0

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SE PA
Definately put up some! I had my walls done before ceiling and heat would never stay. After it was up it keeps the heat in.
 
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Carsonb

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Dec 26, 2009
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Well boys I don't know a single building inspector that'd gonna sign off on a building with an incomplete vapor barrier, check you local code or give them a call. Insulation companies don't make the rules. No skin off my nose but we've had to replace all sorts of attic insulation because there was no vapor barrier. Your milage may vary.
 

aim

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Nov 10, 2009
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I guess I won't argue this until I can find out if something has changed that I'm not aware of but the last I knew in Ohio. Vapor barriers on walls only.
I have been in the construction business for 22 years now and have never ever put vb in a ceiling. They claim it is a way to reduce moisture within by allowing it to escape through the ceiling.
I will say though that 90% of my work is commercial/ industrial so many times there is not a conventional ceiling but rather a suspended ceiling within the factory. Last time I did a residential project that required inspection (about 2 years ago) it was vb on walls only.
 

porschedude996TT

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Santa Maria, California
Well boys I don't know a single building inspector that'd gonna sign off on a building with an incomplete vapor barrier, check you local code or give them a call. Insulation companies don't make the rules. No skin off my nose but we've had to replace all sorts of attic insulation because there was no vapor barrier. Your milage may vary.

This argument may never be solved, but one thing that comes to mind about the inspector is this is not living space, it is a garage. Therefore the inspector should not consider the lack of a vapor barrier. It is not conditioned living space.

It my case with my separate shop build I didn't put in a vapor barrier. The only time I am going to heat it is when I am out in the shop on a very cold day or when I have a party out in the shop. I don't think it really would make a difference in a garage with a 8' x 7' door on one end and a 12' x 7' door on the other end.
 

Carsonb

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Dec 26, 2009
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I'm in Ontario been in general contracting since I was a kid so 30 years or so added HVAC to my licenses 10 years ago. I can't see how moving your dew point into the insulation is going to do anything but make a mess of the insulation eventually.
 

Rosco

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Jan 4, 2009
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South Georgia
Not trying to hijack.....

When you discuss vapor barrier are you talking about plastic or paper on the sheetrock side of the insulation? I am getting ready to insulate my garage that has a bonus room upstairs. Should I put a vapor barrier on the ceiling before after the insulation and before the sheetrock?

In the bonus room I am using R-19 bat for the rafters. Would a vapor barrier help there also? I am aware of the venting required in the rafters behind the insulation. I am building a solid cavity vent. Basically 1X2 strips down each rafter against the roof sheathing covered by 3/4 inch blue DOW board. Gives me approx. 1.5 inches of vent in each cavity from eave to attic (8X10 rafters), R-4 for the DOW board and room left for R-19 6" bat insulation.

Am I in the right direction? I do not mind covering it all on the inside with a plastic vapor barrier if that will help.
 

tcianci

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Feb 7, 2009
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Walpole, Ma
And I thought this was going to be a dull day! If you have the rock up there and there is no VB, there are 2 things you can do. All you insulation **** types can skip right to the next post NOW. This sounds simple so I know some guys won't be happy with it... Install FG paper or foil faced bats with the facing toward the heated space, take care to make sure you tuck the facing down so it lays as flat as possible to the back of the Sheetrock, then finish and paint the ceiling with a paint that is specifically designed to be a vapor retarder. Most latex paints are vapor retarders but there are some that specifically state this property in the label. The the purpose of the VB is to protect the R value of the insulation product. That's why the insulation manufacturers apply it to their product, it keeps the insulation dry and therefore ensures performance.

To the questions posed by poster #15, It's probably as tossup as to which side the VB should go on in your situation. I would take a shot at determining which conditioned space has the potential for generating the most moisture and which space is going to be the coldest most of the time. My bet is on the garage side. The conditioned space above the garage means that the insulation in what is now your floor will be warmer in the bonus room side, the surface of the insulation being against the warm floor would help to prevent that side of the insulation to drop below the dew point. This doesn't jibe with the "standard" install recommendations, but you don't have a "standard" situation. My theory is since the VB is designed to prevent moisture from reaching the insulation where it can condense and degrade the R value, and since the garage side will usually be colder. I would install it that way. Some may feel that you many not need any VB at all. I think that would be true if both sides of the insulation were typically heated all the time.
 

aim

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Nov 10, 2009
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I wanted to wait till today to confirm my thinking on vapor barriers in the ceilings. I questioned my VERY qualified local lumber yard owner who keeps up on Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana codes. In this area and any other area where humidity is a concern, You do NOT install a vapor barrier in the ceiling of any structure that has a vented attic or a space between the insul and roof line. The thinking here is to allow moisture to travel through to the attic and be vented out to the outside versus growing mold on your walls and ceilings.
He said in the far north and southwest drier climates they may be doing things differently but for here, NO vapor barrier in the ceiling is the way to go.
My suggestion to the original poster is to check with a local contractor or lumber yard and follow the recommendations for your area.
 
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scopx

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Jan 4, 2010
Messages
37
My 02 pennies. Did build garage with apartment upstairs and placed VB between metal roof panels and interior when installing. Was amazed at the amount of condensation that would accumulate each morning. I did finish off by then installing 6" of insulation from the bottom side . I know, I did it backwards. But hell, I even dance backwards.
 

jumpingryan

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Jan 17, 2009
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89
Location
Ontario, Canada
I agree with checking the local codes in your area...... different parts of the US and parts of Canada have different codes based on the weather, safety, and fire risks. Don't assume that where you are is reflective to other areas across the internet.

Things I would start to consider when making any garage finishing choices:

1) You change in temperature from outside to in (your weather and heating/cooling)

2) Local fire codes (for both inspection and/or insurance reasons)

3) Safety (undrywalled vapour barrier can be a fire hazard, even if fireproof insulation is behind it).

4) How far you want to go (drywall, taped and finished, painted, etc), or just insulation and vapour barrier (not a good idea for long).

5) Money and time spent in the garage (how long are you in there vs cost of your improvements; how much *** pain it is to insulate and bring up to a higher standard)

6) Are you finished everything that you want to put behind the walls (electrical, plumbing, etc etc.)?

7) Quality of finish. Will the vapour barried be tuck taped at all joints? Does it meet with tape to the ceiling vapour barrier, and acoustical sealant at the sill plate on the floor. These steps if not done can come to bite you in certain circumstances dependant on your garage environment vs the outside environment. One person may have zero problems, and the guy across the street may have problems in a comparable setup! Things like mould and air movement could pop up.

8) Heating/cooling unit (and cost of). With a less insulated space, you will likely need a larger heating unit.....

In Canada, we have vapour barrier everywhere there is insulation. Spray foam does not require a vapour barrier, and it is bad to put up any double vapour barriers where moisture can be trapped such as adding vapour barrier to spay foam.

The temperature changes are varied where I am. The low is expected to be -10 degrees Celsius (14 degrees fahrenheit) tonight in my area of Quinte West, Ontario (and snowing!).

The part that is imported to remember, where hot meets cold, there is moisture. If your house/garage is not wrapped or not properly wrapped on the outside, there is lots outside air movement (dirty insulation usually indicates this). An outside wrap around the house that allows NO air movement (2 layers of vapour barrier) is a bad thing, as it traps moisture.... so you need SOME air movement or ventilation, but not a lot. There are building wrap products out there that do this, but they are NOT a replacement for vapour barrier.

It makes sense to me, that the wider the temperature difference between inside and outside, the more moisture forms. So in Canada, or NY state, things will be different than Texas in the winter.

My current house is 1 year old. In my attached 21 X 26 garage, I have walls that have vapour barrier, insulated, drywalled walls next to any portion of the house that is part of the interior. The attic access is in the garage. This finishing of interior garage walls is likely due to fire codes. The house was wrapped with an exterior wrap that allows air movement, but keeps water from driving in from the outside of the house to the wood framing/sheeting.

The ceiling part of my house is insulated (blown in) and vapour barrier, and the garage ceiling is only vapour barrier and drywall with no blown in insulation..... likely to stop air movement and fumes from coming over to the house side. (and if I ever finish the garage completely, makes things easier to blow in).

In older homes in Canada, (having previously owned one built in the 1930's), there is often no insulation, insulation with a paper vapour barrier attached to the insulation, or insulation with no vapour barrier. Usually there is a big mix of it all if the house was modernized. One thing to consider with older homes, is the plaster walls, or old drywall walls have MANY layers of oil based paint and primer, that can act as sort of vapour barrier..... although it is debatable as to the effectiveness of that sort of vapour barrier.

Have a good day from the cold zone.....

R
 
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