Would this load center location pass code?

[Skiff Builder]

Need a new service in order to feed new shop build. Existing panel is in a closet ( door shown in picture) and back to back with meter on outside of house.
If I can place new panel here I can keep the cable from meter under 3' in length.
What do you think?



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[Stuff]

Nope - need nothing below. Not only baseboard heater you have bump-out framed.

 

[FreddiFiche]

Nope - need nothing below. Not only baseboard heater you have bump-out framed.

Not arguing, trying to learn....where in NEC does it disallow bumped out framing. Going of memory, but I seem to recall hundreds of houses that a stud wall was placed on 6 courses of block, during the 80's. (Particular style of house a local builder was pooping out left an right.) There wasn't a full wall anywhere in the basement. Did NEC change at some point?

 

[Dagny]

Run it by your inspector.

 

[FreddiFiche]

Run it by your inspector.

This is my thought too....If they good with it, that's all that matters.

As i sat here thinking about it, a lighting panel in Motor Control Center would be 'set back' more than 4", which is about what your looking at with a stud wall above a block stub wall. Obviously, that's a industrial setting, but if NEC really didn't allow, it would apply to MCC's as well, I bet.

The baseboard heater does extend that 'reach' quite a bit though. In the track homes I was remembering , it WAS clear space to block wall, without anything pushing you further back.

 

[Bert_]

Not arguing, trying to learn....where in NEC does it disallow bumped out framing. Going of memory, but I seem to recall hundreds of houses that a stud wall was placed on 6 courses of block, during the 80's. (Particular style of house a local builder was pooping out left an right.) There wasn't a full wall anywhere in the basement. Did NEC change at some point?

He's basing that on the working space requirement. I have not met an inspector that would even consider that wall a violation, the heater maybe.

The inspector I usually deal with is VERY lenient about working space if you are replacing a panel and leaving it in the original location.

Ask and you will find out what you can do. Just out of curiosity why exactly do you need to replace the panel?

 

[Alchymist]

Move the heater, make a full bump out to ceiling and bring panel out flush.

 

[mm08822]

Run it by your inspector.

Agreed.

I also see the door as a problem if that happens to be a walk in closet. Someone could be in the closet, door shut and then decide to exit. Door could be opened and push somebody into the open panel.

The working space in front of the panel is from the plane of the panel cover. That bump out and the heater are intruding.

It's up to your inspector. Show him that pic and alternate options.

A stated, moving the heater or installing a shorter one is a good compromise.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like a siemens or muray.

Why are you replacing it?

 

[ard]

Not sure what you are trying to solve, by moving the existing service 3 feet over....

Are you going from 200 to 320A or from 28 spaces to 42?

 

[Skiff Builder]

The house is a typical 2100' bi level with block stem wall all around perimeter. Hydronic heat loop also runs the perimeter.
Prev owners built a small closet around the panel.

Existing service
100 amp. #2 copper feeds top lugs panel
1966 vintage I.T.E. panel- Split Bus using 6 throw rule- no main breaker.
Panel full from our day one in house.
30 amp bkr-Oven, 30 amp bkr-cooktop, 30 amp bkr-Dryer.
Than a 60 amp bkr feeds the lower buses which house branch circuits and one additional 30 amp bkr for a wall ac unit.

Reasons for upgrade
Building a detached shop out back. Looking for 60-100 amps out there.
AC system install in home.
Generator interlock wanted.

I don't want to knock down the closet as it houses water meter/phone/cable entrances.
So looking to move new panel close by to avoid needing a service disconnect outside.
Use old panel as junction box to connect branch circuits.

Would flush out top part of that wall for new panel which would also provide a chase for wiring. Will check with insp on clearances for sure.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Replacement would be a Siemens PL series 40/40 copper.

 

[Stuff]

Most service upgrades will let you slide if using same location as old panel.

Split bus panels were mainly to go beyond 100 amps. #2 copper would have been good for 125 amps.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like a couple bryant/BR and GE breakers in the existing panel.

 

[davetulk]

Hard to see from the picture.

Do you have space above and below the existing panel? Can you just swap the existing panel for a new one with more circuits? I think I would bite the bullet and replace and bump up the service same time if possible....I know it will mean an external disconnect but keeps everything in your existing closet, gives room to grow circuit wise and supports the 100amp you want in shop, AC, gen interlock etc.

Without load calc for hard to say if 100amp will be enough to add all you want to, even though 100 can go far.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Looks like a couple bryant/BR and GE breakers in the existing panel.

Wylie,
You're right. I think theres even a Murray bkr too. The only thing I did in this panel was throw a GenTran 6 ckt switch in there back in the 90's. We'd lose power anytime wind was + 25mph. Sometimes up to 3 days to regain service...
Better now, POCO caught up on tree maintenance.
\ Want to get the mess straightened up.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Hard to see from the picture.

Do you have space above and below the existing panel? Can you just swap the existing panel for a new one with more circuits? I think I would bite the bullet and replace and bump up the service same time if possible....I know it will mean an external disconnect but keeps everything in your existing closet, gives room to grow circuit wise and supports the 100amp you want in shop, AC, gen interlock etc.

Without load calc for hard to say if 100amp will be enough to add all you want to, even though 100 can go far.

That is what I'm trying to do Dave. I do have vertical room for a full 40 space panel.
Been here almost 30 years basically working off 60 amp branch circuit breaker....not many trips during that time.
The primary additional load in new shop will be 5K elec heat. All other loads there will just be same as I used to use in attached garage bay.
Hope inspector lets me replace in the closet.
Thanks, Skiffbuilder.

 

[shaggyant]

Not to throw a wrench in the works but have you considered switching to a meter main? Then you could turn your existing panel and shop panel into subs off the meter main. 100 amps in a shop with electric heat could be slim depending on your BTU requirements.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Not to throw a wrench in the works but have you considered switching to a meter main? Then you could turn your existing panel and shop panel into subs off the meter main. 100 amps in a shop with electric heat could be slim depending on your BTU requirements.

shaggyant,
Yes, that is option #3. It would let me move what is now the main panel in the house at the cost/time of extra cabling. It would make it a little easier also to feed the shop.
I had to use a meter /main in the other house I had to raise. Cost was about $300.

Thks, Skiff

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hard to see from the picture.

Do you have space above and below the existing panel? Can you just swap the existing panel for a new one with more circuits? I think I would bite the bullet and replace and bump up the service same time if possible....I know it will mean an external disconnect but keeps everything in your existing closet, gives room to grow circuit wise and supports the 100amp you want in shop, AC, gen interlock etc.

Without load calc for hard to say if 100amp will be enough to add all you want to, even though 100 can go far.

Current code prohibits panels in closets for good reason

If he changes that panel, it will need to adhere to current code.

 

[shaggyant]

Current code prohibits panels in closets for good reason

If he changes that panel, it will need to adhere to current code.

That’s one of the reasons I suggest running a meter main. He says his current meter is directly outside of the existing panel back to back. He would be able to leave his current panel in place and only configure to a separate neutral. Any added house circuits and the sub feed for his shop could be pulled from the new upgraded 200 amp meter main. No drywall or interior remodeling needed.

For bonus points he could upgrade to a 200amp service with no extra parts or work on his part.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That’s one of the reasons I suggest running a meter main. He says his current meter is directly outside of the existing panel back to back. He would be able to leave his current panel in place and only configure to a separate neutral. Any added house circuits and the sub feed for his shop could be pulled from the new upgraded 200 amp meter main. No drywall or interior remodeling needed.

Yeah meter mains are great. Gives easy options for branch feeders to detached buildings.

Out here in Cali, thats almost exclusively what is used.

I think the OP wants to replace panel regardless as he is outta room.

 

[yeldogt]

Doing a meter main is a great solution -- I did one at my beach house years ago. It allowed me to keep the old panel as a sub and we branched off to two additional panels (garage and addition)

In my case the service was on the side of the house and we used a small one with only a few spots ... I think it had the main and enough for three subs (six spaces). A full load center is large and hard to hide.

 

[ddawg16]

Except for the garage, I don't like have panels in the house. Takes up wall space that could be used for other stuff.

The only time I go to my panel is when I want to work on a ckt. And mine is easy to get to outside.

 

[Norcal]

Except for the garage, I don't like have panels in the house. Takes up wall space that could be used for other stuff.

The only time I go to my panel is when I want to work on a ckt. And mine is easy to get to outside.

Easterners do not like their panels outside, if the area got a lot of snow I would agree, but I do like a main outside rather then have it in some odd location indoors.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Yeah meter mains are great. Gives easy options for branch feeders to detached buildings.

Out here in Cali, thats almost exclusively what is used.

I think the OP wants to replace panel regardless as he is outta room.

Thanks Guys, I like the meter /main idea a lot.It's worked well on the other house. My concern this house is the old panel in the closet. I can live with it as a sub panel , but one day I'm going to sell this place, don't want to have to move closet panel as a condition of sale after doing the other work.

Gonna have a few things to talk to inspector about.

In the Highlands of New Jersey- mountains and watershed land. The Wx station 1000 yards from home holds NJ record on snowfall. We get quite a bit, but would not bother me on outdoor panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You shouldnt need to move the panel out of the closet, if you dont mess with it, to sell the house. Its grandfathered in...

 

[ard]

You shouldnt need to move the panel out of the closet, if you dont mess with it, to sell the house. Its grandfathered in...

OP said someone built the closet AFTER the panel was installed/inspected....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP said someone built the closet AFTER the panel was installed/inspected....

And judging by the vintage of the panel, it may have been done prior to the code change prohibiting panels in closets which was in the early 80s if memory serves me correct.

 

[Norcal]

And judging by the vintage of the panel, it may have been done prior to the code change prohibiting panels in closets which was in the early 80s if memory serves me correct.

That panel is a ITE Circuit Breaker Company, Walker Div model, Damn nice panels with plated copper bus, but they are pre CTL type.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The Code says this:
(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.

If it's like you say " houses water meter/phone/cable entrances" , then it's not a clothes closet at all, but rather an equipment closet.

 

[ard]

The Code says this:
(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.

If it's like you say " houses water meter/phone/cable entrances" , then it's not a clothes closet at all, but rather an equipment closet.

You are jsut looking up the word closet... it is not just what is or is not in the closet. As long as your 'equipment closet' also meets access requirements...

 

[alfredeneuman]

You are jsut looking up the word closet... it is not just what is or is not in the closet. As long as your 'equipment closet' also meets access requirements...

If the metering equipment is already in the closet, then.........

It was more a response to the notion that "Current code prohibits panels in closets for good reason"

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If the metering equipment is already in the closet, then.........

It was more a response to the notion that "Current code prohibits panels in closets for good reason"

The good reason i was hinting at was ignitable materials such as coats...

I forgot about him saying there was other metering equipment in the closet so it could be deemed a utility closet...

 

[Skiff Builder]

So I got down to talk to the electrical inspector today-asked if I could replace the panel and leave it in the closet. I just got the "look" for a few seconds.....
" Your improving your electric system, of course you can leave it in the closet. Your making things better. Put it anywhere you want, just not in a bathroom!"
Happy to hear that, will keep things simple. This closet will be used just for the utility entrances.

I guess I should get all my boat building sundries out of there-Acetone/Lacquer Thinner/Turp/Xylene/Japan Drier/CoalTar/Denatured Alcohol/MEKP Just kidding!

Asked about the feeder cable to the shop, if he'd be okay with 2/2/2/4 MHF. Seemed like he had not heard of using it for that. Took out his big book to look it up- found nothing on it. Said as long as it meets req for burial etc he's ok with it.

Thanks much. to all. for all the great input.
Skiff