wow things have changed!

[DCarr2]

while researching suitable property, to build myt barndominium, I came across a house, that I decided the jump on... needs a little work, but, is suitable for my needs...

At the new house is a 35x46' pole barn... with 18' ceiling...

the floor, is commercial grade asphalt which I plan to top coat with 4-6' of concrete.

the building is currently unheated, yet has what appears to be styrofoam ridgid insulation between the posts, and the walls are finished with OSB... there is no ceiling...

So here is my plan regarding the now shop...

Pull off all the osb, and spray a good exterior, latex paint directly to the inside of the wall cavities, resecure, and possibly add insulation in the wall cavities, and reinstall the OSB panelling.

then prime and paint the OSB, hang a OSB ceiling as well, and paint that too.. I am thinking, 12" of blown in insulation above the ceiling should be adequate for Buffalo NY? at the peak of the roof, is one of those square vent boxes (forget what their called) that vents the attic...

once the OSB is back up, and primed/painted, have the concrete floor poured, with 1" ridgid foam insulation around the edges of the concrete, so the concrete is not in direct contact with the OSB....

After that I can begin doing basic wiring and start moving my stuff into the new shop...

the new shop has its own 200A service and meter, Ill be running water from the house which is fairly close this summer...

As far as heat, I spoke with NOCO who said theyd install a tank and stuff for free if i buy my propane from them...

just need a used furnace now...

thoughts?

Update: Pics!

directly to my right is the back of the pole barn

 

[LXCam]

I wouldn't pour on top of that asphalt. Two things, one there is no where for the moisture to go while the concrete is curing, it'll spider crack badly. The other concern would be asphalt will contract and expand at a different rate and you'll windup with major cracking. That could be mitigated by using rebar so the slab is it own structure and floats on the asphalt, but If it where the asphalt would come out.

 

[PugetDude]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitetopping

 

[gungatim]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitetopping

I was afraid to click on that link, but did anyway...that's what I like about this site, always learn something new.

OP, setting the tank, lines, and regulator(s) are typically done for free by the propane company when you sign up, at least around here. Don't believe they will do it, however, until you have your gas plumbing completed and pressure tested by them, so you may want to check first, meaning get your furnace all set and plumbed before they can set the tank.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Why do you want to paint the back side of the tin ? I would hire a spray foam contractor and have him hit all the seam and gaps and apply about 1-2" across all of the tin. If done right, this will give you a good moisture barrier, better than anything you can apply.

12" in the ceiling is the MINIMUM in you area. 18" is NOT crazy !

I would ask around about concrete over asphalt. I think in the end, you would be better off ripping it out, laying a moisture barrier and AT LEAST 2" of foam board down before pouring a concrete slab. Dig a trench about 12-18" deep around the perimeter and install 18-24" tall 2" foam board to prevent heat loss out the sides.

Yes, this is a lot of work and a lot of $$$, but you will save a lot on propane !

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . congrats on the new shop in progress. Sounds promising.

UPDATE GJ Profile with a Location so you can get best advice from GJer's.

Within the first post . . . it does say Buffalo, NY . . . that's plenty COLD !!!

 

[Lassen Forge]

I hope you meant 4-6 inches, not 4-6 feet - that's one hell of a monolithic block of concrete for a floor! (and yeah, if that's the case, that little ribbon of asphalt under it won't matter at all...)

Unless you need the asphalt as a moisture barrier, you will end up having problems with it down the road being under your slab, and tho it's more time and $$ it would be worth breaking it out (jackhammer work) and putting a more conventional base under it FOR drainage, settlement, etc.

The only other thing I would look into - owning your tanks VS leasing from one company. If they're your tanks you can have ANYONE fill them, and shop for the cheapest price for propane. If they belong to one company you are locked into their gas services (and prices) forever. One of our local gas companies was selling reconditioned tanks out here for a buck a gallon capacity. They still fill our tanks, but if they go under or they decide they want to charge $10 a gallon, we can go to their competitor and buy from them.

 

[rburke65]

Wow it sounds like a great project and a good sized shop! We need pictures....

 

[DCarr2]

the major issue here is time and money.

I am on a very tight time scale, (to physically move from my current location, to the new location will take me and a friend or two 3-4 weeks, 8hrs a day 5 days a week) and the money issue is there is no bank involvement, and no bank is touching me or my property...

as far as spray foam insulation the estimates I have received are between 10-12K for spray foam. I have a budget of about $10,000 to do everything that needs to be done in the new building, to get me moved in.

the building, was erected in the middle of a 'parking lot' of sorts, the previous owner had a successful demolition company and used to park semis with bulldozers on them where the barn was built... the old barn was literally falling over, so they built this pole barn as a replacement.

the asphalt is solid.. and its not that nice smooth driveway kind, its that rough hasnt been finished with a nice layer of asphalt, kind...

I did speak with a couple concrete guys about it, and they said that it should work out alright... I am hoping to go concrete because the alshalt is so dark and id imagine a pita to keep clean...I dont think you can paint asphalt...

 

[ScottsGT]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitetopping

Great to be able to put a name to it! Where I work downtown there is an intersection that used to be one of those rutted out asphalt intersections. Ruts were almost 8-9" deep at the worst times. About 10-15 years back they wanted to try an experimental fix. They dug up the entire intersection/roadway. Put down a new crush and run base, new asphalt in the middle, but at the stop light areas that kept getting rutted out, they put down a deeper asphalt base and then covered with concrete. After it cured a few days, they cut the concrete into 3' squares that would break on through and allow the squares to float on top of the asphalt.
It is a smooth today as it was the day they built it.

2 years back we had a major portion of I-20 rebuilt and they used the whitetopping method. I would drive by and watch the asphalt go down during the day and get rolled flat and by the next morning it was white concrete. They ran all the concrete trucks during the night.

BTW, I'm very envious of your shop!

 

[matt_i]

I would think the concrete topping OK but I'd be a little worried about rolling a loaded concrete truck over it during the pour and damaging it. That said, the "rough" asphalt is commonly 2x as thick as the "residential driveway grade" and if done to the same standard, supports all kinds of trucks if the subgrade is hard enough (spring thaw or mushy conditions would derate it a lot) Usual urging to put in steel reinforcement in your crete. I think I'd go with a 3-1/2" thick slab, the 5.5"-6" would be for really heavy stuff. Don't know how it will react with ground moisture. I think I'd still do a vapor barrier and err on the side of caution.

One problem with your timetable is ideally you want to give concrete 28 days to cure before loading it up.....

 

[kv501]

the major issue here is time and money.

I am on a very tight time scale, (to physically move from my current location, to the new location will take me and a friend or two 3-4 weeks, 8hrs a day 5 days a week) and the money issue is there is no bank involvement, and no bank is touching me or my property...

as far as spray foam insulation the estimates I have received are between 10-12K for spray foam. I have a budget of about $10,000 to do everything that needs to be done in the new building, to get me moved in.

the building, was erected in the middle of a 'parking lot' of sorts, the previous owner had a successful demolition company and used to park semis with bulldozers on them where the barn was built... the old barn was literally falling over, so they built this pole barn as a replacement.

the asphalt is solid.. and its not that nice smooth driveway kind, its that rough hasnt been finished with a nice layer of asphalt, kind...

I did speak with a couple concrete guys about it, and they said that it should work out alright... I am hoping to go concrete because the alshalt is so dark and id imagine a pita to keep clean...I dont think you can paint asphalt...

Wouldn't do that if I were you. My employer tried that with two of our outdoor storage buildings and it was a disaster. They were even warned by the concrete place and had a release in the contract about the cracking they said would happen. And it did. It's funny that you had concrete guys telling you it was ok because the ones I've talked to all said bad idea.

The problem here is it isn't an easy one to fix if it goes bad. After a few freeze/thaw cycles you're going to have what amounts to a floating floor on top of the asphalt, and once that separation happens with dissimilar materials you're going to have cracks. It's your shop but I just know I wouldn't chance such an expensive part of a project.

Wikipedia's not what I'd call a good source for feasibility.

 

[HemiRamOn22s]

2" of spray foam is around r-14. skip the batt insulation on the walls. Then 18" of blown in insulation in the ceiling.

 

[DCarr2]

Wouldn't do that if I were you. My employer tried that with two of our outdoor storage buildings and it was a disaster. They were even warned by the concrete place and had a release in the contract about the cracking they said would happen. And it did. It's funny that you had concrete guys telling you it was ok because the ones I've talked to all said bad idea.

The problem here is it isn't an easy one to fix if it goes bad. After a few freeze/thaw cycles you're going to have what amounts to a floating floor on top of the asphalt, and once that separation happens with dissimilar materials you're going to have cracks. It's your shop but I just know I wouldn't chance such an expensive part of a project.

Wikipedia's not what I'd call a good source for feasibility.

Since im no expert and value you guys opinions, I am going to look into finishing the asphalt with a good top layer and maybe paint it.

 

[bigvic]

If the asphalt is in good condition and somewhat level, but just rough. Why don't you look into covering it with the snap together garage tiles? You would end up with a good looking floor that's easy to keep clean and roll around on. Also, the install would be super simple and cheaper/faster than a concrete overlay.

 

[kgordon]

I'm still confused why your going to pull the osb and paint the wall cavity. Its primarily metal. I would only pull the OSB if there is no insulation, and add faced batts if spray foam is too expensive. I would go at least 18" of blow in for the attic space, thought probably would like 24" being in this climate. Rent the machine and do it yourself to save money, its not hard. Why not get a topping course of asphalt? That will be smooth. Why do you need to paint it? Seems like money could be saved by not painting the floor.

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 on NOT putting the concrete over top of asphalt. You're just asking for trouble in cold climate of Buffalo, NY.

BETTER solution . . . . . live with the asphalt for number of years AS IS.

Save up money to tear out and put in RADIANT heated floor w/ new concrete!!

 

[tomroblee]

Not may concrete suggestions, but a lot of "points to ponder."

I known several folks (and read posts from others) who used blown dry cellulose insulation in wall cavities like what you have. They seemed happy with the short term results, but I haven't had any reports based on long term usage. It sure sounds easier than removing and replacing the OSB on your walls.

They make a special "vapor barrier" paint for instances where a vapor barrier was not originally installed. I don't know how it compares with sheet plastic, but it sounds easier than removing and replacing the OSB. It's hard to estimate the need for vapor barrier without knowing the amount water that will be introduced into the building and the amount of ventilation it will have.

As everybody has said, more insulation in the ceiling is better. However, there isn't going to be room for much insulation where the side walls meet the roof. I would consider either sloping the ceiling or building a "lowered trey" ceiling next to the side walls just to gain more room for insulation.

It sounds like you may want to install a cupola for an (exhaust) vent on the roof. If you do, spend a few extra $$ and install a weather vane on top of it. You will be amazed at how often you look at it.

An exhaust vent doesn't do much unless you also have intake vents. You obviously can't have the typical soffit vents since you don't have any overhang or soffits.

The pictures seem to show a lot of light on the inside at the ridge. Do you have a clear plastic ridge cap? I have one in my unfinished barn and love it. However, I've heard that sunlight can damage the plastic after a decade or two. If you are installing a ceiling, you might want to replace any plastic ridge cap with a metal one.

The pictures shows some light between the end walls and the roof. When you add a ceiling and insulation, you might want to seal these to prevent blowing rain/snow from entering and wetting the insulation (or do you need the cracks for ventilation?)

It looks like your trusses are 4' on center. This will be good for adding a ceiling, but you should determine whether or not the trusses are rated for the weight of the ceiling and insulation.

The separate 200 amp service (and meter) sounds like a plus, but you might want to consult with your electric utility to determine if it is the best option. All electric utilities seem to charge a fixed amount for every account (meter). The fixed charge on my house in Indianapolis is $10 per month and the charge on my rural house in SW Indiana is $30 per month. The separate meter for the building MAY have been required if the home was on residential rates and the building was on commercial rates. (commercial rates are generally higher than residential rates.) Some utilities have rates that vary with the amount of KWH used. If the rate drops when usage increases, you would be better with a single meter. If the rate increases when usage increases, you will be better off with two meters. A lot of utilities offer rebates if the customer installs a heat pump. It sounds like you are on a limited cash budget, but it doesn't cost much to at least explore your options. Most utilities seem to have information about rates (except for the riders) and rebates on their websites. (if you don't know the general amount of the riders, talking about rates would be about the same as a geezer like me say that I am 25 (years old) plus shipping and handling.

 

[Shott8283]

where in buffalo? nice score.. thats a great shell for a shop!!

 

[WNYflyer]

Congratulation on your new pole barn which came with a house

Funny, I looked at the first photo and said damn the land/topography looks like around here then I saw the Buffalo reference.

 

[kelzamos]

Congratulations! But I feel you will find the barn too small and will need to add on...LOL.

 

[ssdave]

I'm going to put in a dissenting opinion here.

My opinion is that you can construct a slab on top of the asphalt, and not only will it be okay, it will actually be better than if you tore out the asphalt.

There are a couple of things you need to do to make it work correctly, but they're a lot easier and less expensive than taking out the asphalt. The three things that could go wrong with the slab on top of asphalt are:

1) Plastic shrinkage cracking caused by the differential in moisture between the top that loses moisture to bleed water and air dries and the bottom that can't lose moisture due to the impervious asphalt layer. Plastic shrinkage cracking occurs as the concrete first sets, but before it appreciably hardens and cures. Plastic shrinkage cracking is a risk anytime when you have an impervious layer under the concrete, relatively high water/cement ratio, and conditions that dry out the surface quickly.
2) Slab curling caused by slow moisture loss to the surface over time as the concrete fully cures.
3) Expansion/contraction due to different material properties of asphalt and concrete causing problems.

Problems 1 and 3 can be cured easily by placing a half inch of sand over the asphalt before placing the concrete. The sand layer will act as a stress relief layer to allow the asphalt and concrete to shrink/expand at different rates. The sand layer will also allow the concrete to dewater through the bottom, and decrease the likelyhood of plastic shrinkage cracking occurring.

You can also address the plastic shrinkage cracking through several different techniques. One is to use a super plasticizer to place the concrete with less water. Another is to just plan for what happens if plastic shrinkage cracking occurs as you are finishing the cement. If it does, and the bleed water is all gone, just power trowel the concrete as much as you can, and the re-consolidation of the surface will help. Plastic shrinkage cracking is really more cosmetic than anything, so if it does occur, just epoxy fill the cracks and live with it. A third thing you can do is cover the concrete as soon as it is hard troweled and firm enough you can get on it with plastic sheeting. The plastic sheeting will hold in the moisture and help minimize cracking and drying. Leave the plastic on for a minimum of 3 days, and preferably at least a week. You will want to remove it and saw cut crack control joints in the surface as soon as the saw will go through the concrete without tearing it. Usually 4 to 12 hours. Then, put the plastic back on and leave it as long as you can. A month wouldn't hurt, and would help with defect #2, slab curling. The surface will get mottled colors from the moisture, but will have a side benefit of being much stronger than concrete that is not wet cured.

The second defect, slab curling, is much harder to cure. It is caused by the concrete shrinking as it dries out, and the bottom dries out slower than the top, so the slab edges curl up. The plastic sheeting will help, as the concrete will cure more before it dries out. Saw cutting will help also, as the saw cut breaks the shrinkage tension, so the slab will curl less. To be truthful, I don't think in a pole barn this will be too much of an issue, like it would be in a warehouse floor that runs forklifts on it.

So, I'd go for it, as long as my concrete guys knew to use a sand drainage/stress relief layer, and were willing to wet cure the concrete surface using plastic sheet.

Good luck!