Wrap-around Lean-to pitch question

[etex]

Hi, building a wrap-around lean to. One side will be 11 feet wide, the other will be 8.5.
My question is...even though the widths are different, if the ledgers and headers are all the same (same height/level), should the rafters on the short side land on the header and sit upon the ledger just like they do on the wider side?

i.e. Does the pitch transfer around the corner of the building regardless of the widths of the two sides involved?

I thought that it should but the reason I am asking is:

1. so on side W (wider side) I have ledger installed. I cut 12ft 2x6 with 1/12 pitch and held it up..looks beautiful.


2. The header is level all the way around. Wouldn't accept anything less than perfect as I went along. At the corner of the two headers I placed a 4 foot level touching both headers and it was perfect. I then found a realllly straight 12ft stick of whitewood and placed it across both headers giving me a wider test of the two directions of the headers,,,perfectly level.

However, on side S (shorter side)when I place one of the aforementioned 1/12 rafters on the short section of header, it will not seat up against the ledger, only the first inch of the bottom of the rafter touches...pic attached

Disclaimer: I dont have the Side S ledger installed yet, Im making sure everything is cool before I go screwing the second ledger into the side of my metal shop. So I held the rafter to the end cut of the existing ledger, which would be the same as if I had installed the short side ledger already since they **** up. If the second ledger was installed I would just be moving the test rafter over a few inches, but everything would still be the same.

Any guidance on this new territory for me would be greatly appreciated. Its holding me up while Im off but Im afraid to move on until someone can set me straight about whats going on. I get tired of ripping out my mistakes. ha THANK YOU!!

 

[dutchgray]

The longer span will need to be at a lower pitch than the shorter span if the difference in the plate heights is the same for both sections (which you have stated they are.)

 

[readhead]

If the ledger and the headers are the same height you will have a ******* hip (not 45 degrees) and the pitch will be different on each side.

 

[Youngandfree]

.

 

[Zeke]

I've done this once so I know what you're facing. This is the only article I could find and it makes it complicated. If you can get through the reading then you should be able to do this. I did it somewhat differently and my facia does not line up. But it works as it is really a patio cover. I did not want different height beams at the open end. And I wanted equal overhangs. You can't have both and have the facia line up.

https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/roofing/joining-unequally-pitched-roofs_o

 

[readhead]

The only way to have the same pitch is to raise the header on the narrow side. If you keep the headers the same height then the overhang can not be equal on both sides if you want the fascia to wrap around at the same height.

Kind of like what Zeke said.

 

[etex]

The only way to have the same pitch is to raise the header on the narrow side. If you keep the headers the same height then the overhang can not be equal on both sides if you want the fascia to wrap around at the same height.

Kind of like what Zeke said.

thanks for reply, i knew something had to give just wasnt sure what my options were. Im thinking fascia like Zeke.

 

[etex]

I've done this once so I know what you're facing. This is the only article I could find and it makes it complicated. If you can get through the reading then you should be able to do this. I did it somewhat differently and my facia does not line up. But it works as it is really a patio cover. I did not want different height beams at the open end. And I wanted equal overhangs. You can't have both and have the facia line up.

https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/roofing/joining-unequally-pitched-roofs_o

thanks a million zeke for link. I will read through it twice, slowly. I looked for hours on a good article but knew I wasnt wording it right.
Thanks

Hi, building a wrap-around lean to. One side will be 11 feet wide, the other will be 8.5.
My question is...even though the widths are different, if the ledgers and headers are all the same (same height/level), should the rafters on the short side land on the header and sit upon the ledger just like they do on the wider side?

i.e. Does the pitch transfer around the corner of the building regardless of the widths of the two sides involved?

I thought that it should but the reason I am asking is:

1. so on side W (wider side) I have ledger installed. I cut 12ft 2x6 with 1/12 pitch and held it up..looks beautiful.


2. The header is level all the way around. Wouldn't accept anything less than perfect as I went along. At the corner of the two headers I placed a 4 foot level touching both headers and it was perfect. I then found a realllly straight 12ft stick of whitewood and placed it across both headers giving me a wider test of the two directions of the headers,,,perfectly level.

However, on side S (shorter side)when I place one of the aforementioned 1/12 rafters on the short section of header, it will not seat up against the ledger, only the first inch of the bottom of the rafter touches...pic attached

Disclaimer: I dont have the Side S ledger installed yet, Im making sure everything is cool before I go screwing the second ledger into the side of my metal shop. So I held the rafter to the end cut of the existing ledger, which would be the same as if I had installed the short side ledger already since they **** up. If the second ledger was installed I would just be moving the test rafter over a few inches, but everything would still be the same.

Any guidance on this new territory for me would be greatly appreciated. Its holding me up while Im off but Im afraid to move on until someone can set me straight about whats going on. I get tired of ripping out my mistakes. ha THANK YOU!!

Thanks for again for everyones replies.

My wife has designated my Saturday as "help me get everything ready for in-laws coming over tonight" day....but I was able to slip out to the shop and found that about 4 inch height increase on the short side header is what its going to take to satisfy the 1/12 rafter.

This forum is awesome. Two weeks ago the biggest thing I ever built was a set of bookshelves...now im reading articles on bastards hips.... thx zeke


Im trying to exhaust all options before ripping out the header, even though I know its the thing to do

i dont really care about the fascia lining up but that means the roofing material wont line up...i really just want the roof to be on the same pitch all the way around and like Redhead said..the only way to keep the pitch is to raise the short side header...

The header I made consists of outside boards temporarily joined with scabs and clamps ( i did not join them at the posts so that it would be staggered) and then i cut boards to the inside of the posts and toenailed them to to the posts and screwed them to the outside band...it took a little cussin and lot of patience, planing down some big crowns that i didnt notice when I bought the lumber to get this header decent...I then ran 6 inch x 1/4 timberlocks into the posts....i reaaaallly dont want to rip it out....ha. maybe if i can pull the nails on the inside boards, take the timberlocks out I can raise the header somehow with a cpl ppl.

what if i screwed on 4 inches of material where each rafter will sit?
im in the woods and subject to codes.. i know this is janky but is it something to even entertain?

 

[Zeke]

If you don't need exactly 4" then stand a 2 x 4 on its edge on top of your beam. Also you can cheat a little on the birdsmouth to raise the rafter that last 1/2".

You shouldn't have any issues code wise if you use clips. And use some hardware on the vertical 2 x 4. Place it at the outer edge.

 

[billconner]

You could lower the ledger on the building and lower header/fascia would all be the same and aligned. Hip would still not be 45.

 

[Zeke]

You could lower the ledger on the building and lower header/fascia would all be the same and aligned. Hip would still not be 45.

The ledgers have to meet at the same intersection at the non 45º hip in order for the roofs to meet evenly. Yes, one will have different pitch but the meeting point is adjusted by the hip rafter not being at 45. So to lower one ledger WRT to the other would require some kind of cricket to step down to the roof attached at the lower ledger.

People don't often build like this because it is not easy to frame. I first saw this on a Dutch gable roof where the Dutch ends were shorter bringing the ridge of the DG closer to the end of the roof overhang. I assumed this made more legal headroom on the 2nd story.

And it didn't look bad at all. I would do it this way if I was building a DG house.

I did a patio cover where I wanted a level facia and level with the existing. This required me to frame onto the existing roof "California" wise. I didn't want any where near 45º hips, more like, 15 so that the underside didn't look like a big triangle. I hired 2 experienced framers and they said it couldn't be done. The jack rafters at the end of the hip were so small I just beveled a 2x and nailed it in the roof plane. To give you a wild guess on pitch, the main roof was 2:12 and the little pie shapes were almost 12:12.

Well, it got done but I might as well done it myself. They argued with me and each other. I ended up firing them and they ended up in a fight in the street blaming each other. One had a shovel and I called the cops. I paid them, that was not the problem. While on the phone they booked.

 

[Zeke]

This is a 30 degree hip. Sorry about the sun. I can take better pics at night. I have a bunch on a drive somewhere, but I just shot these for the conversation.

 

[etex]

The ledgers have to meet at the same intersection at the non 45º hip in order for the roofs to meet evenly. Yes, one will have different pitch but the meeting point is adjusted by the hip rafter not being at 45. So to lower one ledger WRT to the other would require some kind of cricket to step down to the roof attached at the lower ledger.

People don't often build like this because it is not easy to frame. I first saw this on a Dutch gable roof where the Dutch ends were shorter bringing the ridge of the DG closer to the end of the roof overhang. I assumed this made more legal headroom on the 2nd story.

And it didn't look bad at all. I would do it this way if I was building a DG house.

I did a patio cover where I wanted a level facia and level with the existing. This required me to frame onto the existing roof "California" wise. I didn't want any where near 45º hips, more like, 15 so that the underside didn't look like a big triangle. I hired 2 experienced framers and they said it couldn't be done. The jack rafters at the end of the hip were so small I just beveled a 2x and nailed it in the roof plane. To give you a wild guess on pitch, the main roof was 2:12 and the little pie shapes were almost 12:12.

Well, it got done but I might as well done it myself. They argued with me and each other. I ended up firing them and they ended up in a fight in the street blaming each other. One had a shovel and I called the cops. I paid them, that was not the problem. While on the phone they booked.

thanks for saying the ledgers need to line up..i was thinking about that as an option until I saw your posts.. Thanks for those pics too.
what if....i left everything as is...and cut the pitch of the short side rafters to be what i needs to sit good. (havent figure out what that ******* pitch is yet but about to)
will they be level with the wide side 1/12 pitch cut so the roofing material sit level all the way around?



also, a friend of mine told me to make my hip rafter out of 2 boards and cut them at 45 so that I can fasten them to the last few inches of the ledger corner in each direction...all of the examples I find online, even though they are house examples with a ridge beam and not a 90 degree ledger, look like they would have the king rafters nailed into the ends of the ledgers and then cut a single board hip rafter so they end looks like a pencil point, wedge it in between the two kings and then fasten it between the two kings. the way a buddy suggested has the two board hip wrapping around each side of the corner...then I guess my king placement would be right next to where the end cuts of where the hip rafter stops.

does this make sense? what would you do? if i do it his way, i am able to nail the hip cuts into ledger face where as the other i guess i would toenail the rafter into the kings? is his way too complicated for a lean to.

sorry if im bugging you too much, I really dont have anybody in my circle that knows much about building...thanks for all of your direction.

 

[Firstram]

thanks for saying the ledgers need to line up..i was thinking about that as an option until I saw your posts.. Thanks for those pics too.
what if....i left everything as is...and cut the pitch of the short side rafters to be what i needs to sit good. (havent figure out what that ******* pitch is yet but about to)
will they be level with the wide side 1/12 pitch cut so the roofing material sit level all the way around?



also, a friend of mine told me to make my hip rafter out of 2 boards and cut them at 45 so that I can fasten them to the last few inches of the ledger corner in each direction...all of the examples I find online, even though they are house examples with a ridge beam and not a 90 degree ledger, look like they would have the king rafters nailed into the ends of the ledgers and then cut a single board hip rafter so they end looks like a pencil point, wedge it in between the two kings and then fasten it between the two kings. the way a buddy suggested has the two board hip wrapping around each side of the corner...then I guess my king placement would be right next to where the end cuts of where the hip rafter stops.

does this make sense? what would you do? if i do it his way, i am able to nail the hip cuts into ledger face where as the other i guess i would toenail the rafter into the kings? is his way too complicated for a lean to.

sorry if im bugging you too much, I really dont have anybody in my circle that knows much about building...thanks for all of your direction.

I would run a double hip in this situation. I only say that because the pitch is so low, 1:17ish, a single 2x8 may sag.

If you are only using 12' material for the rafters, the eave overhang is about a foot. There should only be about a half inch difference in height at the facia with the 2 different pitches. This can be compensated for by adjusting the bird mouths, a little deeper on the long side and shallower on the short side.

Do a full scale layout on the garage floor with the tops of the rafters flush at the facia and ledger. The layout will show you the pitch and notch sizes.

 

[billconner]

thanks for saying the ledgers need to line up

Depending on main view, I still think this could work. There would be a vertical surface along hip, flashed like a sidewalk. It would look fine until you got a third or halfway around to that side. Kind of strange if viewed regularly from that side. I could imagine a few cases where it would make sense and be worth it.

Probably simpler to have uneven pitch and non 45° hip. Shingle exposure could be reduced so same number of courses.

 

[Firstram]

Shingle exposure could be reduced so same number of courses.

Hopefully tin, shingles won't work on 1:12 pitch.

 

[Zeke]

thanks for saying the ledgers need to line up..i was thinking about that as an option until I saw your posts.. Thanks for those pics too.
what if....i left everything as is...and cut the pitch of the short side rafters to be what i needs to sit good. (havent figure out what that ******* pitch is yet but about to)
will they be level with the wide side 1/12 pitch cut so the roofing material sit level all the way around?



also, a friend of mine told me to make my hip rafter out of 2 boards and cut them at 45 so that I can fasten them to the last few inches of the ledger corner in each direction...all of the examples I find online, even though they are house examples with a ridge beam and not a 90 degree ledger, look like they would have the king rafters nailed into the ends of the ledgers and then cut a single board hip rafter so they end looks like a pencil point, wedge it in between the two kings and then fasten it between the two kings. the way a buddy suggested has the two board hip wrapping around each side of the corner...then I guess my king placement would be right next to where the end cuts of where the hip rafter stops.

does this make sense? what would you do? if i do it his way, i am able to nail the hip cuts into ledger face where as the other i guess i would toenail the rafter into the kings? is his way too complicated for a lean to.

sorry if im bugging you too much, I really dont have anybody in my circle that knows much about building...thanks for all of your direction.

That would be the way I would do it. But depending on the layout from the other end, the last king might not make it exactly to that point. Mine didn't because I built inside of 2 existing house walls that were at right angles. It took a couple days to get even rafter spacing on the long side. Because it is basically a stick cover spacing could be anything. You might notice my jacks don't line up. Again, even spacing was the goal. Divide the distance like building stairs.